The Book of The Dead

Perhaps if you had the faith of mustard, 'the smallest of all seeds' you would be less troubled by narrative error and artistic licence.

The notion that something can be "artistic enough" to be exalted that highly in spite of its narrative (not copyist) error is very strange to me.

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The notion of fiction being an error is very strange to me. It's a bit like saying that Dickens is in error because Oliver Twist didn't exist. There are no narrative errors in the creation stories; it's just that they happen to be fictional, rather than historical.

busterdog said:

No, its like Dickens being in error if England didn't exist.

No, its more like Encyclopedia Britanica writing about leprechauns.

No, its more like Darwin writing about evolution.

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CSLewis really blew it then.

busterdog said:

Do I sound troubled?

Maybe you shouldn't be troubled that the earth is much younger than it seems.

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And maybe mustard seeds are much smaller than they look too?

1Ch 13:9¶And when they came unto the threshingfloor of Chidon, Uzza put forth his hand to hold the ark; for the oxen stumbled.

1Ch 13:10
And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzza, and he smote him, because he put his hand to the ark: and there he died before God.

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Note to self: Do not use oxen for ark transportation.

Thanks Buster, a timely reminder.

No, its like Dickens being in error if England didn't exist.

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What? You mean writers aren't allowed to invent imaginary places anymore? I don't understand this comment. Is Tolkein in error because Middle Earth didn't exist, or C S Lewis if Narnia didn't exist? Is the Star Trek franchise in error because there's no such place as Vulcan?

That the story of creation was set in an imaginary place and is fictional doesn't make it any less true, does it?

busterdog said:

Why is it that none of this made it into the Old Testament? Are the myths of the Bible of common origin? :o

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These are the nephillim.

Genesis chapter 6,

pyramid mystery solved. they even left us their photo's on some walls and such.

Do you realise what you just said?

Sure are alot of words here to just say you don't believe what's written in the bible.

busterdog said:

Apparently I love a tall tale as much as you, and the Nephilim are fun, fun, fun.

http://www.stevequayle.com/Giants/index2.html

But, the Bible has some, but pretty much of a passing interest in the subject. Overcoming giants is far more interesting than who they were and where they came from. A lot of the mythology and legend that wen along with them is omitted from the Bible. This has saved our TE friends a lot of trouble, since they needn't work so hard to disprove another fantastic tale. But it is another example of the fact that the BIble is not a gloss on local legend, its content was carefully selected to be the message itself. Its selection of content is original, not a variation on a theme by the neighboring baby-roasters.

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1 And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto 2 them beautiful and comely daughters. And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men 3 and beget us children.' And Semjaza, who was their leader, said unto them: 'I fear ye will not 4 indeed agree to do this deed, and I alone shall have to pay the penalty of a great sin.' And they all answered him and said: 'Let us all swear an oath, and all bind ourselves by mutual imprecations 5 not to abandon this plan but to do this thing.' Then sware they all together and bound themselves 6 by mutual imprecations upon it. And they were in all two hundred; who descended in the days of Jared on the summit of Mount Hermon, and they called it Mount Hermon, because they had sworn 7 and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it. And these are the names of their leaders: Samlazaz, their leader, Araklba, Rameel, Kokablel, Tamlel, Ramlel, Danel, Ezeqeel, Baraqijal, 8 Asael, Armaros, Batarel, Ananel, Zaq1el, Samsapeel, Satarel, Turel, Jomjael, Sariel. These are their chiefs of tens.
[Chapter 7]
1 And all the others together with them took unto themselves wives, and each chose for himself one, and they began to go in unto them and to defile themselves with them, and they taught them charms 2 and enchantments, and the cutting of roots, and made them acquainted with plants. And they 3 became pregnant, and they bare great giants, whose height was three thousand ells: Who consumed 4 all the acquisitions of men. And when men could no longer sustain them, the giants turned against 5 them and devoured mankind. And they began to sin against birds, and beasts, and reptiles, and 6 fish, and to devour one another's flesh, and drink the blood. Then the earth laid accusation against the lawless ones.
[Chapter 8]
1 And Azazel taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals of the earth and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all 2 colouring tinctures. And there arose much godlessness, and they committed fornication, and they 3 were led astray, and became corrupt in all their ways. Semjaza taught enchantments, and root-cuttings, 'Armaros the resolving of enchantments, Baraqijal (taught) astrology, Kokabel the constellations, Ezeqeel the knowledge of the clouds, Araqiel the signs of the earth, Shamsiel the signs of the sun, and Sariel the course of the moon. And as men perished, they cried, and their cry went up to heaven . . .
[Chapter 9] 1 And then Michael, Uriel, Raphael, and Gabriel looked down from heaven and saw much blood being 2 shed upon the earth, and all lawlessness being wrought upon the earth. And they said one to another: 'The earth made without inhabitant cries the voice of their cryingst up to the gates of heaven. 3 And now to you, the holy ones of heaven, the souls of men make their suit, saying, "Bring our cause 4 before the Most High."' And they said to the Lord of the ages: 'Lord of lords, God of gods, King of kings, and God of the ages, the throne of Thy glory (standeth) unto all the generations of the 5 ages, and Thy name holy and glorious and blessed unto all the ages! Thou hast made all things, and power over all things hast Thou: and all things are naked and open in Thy sight, and Thou seest all 6 things, and nothing can hide itself from Thee. Thou seest what Azazel hath done, who hath taught all unrighteousness on earth and revealed the eternal secrets which were (preserved) in heaven, which 7 men were striving to learn: And Semjaza, to whom Thou hast given authority to bear rule over his associates. And they have gone to the daughters of men upon the earth, and have slept with the 9 women, and have defiled themselves, and revealed to them all kinds of sins. And the women have 10 borne giants, and the whole earth has thereby been filled with blood and unrighteousness. And now, behold, the souls of those who have died are crying and making their suit to the gates of heaven, and their lamentations have ascended: and cannot cease because of the lawless deeds which are 11 wrought on the earth. And Thou knowest all things before they come to pass, and Thou seest these things and Thou dost suffer them, and Thou dost not say to us what we are to do to them in regard to these.'

Assyrian said:

Do you realise what you just said?

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busterdog said:

But of course.

I am not interested in tip toeing around ideas, so I don't really care if what I say is misused. It is only in the TE world and other fundamentalist groups that would use Gen. 6 to abuse Gen. 1.

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You start off trying to argue against the notion that there was a common mythic basis from which Genesis originated. But in the end you say the stories in Genesis are drawn from local myth, but that the difference comes in the way the myth was selected and edited to give a completely new message.

busterdog said:

Apparently I love a tall tale as much as you, and the Nephilim are fun, fun, fun.

http://www.stevequayle.com/Giants/index2.html

But, the Bible has some, but pretty much of a passing interest in the subject. Overcoming giants is far more interesting than who they were and where they came from. A lot of the mythology and legend that wen along with them is omitted from the Bible. This has saved our TE friends a lot of trouble, since they needn't work so hard to disprove another fantastic tale. But it is another example of the fact that the BIble is not a gloss on local legend, its content was carefully selected to be the message itself. Its selection of content is original, not a variation on a theme by the neighboring baby-roasters.

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This is exactly what people like shernren and crawfish have been telling you.

shernren said:

One of my favorite words to describe this is that God subverted the literary stories of the Israelites' contemporaries to impart His truth. (And C.S. Lewis has called God subversive before I was even born; I am simply standing on the shoulders of giants.) Did He copy them wholesale? Certainly not; and yet by incorporating familiar elements from familiar stories He got them to think sharply and critically about how God had theologically set them apart from other cultures.

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crawfish said:

You're either misunderstanding or misrepresenting the common origin view held by many TE's (including myself). What I believe, and what I think the evidence supports, is that the ancient Israelites were very aware of the myths of other cultures - Babylonian, Egyptian, Canaanite, Persian - and much of their understanding of the nature of the universe came from those myths. When they wrote the books of the Bible, they wrote them from the viewpoint of that understanding...their purpose was to remove the supernatural elements attributed to other gods and to show how God was behind it all.

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Just pointing out what you realised and admitted yourself.