The burden of proof

[athorist]

What I wonder is this: Is the burdon of proof on the person that claims a specific deity to exist, or is the burdon of proof on those who claim that it does not exist?

If the burdon of proof is on the person denying the existance of supernatural entities, that would mean that by default any religion is true. It would mean that the tooth-fairy, Santa, and invisible pink unicorns do exist, since it is not possible to disprove their existance. Since most of worlds religions do contradict each other at some point we are forced to conclude that the burdon of proof is on the believer.

I have not seen any reasonable argument against this, and to be honest I am not holding my breath. Nevertheless, I'd be interested on how christians can be sure that their specific brand of christianity is the right one. Any takers?

 

[salida]

I'm glad you asked! Actually the burden of proof isn't a burden to me at all. I'm a christian spiritually first and intellectually second. Yes, I have studied other religions and none come close to this evidence. If your serious and want to do your research and homework, read The Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell (it would stand up in a court of law concerning biblical evidence) and Examine the Evidence by Muncaster (a former athiest). And The Real Jesus by Lee Strobel (a former athiest). Also, I'm a scientist - you may want to visit www.reasons.org - a PhD in Chemistry started it. No, science doesn't contract the bible - there is good science and bad science. God invented science not man. Unfortunately, many times a persons will triumphs the evidence but I'm thankful its not all the time. (The Bible has hundreds of detailed prophesies in it that has come true and more to be fulfilled). This is just one attribute out of many that the Bible could have only been written by God. He used imperfect man to do this.

Biblical Evidence – This is a very small amount of information
out of large amounts of information out there.

Internal Evidences-Prophesies that are confirmed with Bible;

mentioning only a few – but there are hundreds.

Life of Christ
The Tribe of Judah, Gen. 49:10, Luke 3:23-28
(Genesis was written 4004 BC to 1689 BC)
(Luke’s time period is 60-70 AD)

Royal Line of David, Jer 23:5, Matt 1:1
(Jeremiah 760 to 698 BC)/(Matthew 60-70 AD)

Born of a Virgin, Isaiah 7:14/Matt 1:18-23
(Isaiah 760 to 698 BC)/(60-70 AD)

Rise of Empires
In the book of Daniel, Chapter 2 – four kingdoms are described in the interpretation
of the dream of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greek – Daniel 8:21, 10:20/ and a fourth great kingdom to follow which was part iron and clay – which is the
Roman Empire – during this empire, Christ came and the church was established – Daniel 2:44.

Historical Accuracy

The Bible is loaded with historical statements concerning events of hundreds of years ago, yet
none of them has been proven to be incorrect.
(Bible compared to other ancient documents)
New Testament – starts at 25 years – between the original and surviving copies
Homer- starts at 500 years/Demosthenes – at 1400 years/Plato – at 1200 years/
Caesar – at 1000 years

Number of Manuscript Copies

New Testament – 5,686/Homer – 643/Demosthenes – 200/Plato – 7/Caesar – 10

Consistency – Written by 40 men over a period of time exceeding 1400 years, and has no
Internal inconsistencies.



Claim of Inspiration- It claims to be spoken by God, 2 Tim 3:16-17). No other religious book makes such claims.


External Evidences

(Prophesies Outside the Bible)
These cities were prophesied to be destroyed and never to be built again- and they haven’t.
Niveveh – Nahum 1:10, 3:7, 15, Zephaniah 2:13-14
Babylon – Isaiah 13:1-22
Tyre -Ezekiel 26:1-28

Bible before Science

He hangs the earth on nothing – Job 26:7
(Job was written at least 1000 years ago – some scholars think it could have been even 3000
years ago)
Note: Man only knew the above for 350 years.
Earth is a sphere – Isaiah 40:22/Air has weight – Job 28:25/
Gravity – Job 26:7, Job 38: 31-33/Winds blow in cyclones, Eccl 1:6

Documents that Prove Bible is True

Gilgamesh Epic, The Sumerian King List, Mari Tablets, Babylonian Chronicles

Archealogical Evidence (Still adding to this list today- it hasn’t stopped)
Excavations of Ur, Location of Zoar, Ziggurats and the foundation of Tower of Babel

 

[athorist]

Well, you see, the problem is, that almost all religions claim to have evidence and fullfilled prophecies, so how am I able to judge which are right and not?

And tbh, the whole prophecy thing is not new to me at all - unfortunately I have not stumbled accross a single instance that withstands rigorous comparision to observational reality. All the examples that you cited have been proven wrong times and times again - and just asserting they are true will not make them so.

As if to your assertion that God invented science: This is certainly not true. (And just because the bible says so will not make it true, imho).

EDIT: Btw, care to actually address my point? Why is the invisible pink unicorn unreal and your God is real, when the evidence for both of them is non-existent and equal standards are to apply to both?

 

[awitch]

What I wonder is this: Is the burdon of proof on the person that claims a specific deity to exist, or is the burdon of proof on those who claim that it does not exist?

The burden of proof always lies with the person making the positive assertion.

 

[Lukaris]

Is a burden of proof really necessary? What about an approach that can be plausible & sensible leading to faith in something greater and loving? Are we not approaching a point where we must breach uncertainty with faith? As St. Paul says, "For now we see through a glass darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." (1 Corinthians 13:12, KJV). This is not to counter any Christian argument in favor of proof but just a perspective to those inquiring. As far as the definition of love 1 Corinthians 13 is it.

 

[athorist]

Is a burden of proof really necessary? What about an approach that can be plausible & sensible leading to faith in something greater and loving?

But that's precisely my point: Any approach that deserves to be called sensible or plausible would require some sort of proof (or at least evidence) that it actually is plausible and sensible to believe so. Why is a specific flavour of faith more sensible and plausible than any other if both lack evidence to the same degree. Believing in invisible pink unicorns is equally plausible and sensible as believing in the abrahamitic God by your logic...

Are we not approaching a point where we must breach uncertainty with faith? As St. Paul says, "For now we see through a glass darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." (1 Corinthians 13:12, KJV). This is not to counter any Christian argument in favor of proof but just a perspective to those inquiring. As far as the definition of love 1 Corinthians 13 is it.

I'll be shockingly honest to you there: I simply could not care less about what some apostle allegedly said about this, since humans tend to say all sorts of things. Evidence is what counts when justifying any belief system over another...

 

[Lukaris]

We believe there is a reason for everything and that reason created everything. Day to day laws of science need not be disagreed upon only the underlying principle as a basis for existence (that can be an understanding of John 1:1) and to say otherwise be anti scientific. The concept of love is transcendent, eternal, & beyond matter "love is of God" (1 John 4:7) of which we can only have notions of (as best as possible is always constructive). Reason is a Biblical concept "come now, and let us reason together.." (Isaiah 1:18). Remember I am not trying to prove from my point & not contending against any Christian who is. The world often regards almost anything other than Christianity as being plausible and that is an act of faith, so the Christian puts faith in Christ.

 

[Lukaris]

Because something eternal precedes matter. If I recall, the science laws of conservation say matter & energy are neither created or destroyed. Our break with some scientists on this is that we would consider matter created and energy uncreated. From here basic science laws operate the same. The Orthodox Church has held that part of God's grace is an uncreated energy (in addition to His will) in its definition all along. The big bang is an accepted theory which indicates an energy preceding matter. I also believe the positions of Anglican priest/physicist John Polkinghorne http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Polkinghorne Have to go, only post during break at work & try to collect thoughts as fast as possible. Hope this makes sense. God bless.

 

[athorist]

We believe there is a reason for everything and that reason created everything.

That sentence is ambigous and may contain an equivocation fallacy: "The reason of something" and "Reason in the sense of reasoning" are not synonyms. But I think that may not be what you actually tried to say, so I'll run with this:

"We believe there is a reason for everything and this reason for everything is the creator of everything, too".

Which would infer that this reason created itself, since it is contained within "everything".

Day to day laws of science need not be disagreed upon only the underlying principle as a basis for existence (that can be an understanding of John 1:1) and to say otherwise be anti scientific.

Well, scripture is certainly neither proof nor evidence, so just basing your argument on an understanding of it is a pretty weak position.

The concept of love is transcendent, eternal, & beyond matter "love is of God" (1 John 4:7) of which we can only have notions of (as best as possible is always constructive). Reason is a Biblical concept "come now, and let us reason together.." (Isaiah 1:18). Remember I am not trying to prove from my point & not contending against any Christian who is.

Reason may be mentioned in the bible, but I don't think it was invented there. (Inventing the wheel requires reasoning, and the invention of the wheel is older than the bible...)

The world often regards almost anything other than Christianity as being plausible and that is an act of faith, so the Christian puts faith in Christ.

I cannot speak for the world, but from what I observe most of the world (at least the western world) seems to be pretty comfortable with Christians putting faith in Christ, as long as they do not try to force others into doing the same.

 

[athorist]

Because something eternal precedes matter. If I recall, the science laws of conservation say matter & energy are neither created or destroyed.

Careful there:

1.) Matter can be created and destroyed, the sun and nuclear weapons/reactors provide evidence for that.

2.) Matter is a specific form of energy, one might consider it as the "inner Energy" of a particle.

3.) Energy conservation is a very important law of physics, but it is actually (and many people seem to overlook this) not axiomatic. Energy conservation mathematically follows from the homegenity of time. It applies only to systems that are invariant to time-translations. That's a special case of the Noether-Theorem (it's a shame I can't link...)

Our break with some scientists on this is that we would consider matter created and energy uncreated. From here basic science laws operate the same. The Orthodox Church has held that part of God's grace is an uncreated energy (in addition to His will) in its definition all along. The big bang is an accepted theory which indicates an energy preceding matter. I also believe the positions of Anglican priest/physicist John Polkinghorne [had to snip the link here in order to be able to post] Have to go, only post during break at work & try to collect thoughts as fast as possible. Hope this makes sense. God bless.

Yeah no worries, makes sense. The problem that I see, is that if you assert God's grace as a kind of Energy, then you're not talking about the Energy concept of physics. Energy is the ability to do work. And unless you give a precise mathematical definition of what work (in the physical meaning) is done by God grace that assertion is nonsensical.

 

[ebia]

What I wonder is this: Is the burdon of proof on the person that claims a specific deity to exist, or is the burdon of proof on those who claim that it does not exist?

If the burdon of proof is on the person denying the existance of supernatural entities, that would mean that by default any religion is true. It would mean that the tooth-fairy, Santa, and invisible pink unicorns do exist, since it is not possible to disprove their existance. Since most of worlds religions do contradict each other at some point we are forced to conclude that the burdon of proof is on the believer.

I have not seen any reasonable argument against this, and to be honest I am not holding my breath. Nevertheless, I'd be interested on how christians can be sure that their specific brand of christianity is the right one. Any takers?

Burden of proof depends on context. That said, worldviews aren't changed by proof or objective evidence, but by story and relationship. And (if Christianity is true) by the power of God exericised through the prayerful and sensitively inculturated telling of the gospel.

 

[Lukaris]

That sentence is ambigous and may contain an equivocation fallacy: "The reason of something" and "Reason in the sense of reasoning" are not synonyms. But I think that may not be what you actually tried to say, so I'll run with this:

"We believe there is a reason for everything and this reason for everything is the creator of everything, too".

Which would infer that this reason created itself, since it is contained within "everything".


Well, scripture is certainly neither proof nor evidence, so just basing your argument on an understanding of it is a pretty weak position.


Reason may be mentioned in the bible, but I don't think it was invented there. (Inventing the wheel requires reasoning, and the invention of the wheel is older than the bible...)


I cannot speak for the world, but from what I observe most of the world (at least the western world) seems to be pretty comfortable with Christians putting faith in Christ, as long as they do not try to force others into doing the same.

You speak as an atheist or agnostic? The paradigm I speak from is different; John 1:1 speaks of a compatibility of a Christian understanding of a concept shared with secularism. Again, nothing is trying to be proven here but to provide an explanation from our vantage point. Our concept of reason is found in John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." The theological understanding of the Word is in the Greek word Logos & defined by the Orthodox church as "the Second Person of the Holy Trinity (Jesus Christ) or the Intellect, Wisdom & Providence of God in whom an through whom all things are created. As the unitary cosmic principle, the Logos contains in Himself the multiple logoi (inner principles or inner essences, thoughts of God) in accordance with which all things come into existence at the times and places, and in the forms, appointed for them, each single thing thereby containing in itself the principle of its own development. It is these logoi, contained principally in the Logos and manifest in the forms of the created universe, that constitute the first or lower stage of contemplation." (Philokalia vol.2, Faber & Faber pub.). Sorry you seem upset about Bible verses presented but these are how we sometimes express our understanding according to God's revelation to us. St. Paul's definition of love is part of the common accepted definition of the word; to us it is the definition (1 Corinthians 13) . Other Bible verses that express the divine creative process include, "All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory." (1 Corinthians 15:39-42). I have provided an example in a modern physicist who is a believer and here is a sight showing the interrelation between Christianity & science http://www.christianity.co.nz./science5.htm . Lastly, I have no idea what perceived threat you see from Christianity to the world since we also live in it; it is the spirit of the world we oppose. All religions have fanatics that want to enslave mankind & these can be found in Christianity, Islam, Marxism, Fascism etc. (yep, even "secular" religions). Jesus Christ is our Saviour, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,..." (John 3:16).

 

[Lukaris]

Yeah no worries, makes sense. The problem that I see, is that if you assert God's grace as a kind of Energy, then you're not talking about the Energy concept of physics. Energy is the ability to do work. And unless you give a precise mathematical definition of what work (in the physical meaning) is done by God grace that assertion is nonsensical.[/quote]
So we cannot believe in a God who has will and unlimited capacity to utilize His uncreated energy to create & a universe & beings to deduce physical laws in and not consider this His grace?

 

[athorist]

So we cannot believe in a God who has will and unlimited capacity to utilize His uncreated energy to create & a universe & beings to deduce physical laws in and not consider this His grace?

uncreated energy!? what's that supposed to be? How can something that does not exist have grace?

 

[Lukaris]

uncreated energy!? what's that supposed to be? How can something that does not exist have grace?

"The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law." (Deuteronomy 29:29, NKJV). I am using this passage to how God (Father, Son, & Holy Spirit) is known to us but cannot also be fully known by us. There was a serious theological dispute (between the Orthodox and Roman Catholic clerics) re the understanding of the essence and energies of God in the 14th century and St. Gregory Palamas affirmed the understanding of uncreated energy and in an exchange St Gregory states, "Because those diseased in the soul with Akindynos's delusions say that the energy that is distinct from God's essence is created, they conclude that God's creative power is created. for it is impossible to act and create without an energy, just as it is impossible to exist without existence. Therefore, just as one cannot say that God's energy is created and at the same time affirm that His power to act and create is uncreated." (Philokalia, voll. IV, Topics of Natural and Theological science, answer # 139). This is a part of God's grace as are love, long suffering etc. "The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was light of men." (John 1;2-4, KJV).

 

[athorist]

Lukaris,

For the most part of your post you just quote some scripture and christian mythology. That does not even closely qualify as an argument. It is impossible to make a rational argument based on scripture or dogmatic struggles within chiristianity. That's simply not relevant.

So please then. Define that energy in a scientific way or just admit that its only myth.

 

[salida]

They may "all" claim but if you do your research and homework you will find the answers. Show me where there are prophesies of hundreds of years later like the Bible - I haven't seen it yet in other religious books. The "claim" doesn't make it true - the evidence does. God did invent science - yes, first because the Bible is true and second the evidence outside the Bible points to this. How? Again, a very complicated cell of the body didn't creat e itself - just like your car didn't create itself. Hmm, who did then? Gods footprints are his creation.

The "prophesy" things isn't new to you? All this isn't new - its a matter of looking at the evidence. How you done your research and homework? Show me your proof?

 

[athorist]

They may "all" claim but if you do your research and homework you will find the answers. Show me where there are prophesies of hundreds of years later like the Bible - I haven't seen it yet in other religious books.

I have not seen it in any religious book, and I have read the bible. (It's so full of attrocities commited by an allegedly benevolent god that I'd definitely judge it not intended for children... genocide, fratricide, mass-murder, etc. pp. )

The "claim" doesn't make it true - the evidence does.

I'm still waiting for that evidence to be shown.

God did invent science - yes, first because the Bible is true

Unfounded assertion. Utterly irrelevant therefore.

and second the evidence outside the Bible points to this.

Care to actually show that evidence instead of just claiming it to exist?

How? Again, a very complicated cell of the body didn't creat e itself - just like your car didn't create itself.

What has this got to do with prophecies? Can you actually somehow back up your assertion about the cell with some real evidence? Or are you just making stuff up as you go along? Btw, the aerodynamics of my car are created by the use of genetic algorithms. It's a standard practice to do so in the automobile industry and actually a strong proof that evolutionary principles work brilliantly.

Hmm, who did then? Gods footprints are his creation.

Unfounded assertion => irrelevant.

The "prophesy" things isn't new to you? All this isn't new - its a matter of looking at the evidence. How you done your research and homework? Show me your proof?

So shall we look into the prophecies then? In opposition to what you do (just asserting stuff without willing to show your proofs) I can back my position by evidence.

Mathiew 24:1-2

1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 "Do you see all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."

Here Jesus prophesies the total destruction of Herod's Temple. "Not one stone will be left on another", he says. Yet there is in Jerusalem today what is called the Western or Wailing Wall. This wall is part of the Temple complex built by Herod the Great in the 1st century BCE. The Wailing Wall comprises about 500 meters worth of this Temple complex. There are also smaller sections of the complex left over (cf. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Wall for details). It's obvious from the text of Matthew that Jesus' prophecy has not been fulfilled as stated, since there are plenty of stones left upon stones that were not thrown down by the Romans.

Now of course, certain apologetic rationalizers have several 'answers' for the problem: Jesus didn't really mean what he said; the Temple he referred to was just the inner core, not the entire complex; etc. But these are clearly rationalizations and special pleadings, since all Christians who read the Matthew passage without making the connection with the Wailing Wall understand Jesus to have meant exactly what is recorded in Matthew.

Isaiah's Prophecy Against Babylon

Anyone who carefully looks at Bible prophecy knows that most of these are pretty vague, and have about as much value as the prophecies of Nostradamus. Here is one such with respect to the prophet Isaiah's supposed pronouncements about the fall of Babylon in 539 BCE.

Babylon ruled as a supreme regional power in Mesopotamia from 609 to 539 BCE, according to the most reliable historians. The book of Isaiah is claimed by apologists to have been written in the 8th century BCE, some 150 years before the fall of Babylon to Cyrus the Great in 539. One of the oddities of history was that Cyrus' army took Babylon almost without a fight. There were no defenders of the city to speak of, since they were holding an all night party, and according to the Bible itself (the book of Daniel, chapter 5) perhaps only the king of the city, Belshazzar, was killed. Babylon continued to be a major city in the region until about 300 CE -- another 800+ years. But look at what the book of Isaiah prophesies about the fall and destruction of Babylon. From Isaiah chapter 13:

A Prophecy Against Babylon

1 An oracle concerning Babylon that Isaiah son of Amoz saw: 2 Raise a banner on a bare hilltop, shout to them; beckon to them to enter the gates of the nobles. 3 I have commanded my holy ones; I have summoned my warriors to carry out my wrath — those who rejoice in my triumph. 4 Listen, a noise on the mountains, like that of a great multitude! Listen, an uproar among the kingdoms, like nations massing together! The LORD Almighty is mustering an army for war. 5 They come from faraway lands, from the ends of the heavens — the LORD and the weapons of his wrath — to destroy the whole country.

6 Wail, for the day of the LORD is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty. 7 Because of this, all hands will go limp, every man's heart will melt. 8 Terror will seize them, pain and anguish will grip them; they will writhe like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at each other, their faces aflame.

9 See, the day of the LORD is coming — a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger — to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it. 10 The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light. 11 I will punish the world for its evil, the wicked for their sins. I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty and will humble the pride of the ruthless. 12 I will make man scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir. 13 Therefore I will make the heavens tremble; and the earth will shake from its place at the wrath of the LORD Almighty, in the day of his burning anger. 14 Like a hunted gazelle, like sheep without a shepherd, each will return to his own people, each will flee to his native land. 15 Whoever is captured will be thrust through; all who are caught will fall by the sword. 16 Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be looted and their wives ravished.

17 See, I will stir up against them the Medes, who do not care for silver and have no delight in gold. 18 Their bows will strike down the young men; they will have no mercy on infants nor will they look with compassion on children. 19 Babylon, the jewel of kingdoms, the glory of the Babylonians' pride, will be overthrown by God like Sodom and Gomorrah. 20 She will never be inhabited or lived in through all generations; no Arab will pitch his tent there, no shepherd will rest his flocks there. 21 But desert creatures will lie there, jackals will fill her houses; there the owls will dwell, and there the wild goats will leap about. 22 Hyenas will howl in her strongholds, jackals in her luxurious palaces. Her time is at hand, and her days will not be prolonged.

Obviously, the bolded portions above in no way correspond to the relatively peaceful overthrow of Babylon, nor do they correspond with the fact that Babylon's demise some 800 years after its fall to Cyrus the Great occurred not due to an overthrow, but to a gradual abandonment of the city for reasons lost to history. Obviously, then, no matter how one cuts it, Isaiah was wrong.

 

[athorist]

False Prophecies by Ezekiel about the Fall of Tyre[

Tyre was founded early in the 3rd millennium BCE, and apparently was an island city early on. Eventually it incorporated the city that was onshore close to it, and it became a dual city. From about 586-573 BCE, Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, beseiged the city but failed to take it (historical records are unclear about the fate of the mainland part of the city). In 332 BCE, Alexander the Great conquered the island city and killed most of its inhabitants. It has been inhabited more or less continuously ever since, and was a major supplier of purple dye in Roman times, including the 1st century CE. Today it's a city in Syria and has well over 100,000 inhabitants. See the following websites for historical details:

www[dot]biblicalstudies.org.uk/article_tyre[dot]html
en[dot]wikipedia[dot]org/wiki/Tyre%2C_Lebanon

Ezekiel prophesied the complete destruction of Tyre, followed by its everlasting desolation. Ezekiel chapters 26 through 28 contain the complete text, of which we'll look at a few passages:

Ezekiel 26:1-14, 19-21
A Prophecy Against Tyre

1 In the eleventh year, on the first day of the month, the word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, because Tyre has said of Jerusalem, 'Aha! The gate to the nations is broken, and its doors have swung open to me; now that she lies in ruins I will prosper,' 3 therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against you, O Tyre, and I will bring many nations against you, like the sea casting up its waves. 4 They will destroy the walls of Tyre and pull down her towers; I will scrape away her rubble and make her a bare rock. 5 Out in the sea she will become a place to spread fishnets, for I have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD. She will become plunder for the nations, 6 and her settlements on the mainland will be ravaged by the sword. Then they will know that I am the LORD. #

7 "For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: From the north I am going to bring against Tyre Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses and chariots, with horsemen and a great army. 8 He will ravage your settlements on the mainland with the sword; he will set up siege works against you, build a ramp up to your walls and raise his shields against you. 9 He will direct the blows of his battering rams against your walls and demolish your towers with his weapons. 10 His horses will be so many that they will cover you with dust. Your walls will tremble at the noise of the war horses, wagons and chariots when he enters your gates as men enter a city whose walls have been broken through. 11 The hoofs of his horses will trample all your streets; he will kill your people with the sword, and your strong pillars will fall to the ground. 12 They will plunder your wealth and loot your merchandise; they will break down your walls and demolish your fine houses and throw your stones, timber and rubble into the sea. 13 I will put an end to your noisy songs, and the music of your harps will be heard no more. 14 I will make you a bare rock, and you will become a place to spread fishnets. You will never be rebuilt, for I the LORD have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD.

19 "This is what the Sovereign LORD says: When I make you a desolate city, like cities no longer inhabited, and when I bring the ocean depths over you and its vast waters cover you, 20 then I will bring you down with those who go down to the pit, to the people of long ago. I will make you dwell in the earth below, as in ancient ruins, with those who go down to the pit, and you will not return or take your place in the land of the living. 21 I will bring you to a horrible end and you will be no more. You will be sought, but you will never again be found, declares the Sovereign LORD."

The first bolded passage above (vs. 2) indicates that Ezekiel wrote shortly after the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians in 587/6 BCE. Clearly, he expected that Nebuchadnezzar would visit the same fate upon the nearby Tyre. This is not exactly a difficult prediction. The second bolded passage (vs. 3) indicates Ezekiel's intent that Tyre would soon be beseiged.

The third and fourth bolded passages (vss. 5, 7) clearly state that Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, would ravage Tyre -- in particular, the island part of the city: "Out in the sea she will become a place to spread fishnets."

The third bolded passage is where the prophecy begins to break down. Indeed, shortly after Nebuchadnezzar took Jerusalem in 587/6 BCE, he beseiged Tyre, and obviously attacked both the mainland and island parts of the city, but failed to take the island city. Ezekiel actually admits later that the prophecy was wrong, in Ezekiel 29:17-18:

17 In the twenty-seventh year, in the first month on the first day, the word of the LORD came to me: 18 "Son of man, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon drove his army in a hard campaign against Tyre; every head was rubbed bare and every shoulder made raw. Yet he and his army got no reward from the campaign he led against Tyre.

Hence, we see a false prophecy from Ezekiel. It matters not that Alexander the Great took the island city some 240 years later; Ezekiel's prophecy clearly stated that Nebuchadnezzar would take the island city.

Ezekiel continues with the false prophecies in verses 14, 19, 21: "you will never be rebuilt; when I make you a desolate city, like cities no longer inhabited; you will be no more." Yet the Bible states that Jesus preached in Tyre: Matthew 11:21, 22; 15:21; Mark 7:24, 31; that Jesus' disciples preached in Tyre: Acts 21:3, 7; and that it was certainly inhabited: Mark 3:8; Luke 6:17, 10:13, 14; Acts 12:20. And of course, Tyre is a bustling city today.

False Prophecies by Isaiah about the Fall of Tyre

Isaiah also prophesied the complete destruction of Tyre, followed by its desolation for seventy years, followed by its restoration. Isaiah chapter 23 contains the complete text:

A Prophecy About Tyre

1 An oracle concerning Tyre: Wail, O ships of Tarshish! For Tyre is destroyed and left without house or harbor. From the land of Cyprus word has come to them.

2 Be silent, you people of the island and you merchants of Sidon, whom the seafarers have enriched.

3 On the great waters came the grain of the Shihor; the harvest of the Nile was the revenue of Tyre, and she became the marketplace of the nations.

4 Be ashamed, O Sidon, and you, O fortress of the sea, for the sea has spoken: "I have neither been in labor nor given birth; I have neither reared sons nor brought up daughters."

5 When word comes to Egypt, they will be in anguish at the report from Tyre.

6 Cross over to Tarshish; wail, you people of the island.

7 Is this your city of revelry, the old, old city, whose feet have taken her to settle in far-off lands?

8 Who planned this against Tyre, the bestower of crowns, whose merchants are princes, whose traders are renowned in the earth?

9 The LORD Almighty planned it, to bring low the pride of all glory and to humble all who are renowned on the earth.

10 Till your land as along the Nile, O Daughter of Tarshish, for you no longer have a harbor.

11 The LORD has stretched out his hand over the sea and made its kingdoms tremble. He has given an order concerning Phoenicia that her fortresses be destroyed.

12 He said, "No more of your reveling, O Virgin Daughter of Sidon, now crushed! "Up, cross over to Cyprus; even there you will find no rest."

13 Look at the land of the Babylonians, this people that is now of no account! The Assyrians have made it a place for desert creatures; they raised up their siege towers, they stripped its fortresses bare and turned it into a ruin.

14 Wail, you ships of Tarshish; your fortress is destroyed!

15 At that time Tyre will be forgotten for seventy years, the span of a king's life. But at the end of these seventy years, it will happen to Tyre as in the song of the prostitute:

16 "Take up a harp, walk through the city, O prostitute forgotten; play the harp well, sing many a song, so that you will be remembered."

17 At the end of seventy years, the LORD will deal with Tyre. She will return to her hire as a prostitute and will ply her trade with all the kingdoms on the face of the earth. 18 Yet her profit and her earnings will be set apart for the LORD; they will not be stored up or hoarded. Her profits will go to those who live before the LORD, for abundant food and fine clothes.

Verses 1-14 clearly indicate that Tyre would be completely destroyed; yet it existed almost continuously throughout the 6th through 1st centuries BCE, when it ought to have been gone according to Isaiah.

Verses 15-18 clearly state that at some point, Tyre would be desolate only for 70 years. Obviously this is inconsistent with Ezekiel's prophecy, which all by itself is a fatal problem for a claim of biblical inerrancy.

Another problem is where to place this desolation in time. It certainly did not happen after Nebuchadnezzar's seige in 586-573 BCE, since Ezekiel himself states that Tyre was not destroyed, and secular history agrees. It could not have happened before, or much after, the destruction of Tyre by Alexander the Great in 332 BCE, since history records no such event. So the only possible time for fulfillment is at the destruction by Alexander beginning in 332. So the end of the 70 years could only have been about 262 BCE. But the prophecy says that Tyre's "profit and her earnings will be set apart for the LORD" after the end of the 70 years; they "will go to those who live before the LORD, for abundant food and fine clothes." This obviously says that the Jews -- "those who live before the LORD" -- would get Tyre's profits from 262 BCE onward. Yet history shows that the Jews were fully subject to the Ptolemaic Kingdom at that time, and remained so until the Maccabees overthrew them in 164 BCE. So Tyre's "profits" would have gone, not to the Jews, but to the Greeks, for some 98 years -- completely eliminating an exact fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecy.

Finally, let's consider Ezekiel's prophecy that Egypt would be in a state of complete desolation for 40 years.

 

[athorist]

Ezekiel 29:1-20

A Prophecy Against Egypt

1 In the tenth year, in the tenth month on the twelfth day, the word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, set your face against Pharaoh king of Egypt and prophesy against him and against all Egypt. 3 Speak to him and say: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: " 'I am against you, Pharaoh king of Egypt, you great monster lying among your streams. You say, "The Nile is mine; I made it for myself." 4 But I will put hooks in your jaws and make the fish of your streams stick to your scales. I will pull you out from among your streams, with all the fish sticking to your scales.

5 I will leave you in the desert, you and all the fish of your streams. You will fall on the open field and not be gathered or picked up. I will give you as food to the beasts of the earth and the birds of the air.

6 Then all who live in Egypt will know that I am the LORD. " 'You have been a staff of reed for the house of Israel. 7 When they grasped you with their hands, you splintered and you tore open their shoulders; when they leaned on you, you broke and their backs were wrenched.

8 " 'Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will bring a sword against you and kill your men and their animals. 9 Egypt will become a desolate wasteland. Then they will know that I am the LORD. " 'Because you said, "The Nile is mine; I made it," 10 therefore I am against you and against your streams, and I will make the land of Egypt a ruin and a desolate waste from Migdol to Aswan, as far as the border of Cush. 11 No foot of man or animal will pass through it; no one will live there for forty years. 12 I will make the land of Egypt desolate among devastated lands, and her cities will lie desolate forty years among ruined cities. And I will disperse the Egyptians among the nations and scatter them through the countries.

13 " 'Yet this is what the Sovereign LORD says: At the end of forty years I will gather the Egyptians from the nations where they were scattered. 14 I will bring them back from captivity and return them to Upper Egypt, the land of their ancestry. There they will be a lowly kingdom. 15 It will be the lowliest of kingdoms and will never again exalt itself above the other nations. I will make it so weak that it will never again rule over the nations. 16 Egypt will no longer be a source of confidence for the people of Israel but will be a reminder of their sin in turning to her for help. Then they will know that I am the Sovereign LORD.' "

17 In the twenty-seventh year, in the first month on the first day, the word of the LORD came to me: 18 "Son of man, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon drove his army in a hard campaign against Tyre; every head was rubbed bare and every shoulder made raw. Yet he and his army got no reward from the campaign he led against Tyre. 19 Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am going to give Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, and he will carry off its wealth. He will loot and plunder the land as pay for his army. 20 I have given him Egypt as a reward for his efforts because he and his army did it for me, declares the Sovereign LORD.

While there is good historical evidence that Nebuchadnezzar did attack and plunder Egypt under its king Amasis in 567 BCE, there is also good historical evidence that Egypt remained inhabited and fully functioning for some time under Amasis (ca. 570-526 BCE), because in about 548 BCE he formed an alliance with the Babylonians, Croesus of Lydia, and Sparta against the Persians under Cyrus the Great. Thus, Egypt was never desolate and uninhabited for 40 years, and we have another failed prophecy from Ezekiel.

In general, we have the problem that a careful analysis of many supposed prophecies shows that they are really not prophecies at all, but apocalyptic descriptions of contemprary events. Most non-Fundamentalist-Bible commentators take this approach with books like Revelation.[/font]

Finally, we have many prophecies that were supposedly fulfilled many hundreds or thousands of years after the prophet wrote. Again a careful analysis of these shows that they can almost always be shown to refer to the prophet's own time period, or have nothing to do with the claimed fulfillment. A good analysis of this can be found in The Historical Approach to the Bible (Howard M. Teeple, Religion and Ethics Institute, 1982). Teeple shows, for example, how many supposed Messianic prophecies are a complete stretch when carefully examined.

PS: This pretty airtight rebuttal of biblical prophecies is written by a friend of mine and not by me. But I'll happily run with it and will happily defend it.