The Bonobo and the Atheist

[Barry Desborough]

I have several books by Frans de Waal, one of 2007 Time magazine's selection of the world's most influential people.

In this one, he discusses the origins of morality. He does not lambast religion, but considers that it is the result, not the cause of our evolved moral instincts. He even considers that perhaps religion is still needed as a bulwark against moral anarchy, but has a "let's see" attitude to the natural experiment that is ongoing, whereby prosperous Western nations, particularly in North-Western Europe, are discarding religious explanations. Certainly, said nations lead the world in their paucity of crime and social dysfunction.

More details and reviews to be found on Amazon, @ The Bonobo and the Atheist: In Search of Humanism Among the Primates: Frans de Waal: 9780393347791: Amazon.com: Books

 

[Silmarien]

There's a book I was looking at recently, Spiritual Evolution by George E. Vaillant, that also dealt with the evolution of spirituality and morality, though from the perspective of neuroscience. Really interesting stuff. (https://www.amazon.com/Spiritual-Evolution-Wired-Faith-Hope/dp/0767926587)

I do think that it's pretty likely that the seeds of what would eventually become human morality are found in other mammals as well. What I'd be really interested in seeing is to what degree the same instincts are found in bird species as well, since they're far enough away from us in the animal family tree that if there's a similar tendency there towards a moral norm, then you suddenly have a claim that it's not just a matter of mammalian evolution.

 

[Chesterton]

First, reading the "minds" of animals is even harder than reading the minds of humans. If you see an animal perform an action it's complete speculation as to what's going on. If I see a man leave a generous tip for a waitperson, I have no idea what his motivation is. Is he being thoughtful and kind, or is he trying to look like a bigshot, or trying to avoid looking like a jerk? Sometimes I have trouble sussing out my own motivations for things.

Second, morality in the modern sense is a cheap business transaction - you be good to me and I'll be good to you in return, and hopefully then we can get along without killing each other off. Ancient people, atheist, pagan and Christian alike, talked about "virtue", something admirable. So what difference does it make if this modern scientific idea of morality evolved? It would be as informative as discovering that Capitalism evolved.

 

[Barry Desborough]

First, reading the "minds" of animals is even harder than reading the minds of humans. If you see an animal perform an action it's complete speculation as to what's going on. If I see a man leave a generous tip for a waitperson, I have no idea what his motivation is. Is he being thoughtful and kind, or is he trying to look like a bigshot, or trying to avoid looking like a jerk? Sometimes I have trouble sussing out my own motivations for things.

Second, morality in the modern sense is a cheap business transaction - you be good to me and I'll be good to you in return, and hopefully then we can get along without killing each other off. Ancient people, atheist, pagan and Christian alike, talked about "virtue", something admirable. So what difference does it make if this modern scientific idea of morality evolved? It would be as informative as discovering that Capitalism evolved.

De Waal has spent a lifetime observing primates and conducting experiments. It's not a long book, and, IMO, quite profound. Give it a go.