The Breast Example of a Double Standard

Verv · Apr 10, 2008

RealDealNeverstop said:
#13: thanks, going off the deep end usually means something positive in my experience. Your argument of 'decency' not being 'bombarded' with sexuality highlights my earlier point about the virgin/dichotomy. As stated, the primary function of breasts is food, not sex. So, why are bare breasts 'indecent' or 'dirty?' As for being bombarded with sex, have you been in a US major city lately? You can't walk 20 yards without being bombarded with ads of women in skimpy clothes posed in some submissive manner. Look at tv ads. Well over half use sex to peddle their cheap products.

(1) Regardless of what the primary purpose of a 'breast' is, it does not matter. In that regards, most people urinate more often than they have sex -- would this make it acceptable to walk around with your goods out because it's primary purpose is urination?

(2) There is a large difference between a sexually suggestive picture and an outright sexual picture.

RealDealNeverstop said:
Note: that shouldve been 'virgin/harlot dichotomy. Okay, seeing some red herrings. Nobody is talking about nude men or repression. If you want to argue men are turned on by bare breasts, so what? Are we animals incapable of controlling ourselves? There are tons of topless beaches and they don't need the Rape Police stationed every few feet. Seems like this law reflects our Western sexual objectification of women and we 'part' them out by their breasts, legs, etc. Hey, short skirts pique men's sexual interest so let's make them illegal. This is about equality and I've yet to see a sound argument that supports the double standard.

It isn't about rape. It is about the sensibilities of our culture and our people and generally not wanting to get on a bus and be confronted with a pair of breasts or a penis, and more than that, I definitely do not want to one day have kids and walk around with people exposing their genitalia to them because come on man, it's my body! I can do with it what I want.

RealDealNeverstop said:
Here are three more examples of double standards. It's illegal to smoke in Federal buildings but in DC all the legislators can smoke in their offices. Gambling is illegal, so buy a lottery ticket. At 18 you can rock the Vote + get a free M-16. You may even be ordered to kill another human being. But wait three years before you crack that beer.

I agree with you on the other three.

Kalevalatar said:
I'm afraid I have to disagree here. "Decency" is entirely a cultural concept (as opposed to a "universal" concept). Not so long ago a view of a woman's ankle--let alone calf or knee--was considered "too much" for a (Western) man's peace of mind. Elsewhere there are Pacific and African cultures where both men and women go all but naked and cultures where a woman cannot show more than her eyes if she wishes to be considerd a decent, chaste woman.

Coming from an old and strong (unisex) sauna culture, if you like, I don't feel uncomfortable at all being naked among other women or seeing naked women, especially in a sauna/spa/lockerroom environment. I mean, I (*we*) do it all the time. So my fellow ladies have breasts of every shape and size; I have a pair too. My fellow ladies also have noses of every shape & size; and so do I. Big deal. Same with the men. Saunailta/sauna evening is an important and hugely popular social male/female/family/workplace/business bonding get-together event here. I have bathed with family members and friends of the opposite sex without getting all hot & bothered. Like Kermit said, you get used to it and the "wow" factor wears off faster than you know. Of course, it helps that Finnish sauna and sex do not belong together; trying to make sexual advances in a Finnish sauna is considered a big no-no. As to the complete strangers, I have taken unisex steam baths in a quality spa and had no problems there either. It's all about the right time and place. And social norms/mores, I suppose

I suppose I could also put forward the argument that sometimes less is actually more and a body in sexy underwear/clothing can be viewed to be more desirable than a wholly unclothed body with all its flaws, if you like, fully in view.

And that is your culture.

Of course it is cultural...

So why should we change our culture? Why is it better to walk around naked all the time? Why is that desirable?

Why should we begin doing that?

Billnew · Apr 10, 2008

kermit said:
I personally think that beaches and pools in the US should allow topless. If you've ever traveled to the Caribbean or Europe you find that the topless beaches become second nature within a day or so. The first day you feel like a goofy 13 year old...."Don't look at the boobies. HAHA! Boobies". Within a day or so you find that you're no more tantalized by an attractive woman than you would be on a US beach.

It didn't take that long for me. I enjoyed them without staring, much the way I do when walking with my wife.
If she catches me, I am not as sly as I should be.

Lel said:
I think a more apropos equivalent would be to allow men to run around without pants.

Women or men without pants would be arrested. I think from the waist up the person should have the option. Of course, we all look forward to the good looking ones,
but like men, the bad ones will leave a bad image in your mind. Not talking the ones that time has ripened(raisin like), but the ones that have inflateed due to over indulgence.

RealDealNeverstop · Apr 10, 2008

Jmverville, iam not advocating exposure below the waist. Iam saying either make the law equitable or make it illegal for all. It's curious you agree with the other 3 examples but not on this. How is this not a double standard?

RealDealNeverstop · Apr 10, 2008

Kale, know what you mean. I've dated top heavy women and their biggest complaints were gravity, lower back pain, and women getting breast implants. Also, lingerie is much more appealing in some ways. It's weird how we look at breasts as something indecent. Men have them too. Anyone seen the Manzierre episode of Seinfeld?

NDNgirl4ever · Apr 10, 2008

I doubt most men would be comfortable showing up somewhere and there is a nude man, and I doubt most women would feel comfortable going somewhere where there was a topless woman

If that were true, there would be no locker rooms or saunas.

Nudity is only a big deal because society makes it that way. Part of the turn on is because it's viewed as "forbidden". If nudity were a common, everyday thing, you would take that factor away and it would be just another part of normal life. Ask anyone who's in medicine. We see people naked all the time, and there is nothing sexual about it. We view it as just another part of the job. As my mom(who is also a nurse) says "you've seen one naked person, you've seen them all".

So in short, I agree that women should be free to go topless in public if they want to.

People do not want to walk around and be bombarded with sexuality and they also do not want to look at other people's organs...

Obviously some people don't mind being bombarded. Look at TV, the internet and radio. Sexual references are all around. Like it or not, it's true that sex sells.

I suppose you could say that their sex drive is more piqued by a shirtless woman than a woman is by a shirtless man

That's not true in all cases. There are women who get VERY turned on by visuals. We just don't show it quite as much.

Conspiracy Theory · Apr 10, 2008

That's not true in all cases. There are women who get VERY turned on by visuals. We just don't show it quite as much.

And most men aren't ripped like the Governator used to be.

RealDealNeverstop · Apr 10, 2008

Oh yeah? I can show a six pack anytime I take my shirt off! (Well, as long as iam hold 6 Sam Adam's SummerAle's or if I prepped by pasting the blown up pic of some volleyball player on my tummy)

Conspiracy Theory · Apr 10, 2008

this thread makes me want to do crunches.

RealDealNeverstop · Apr 10, 2008

Speaking of crunches, I got a box of Cap'n Crunch the first time in a long time and was peeved! They totally changed the texture and flavor! So, I stepped on the box a few times and mixed it in with the cat litter.

Verv · Apr 11, 2008

RealDealNeverstop said:
Jmverville, iam not advocating exposure below the waist. Iam saying either make the law equitable or make it illegal for all. It's curious you agree with the other 3 examples but not on this. How is this not a double standard?

Breasts are very sexual for men. The chest can be sexy for a woman, I guess, but breasts are a class unto their own...

That is just how I feel, man.

NDNgirl4ever said:
If that were true, there would be no locker rooms or saunas.

Nudity is only a big deal because society makes it that way. Part of the turn on is because it's viewed as "forbidden". If nudity were a common, everyday thing, you would take that factor away and it would be just another part of normal life. Ask anyone who's in medicine. We see people naked all the time, and there is nothing sexual about it. We view it as just another part of the job. As my mom(who is also a nurse) says "you've seen one naked person, you've seen them all".

So in short, I agree that women should be free to go topless in public if they want to.

Obviously some people don't mind being bombarded. Look at TV, the internet and radio. Sexual references are all around. Like it or not, it's true that sex sells.

That's not true in all cases. There are women who get VERY turned on by visuals. We just don't show it quite as much.

First, I will tell you I do go to Korean saunas/bath houses where you are nude in front of everyone... I've also been in the Army showering nude with 50 of your closest buddies.

But there is something OK about it as no one looks at each others junk lest they be verbally chastised or ostracized. Once I glanced down at my friend in a bath house and he smacked me on the shoulder and chastised me. Culturally, you are not allowed to look at each other.

But whatever... To cut to the chase:

When there is no outright nudity it often takes on the context of a sort of comedy and less sexuality. I do disagree with a lot of it, though, and woul dbe more comfortable without it.

RealDealNeverstop · Apr 11, 2008

Nice and honest response so thanks! The question I have is on your view of breasts as being primarily sexual. Is it an original or derivative emotion? Is it possible we are trained to view breasts in that manner, thus making them 'dirty' and justifying the legal double standard? Women are trained to put themselves through a lifetime metaphysical make-over on everything from being hairless (putting them in a pre-pubescent state and thus subjugated) to painting their faces and breast implants. Some extremes are women getting their make-up literally tattooed on their faces and some even have perfectly healthy bones in their feet broken so they can be re-set in a shape that will allow them to wear certain kinds of high heels.

Kalevalatar · Apr 11, 2008

jmverville said:
And that is your culture.

Of course it is cultural...

So why should we change our culture? Why is it better to walk around naked all the time? Why is that desirable?

Why should we begin doing that?

Sorry , I wasn't clear. I'm with you. I don't see how walking around naked in public any time, any place would "set us free" (hah! I made a pun, I think...). In a way, clothes are our biggest equalizer. Clothes are certainly more merciful. I merely objected the idea that feeling uncomfortable when confronted with nakedness = a universal sign of decency. As in: I have no problem with my naked body, I have no problem with other people's naked bodies, and I'm still a perfectly decent lady, thank you very much.

NDNgirl4ever said:
If that were true, there would be no locker rooms or saunas.

Nudity is only a big deal because society makes it that way. Part of the turn on is because it's viewed as "forbidden". If nudity were a common, everyday thing, you would take that factor away and it would be just another part of normal life. Ask anyone who's in medicine. We see people naked all the time, and there is nothing sexual about it. We view it as just another part of the job. As my mom(who is also a nurse) says "you've seen one naked person, you've seen them all".

So in short, I agree that women should be free to go topless in public if they want to.

Obviously some people don't mind being bombarded. Look at TV, the internet and radio. Sexual references are all around. Like it or not, it's true that sex sells.

That's not true in all cases. There are women who get VERY turned on by visuals. We just don't show it quite as much.

Nice to see a fellow lady who no less than agrees with me.

RealDealNeverstop said:
Kale, know what you mean. I've dated top heavy women and their biggest complaints were gravity, lower back pain, and women getting breast implants. Also, lingerie is much more appealing in some ways. It's weird how we look at breasts as something indecent. Men have them too. Anyone seen the Manzierre episode of Seinfeld?

Seen it. And it's not fair that men can't wear bras for added comfort without being ridiculed and stigmatized.

RealDealNeverstop said:
Nice and honest response so thanks! The question I have is on your view of breasts as being primarily sexual. Is it an original or derivative emotion? Is it possible we are trained to view breasts in that manner, thus making them 'dirty' and justifying the legal double standard? Women are trained to put themselves through a lifetime metaphysical make-over on everything from being hairless (putting them in a pre-pubescent state and thus subjugated) to painting their faces and breast implants. Some extremes are women getting their make-up literally tattooed on their faces and some even have perfectly healthy bones in their feet broken so they can be re-set in a shape that will allow them to wear certain kinds of high heels.

I think you answer to your own wonderings/ponderings/questions when you stop to think why have women through centuries been subjected to all this stuff. Up until our times, a woman's body has always belonged to her family and then to her husband('s family) for the reason that only women can produce heirs (with the little--ha! another pun, unintended, naturally--help of men, of course ) I find it a bit ironic that you, a man, are demanding that women be allowed to go topless in public. I mean, shouldn't it be up to us women to make that call--if that's what we want, that is. See what I mean?

Rather fascinating discussion, I must say.

Kalevalatar · Apr 11, 2008

RealDealNeverstop said:
Oh yeah? I can show a six pack anytime I take my shirt off! (Well, as long as iam hold 6 Sam Adam's SummerAle's or if I prepped by pasting the blown up pic of some volleyball player on my tummy)

Conspiracy Theory said:
this thread makes me want to do crunches.

Oh, pliis, forget the crunches! Too much work. Don't you guys know that it's all about the play of shadow and light. Do as the professional models do and use body paint, and voilá, you have yourself a nice 12-pack...

RealDealNeverstop · Apr 11, 2008

Well Kale, in pondering the gay marriage issue I got to thinking of other double standards in our laws so I was wondering how peeps would react to this double standard. For some reason, sex is such a pivotal thing for us as it can cause a Prez to get impeached and force a Governor to resign but killing thousands of humans without cause doesn't mean squat. Also, prostitution is another quandry. Peeps trade their bodies for money millions of times everyday and that is even encouraged but if a woman or man trade their bodies for money in a sexual arena it suddenly becomes the government's and other busybodies' business to tell them 'No no no!' What's even more strange is you can do it legally on camera then sell it like soda. Another aspect is that keeping prostitution illegal causes many harms/tragedies to women that could easily be avoided with legalization so I see it as a form of controlling women and those who don't conform get punished with rape, physical and other abuses. Our culture is still very patriarchal and it's not an accident 'history' is spelled as HIS-story.

Arkanin · Apr 11, 2008

I'd like to think the underlying value which our law exists to uphold is personal freedom, that is to say that ultimately, the law protects your personal rights. In legal philosophy, for every right of this kind, there's a corollary duty; e.g., you have a right not to be punched, and I have a duty not to punch you.

One of our rights is to not have to see people flap their genitals around in public if you don't want to, hence, corollary duty. Those rights and duties are ultimately determined by our cultural norms and our biological drives. Our cultural norms happen to sexualize female breasts way more than male ones, so that's just how it works out. The double standard is intrinsically cultural and much of our legal protection is based on cultural norms (drinking age, drugs, age of consent et. al.). I know that you want one, but there isn't some deeper or more profound explanation for this part of the law much less any law.

Interesting fact: a very reasonable amount of research suggests that male attraction to female breasts is far more a result of our culture than our biology.

Also: I'm troubled by some of the sexism in this thread.

RealDealNeverstop · Apr 11, 2008

Oh, well now that I've been told there is nothing deeper for the reason of the double standard I can stop exploring reasons. Since I've simply been told there aren't any deeper reasons that must be true. It's not like we live in culture where nearly every aspect of adult roles carries a double standard based solely on gender.

The Breast Example of a Double Standard

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