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The Blessed Hope

May 6, 2013
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'For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And, the dead in Christ will rise first. Then, we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And, thus we shall always be with the Lord'
-1 Thessalonians 4: 16 & 17 (NKJV)

The Rapture. Just the mention of it fills my heart with excitement, expectation, and joy. However, there are many of those out there, even inside of the Church, who do not understand or believe that there will even be such an event. Let us dive into this subject, which is one of the most controversial topics in Christianity today.

For those of you out there who believes the Rapture will never happen, it comes down to the validity of the Bible. As we have already proven beyond a shadow of a doubt the validity of Scripture in the previous issue, I will skip that one. Next, the Rapture is referred to many times throughout the Bible. For examples refer to the verse above, Corinthians, and the Olivet Discourse in Matthew.

Some say since the word Rapture is not in the Bible, then it is a false doctrine. However, we must look at the word "Rapture" itself to fully understand where it comes from. In Greek, the original language that most of the New Testament was written in, the word 'harpazio' is used in the above verse. Harpazio means "snatch or seize". When Saint Jerome translated the original text into Latin in the 4th century, it became "rapturo", which means "to snatch away, to seize, or to tear away". The Rapture is a "snatching up" of Jesus' followers before the trials that are to be poured out upon the undecided and the wicked.

For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works. - Titus 2: 11-14

In this verse, the Rapture is called the Blessed Hope. The Blessed Hope refers to the glorious expectation of our Lord Jesus' return. It will be a joyful event, that many opponents of the Rapture refer to as the "secret rapture". However, it is clear that it will be widespread, obvious, and world-changing. The Bible says the Rapture will be preceded by Jesus' shout, a voice of an archangel, and a trumpet. Sounds the opposite of "secret".
But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
-Matthew 20: 36-44
The order of the Rapture is also explained. The dead in Christ, believers throughout the ages, will rise first. Imagine if you will, every grave or coffin that contains a believer is suddenly empty. Morgues emptied of bodies. A wake loses its' star attraction. Immediately after this happens, every believer alive will be "caught up" to the clouds to meet Jesus and the dead in Christ. Now absorb what we are saying. Factory workers, airline pilots, train conductors, teachers, doctors disappear in the "twinkling of an eye". Mayhem, chaos, and anarchy ensue as driverless cars, planes, trains, and trucks careen out of control. A husband wakes up early to go to work, rolls over to kiss his wife "good morning", and encounters only a night gown and wedding ring. With all of the Christians taken away, the lawless and evil masses will begin rioting, looting, and marshal law will be instituted. A scary but inevitable scene. This is the world the unbelievers will be left to live in.

For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.
-1 Thessalonians 1: 9-10
There are two main reasons, other than Scripture of course, that should cause us to take the Rapture seriously. First, history, especially, Biblical history, shows God's unwillingness for His people to go through the trials awaiting the wicked. The trials in this case being the tribulation, which we will discuss in later issues. Noah escaped the flood. Lot escaped Sodom. Israel escaped Egypt.

But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.
-1 Thessalonians 5: 1-3

The second, Jesus tells us that His return for believers will be imminent and unpredictable. He tells us that He will return "like a thief in the night." This is why we are called to live lives pleasing to God, in order not to be caught unawares like the parable of the ten virgins told by Jesus Himself. (Matthew 25: 1-13)

In conclusion, if you are saved, begin reading and researching the Rapture for yourself. It will be the most important event in your life. In Part 2, I will explain the main differing opinions about the timing of the Rapture. Will it be Pre or before the tribulation? Midtribulation? Posttribulation or at the end of the tribulation?
 
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May 6, 2013
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I understand that the new teachings are against the Rapture, particularly the Pre-tribulational Rapture. However, that is the truth that the Bible contains. People can argue till they are blue in the face, but the result will be the same. Desire to sin is a great motivator to not believe that Jesus will remove His elect from danger before the wrath that is coming to punish the wicked. And thank you for the kind welcome. I am sure it'll be close to the last nice thing anyone says to me before I am done.
 
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The nT is not 'rapture-centric' at all. The blessed hope is not the rapture per se. Something like it may happen, but it is way overestimated right now. The term means to give a warm, familiar greeting; ie, it has much more emotional content than mechanical. Notice even in older English that 'rapture' for centuries meant an emotional effusion, not an actual event.
 
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Choose Wisely

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Thanks for your post iamtheLordsforever. I believe in the rapture......or should I say raptures. Some things for you to consider..........


In this verse, the Rapture is called the Blessed Hope. The Blessed Hope refers to the glorious expectation of our Lord Jesus' return. It will be a joyful event, that many opponents of the Rapture refer to as the "secret rapture". However, it is clear that it will be widespread, obvious, and world-changing. The Bible says the Rapture will be preceded by Jesus' shout, a voice of an archangel, and a trumpet. Sounds the opposite of "secret".

Does the word say that it is Jesus shout or is it the voice of the arch angel? Also the trump of God is the voice of God. See Exodus 19, Rev 1, Rev 4.
If Rev 4 is the picture of the rapture, note that John says that the trump of God or voice of God is talking to him, meaning it is not for others to hear.
The pre trib rapture will be secret, the shout by the arch angel is heard in heaven and the voice of God is only for those who are called.

There are two main reasons, other than Scripture of course, that should cause us to take the Rapture seriously. First, history, especially, Biblical history, shows God's unwillingness for His people to go through the trials awaiting the wicked. The trials in this case being the tribulation, which we will discuss in later issues. Noah escaped the flood. Lot escaped Sodom. Israel escaped Egypt.

Notice that Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood. Notice that the very day Lot leaves Sodom, destruction comes.


But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

If there was only to be one rapture why did Paul not say "But concerning the TIME AND SEASON, brothern." Why did he say TIMES AND SEASONS.



The second, Jesus tells us that His return for believers will be imminent and unpredictable. He tells us that He will return "like a thief in the night." This is why we are called to live lives pleasing to God, in order not to be caught unawares like the parable of the ten virgins told by Jesus Himself. (Matthew 25: 1-13)

In conclusion, if you are saved, begin reading and researching the Rapture for yourself. It will be the most important event in your life. In Part 2, I will explain the main differing opinions about the timing of the Rapture. Will it be Pre or before the tribulation? Midtribulation? Posttribulation or at the end of the tribulation?

I look forward to hearing your comments, but on this forum, get ready to duck.
 
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iamthelordsforever said in post 1:

The Blessed Hope

The blessed hope (Titus 2:13) is the hope of eternal life: "In hope of eternal life" (Titus 1:2), "that blessed hope" (Titus 2:13), "the hope of eternal life" (Titus 3:7), by which is meant the hope of obtaining an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus' second coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will not occur until immediately after the future tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). Also, Jesus himself is our hope (1 Timothy 1:1b), for he himself is eternal life (John 14:6), and only by believing in him can we have eternal life (John 3:36).

iamthelordsforever said in post 1:

Matthew 20: 36-44

(What you quoted in your post wasn't Matthew 20:36-44, but Matthew 24:36-44). Matthew 24:36,42,44 refers to Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:37,42,44), which Jesus had just finished saying will not happen until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). So in Matthew 24:42,44, Jesus could mean that only if believers do not watch (stay awake, spiritually) during the tribulation, the second coming will happen at an hour they don't know/think not (compare the if principle of Revelation 3:3b). In the context of Matthew 24:36,42,44, Jesus suggests that it is possible for believers to know when the second coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a; 1 Thessalonians 5:4). Also, Jesus says "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36), he does not say "of that day and hour no man will know". So it is possible that at some point in the future, some believers will come to know the date (as in the year, month, and day) of the second coming before it happens. Also, if we mistakenly think that Jesus can come today or tomorrow (as is sometimes claimed by the pre-tribulation and symbolicist views), then how can we also claim that he will come when nobody thinks he will (Matthew 24:44)?

Also, compare the following: "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36), "the things of God knoweth no man" (1 Corinthians 2:11). If we claim that the first verse means that no man will ever know the date of the second coming until it happens, then to be consistent we would have to also claim that the second verse means that no man, not even believers, can know the things of God until the second coming. But who would say that? For the Holy Spirit can currently reveal to believers the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:12-13). He can currently guide them into all truth and show them what will happen in the future (John 16:13), including the date of the second coming. For, again, Jesus suggests that it is possible for believers to know when the second coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a; 1 Thessalonians 5:4). Also, what Amos 3:7 says would include the second coming: Surely God the Father will not send Jesus back without having first revealed to some believers the secret of the date of the second coming.

Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in a third Jewish temple (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15).

iamthelordsforever said in post 1:

1 Thessalonians 1: 9-10

Regarding "the wrath to come" (1 Thessalonians 1:10), that refers to the same wrath as 1 Thessalonians 5:9, which refers to only that wrath which is opposed to salvation, which is God's wrath (Jn. 3:36). Saved people can suffer the wrath of Satan, which does not affect their salvation (Rev. 12:17, Rev. 2:10). For even if they are killed by Satan, this is no loss for them, but gain (Philip. 1:21,23; 2 Cor. 5:8). Also, 1 Thes. 5:9a applies to anyone who obtains salvation (1 Thes. 5:9b).

Nothing requires that the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be God's wrath, or that any part of the tribulation that will be his wrath will be directed against any of the saved people (1 Thes. 5:9) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Mt. 24:9-13, Rev. 13:7-10, Rev. 14:12-13, Rev. 20:4-6). Most of the tribulation could be Satan's wrath working through evil men and natural forces to bring disaster on the earth, like when Satan was allowed to work through evil men and natural forces to bring disaster on righteous Job (Job 1:12-20), against whom God had no wrath.

The tribulation's first five seals (Rev. 6:1-11) won't be God's wrath or judgment, for after the first four seals, the martyrs of the fifth seal ask God when he is going to bring his judgment against the world (Rev. 6:10). And the killing of even more martyrs, which the fifth seal foretells will happen sometime after the fifth seal (Rev. 6:11), won't be God's wrath against those martyrs. So Jesus unsealing the tribulation's seals (Rev. 6), the tribulation's first stage, doesn't mean that the events unsealed will be God's wrath, but that they will be permitted by God to happen at that time.

The tribulation's sixth seal (Rev. 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Rev. 6:12), whereas the day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thes. 2:2) will begin at his second coming (1 Cor. 1:7-8; 2 Thes. 2:1-8; 2 Thes. 1:7-10), which won't happen until Rev. 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18/Matthew 24 (Mt. 24:29-31; 2 Thes. 2:1-8). The people quoted at the 6th seal (Rev. 6:17), during only the first stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the sixth seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their ways to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in Jn. 7:12b and Mt. 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Rev. 6:17.

After the tribulation's sixth seal will occur its seventh seal (Rev. 8:1), out of which will come its seven trumpets (Rev. 8:1-2). Nothing requires that any of the first six trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The fifth trumpet's events will be the work of weird locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Rev. 9:2-10) led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Rev. 9:11). And the sixth trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by four fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Rev. 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the six trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy a third of different things (Rev. 8:7-12, Rev. 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause a third of the angels to be cast down to the earth for good (Rev. 12:4,9).

Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of the beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Rev. 13:4-18, Rev. 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what he could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction is not from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") wants only the best for mankind. In this way, he could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Rev. 13:4-18, Rev. 12:9). The Antichrist will revile YHWH (Rev. 13:6, Dan. 11:36).

After the Antichrist's 3.5-year reign (Rev. 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the tribulation's seventh trumpet (Rev. 11:15), the seven plagues of the seven vials (or bowls) of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly temple opening of the seventh trumpet (Rev. 11:19, Rev. 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Rev. 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Rev. 16:6-7, Rev. 13:7-10, Rev. 14:12-13, Rev. 20:4-6, Mt. 24:9-13).

During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Mt. 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Rev. 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself is not the Christ (1 Jn. 2:22) and that Christ himself is not in the flesh (2 Jn. 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Rev. 20:4; 2 Tim. 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Tim. 4:1-2), for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Rev. 20:4, Rev. 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against the church (Rev. 12:17), not God's wrath, for the church is not appointed to God's wrath (1 Thes. 5:9).

Even when God's wrath comes in the seven vials (Rev. 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thes. 5:9), none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Rev. 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isa. 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Gen. 7:7). After the seventh vial is completed (Rev. 16:17,19, Rev. 19:2), Jesus will return (Mt. 24:29-30) and bring the second-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Rev. 19:15-21). But before that second-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thes. 4:17; 2 Thes. 2:1, Mt. 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thes. 4:17).
 
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iamthelordsforever said in post 1:

Noah escaped the flood. Lot escaped Sodom.

Luke 17:26-37 and Matthew 24:37-41 refer to what will happen at Jesus' second coming, "when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying will not happen until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Those "taken" at the second coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will be unsaved people who will be taken to where they will be killed and birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28, compare Job 39:30b; Revelation 19:21). The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (John 19:16-18).

Those "left" where they are at the second coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the bodily resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium is over into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Before the millennium, at Jesus' second coming, those in the church will neither be "taken" and killed, nor "left" where they are, but will be "gathered together" (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The purpose of this rapture meeting will be so that those in the church can be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, compare Mark 13:27) and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7) in the sky, before Jesus descends from the sky (the first heaven) with the obedient part of church to bring his second-coming wrath on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:14 to 20:3).

So the second coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the Flood, and Lot went out from Sodom before it was destroyed, so the church will be raptured into the sky at the second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7) before Jesus begins the second-coming wrath (Revelation 19:15 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).

iamthelordsforever said in post 1:

1 Thessalonians 5: 1-3

1 Thes. 5:3 could include reference to when, near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, at the two witnesses' death at the legal end of the Antichrist's 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 11:8,15, Rev. 13:5-18), the unsaved world will rejoice and make merry, because it will then be free from the tormenting plagues from the two witnesses (Rev. 11:10,6). But little will the unsaved world realize that the plagues of the seven vials of God's (temporal) judgment and wrath will then be poured out upon it (Rev. 16), and then Jesus will return and bring the second-coming (yet still temporal) judgment and wrath of God (Rev. 19:11 to 20:3). Between the temporal judgment and wrath of Rev. 19:11 to 20:3 and the eternal judgment and wrath of Rev. 20:11-15 will occur the millennium and subsequent Gog/Magog rebellion (Rev. 20:4-10, Ezek. chapters 38-39).

The unsaved people of the world will have no idea most of them are going to be killed at Jesus' second coming until it happens (Matthew 24:37-39). For they could think that the second coming had already occurred with the coming into power of the Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet (Revelation 13:13-14, Revelation 19:20), who could claim to be Jesus returned. And just as the people of the world shortly before Noah's flood, even though they could see or hear about Noah building his huge ark, no doubt rejected the idea that YHWH had the power to actually cause a global flood which would kill them, so the people of the world at the end of the future tribulation could reject the idea that YHWH has the power to actually defeat them.

For during the tribulation's latter half, the world will see the power of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and his fallen angels (Revelation 12:9), and the power Lucifer will give to the Antichrist to take over the entire earth (Revelation 13:4-8), and to utterly revile YHWH year after year without being destroyed (Revelation 13:5-6, Daniel 11:36), and to physically overcome and kill people in the church in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). And the world will see the amazing miraculous powers that Lucifer will give to the Antichrist's False Prophet, by which he will be able to even call fire down from heaven in the sight of everyone (Revelation 13:13, compare 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

And near the end of the future tribulation, the world will see the Antichrist's defeat of YHWH's amazingly-powerful two witnesses (Revelation 11:3-9), after which defeat the world will rejoice and make merry and send gifts to each other because the two witnesses had been sending plagues on the world (Revelation 11:10,6). And even though those plagues will be shortly followed by even more plagues from YHWH, poured out directly from heaven (Revelation 16, the tribulation's final stage), the people of the world will not lose their confidence that YHWH can still be defeated. For after almost all of the plagues from heaven are over, the world will see the amazing miraculous powers of some unclean spirits, convincing the world's armies to gather together for a battle against YHWH (Revelation 16:13-14, Revelation 19:19). And so the world could come to that battle at the very end of the tribulation with the same careless attitude as some people at the start of the American Civil War, who held picnics at the expected first battleground of Bull Run/Manassas to watch the battle and what they expected to be a quick and easy victory.

iamthelordsforever said in post 1:

Jesus tells us that His return for believers will be imminent and unpredictable.

Jesus nowhere tells us that his return will be imminent or unpredictable. Instead, he tells us that he will not come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' second coming and the bodily resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same second coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same second coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the third Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, compare Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" (Revelation 3:5). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and all the unsaved armies of the world (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for a thousand years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

iamthelordsforever said in post 1:

He tells us that He will return "like a thief in the night."

Jesus' coming as a thief in the night (1 Thes. 5:2) means he will come upon even Christians when they aren't expecting him only if they stop watching (staying awake, spiritually) during the tribulation. Compare the if principle of Rev. 3:3. Also, some in the church will still be alive on the earth during the tribulation's final stage, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Rev. 16:15). So his coming won't overtake them like a thief (1 Thes. 5:4, Mt. 24:43). Regarding Jesus coming as a thief to the unsaved world, when it isn't expecting him (1 Thes. 5:2-4, Mt. 24:39), nothing requires that the unsaved world will be expecting Jesus' second coming after the tribulation. For during the tribulation, the unsaved world could come to believe that his second coming has already happened (Mt. 24:24-26).

iamthelordsforever said in post 1:

This is why we are called to live lives pleasing to God, in order not to be caught unawares like the parable of the ten virgins told by Jesus Himself. (Matthew 25: 1-13)

The ten virgins parable (Matthew 25:1-13) shows that the marriage of the church to Jesus will not occur until his second coming (Matthew 25:10), which Jesus had just finished saying will not occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), just like Revelation 19:7 shows that the marriage will not occur until after the tribulation, shown in Revelation chapters 6 to 18. The parable's extra oil (Matthew 25:4,9b) could represent the continued good works of believers, by which they will be able to pass the judgment of the church by Jesus (Matthew 25:19-30, Romans 2:6-8) and enter the marriage of the church to Jesus at his second coming (Matthew 25:10, Revelation 19:7-21).

Similarly, the marriage supper (Revelation 19:9) has not yet begun by the time of Revelation 19, which will not occur until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18/Matthew 24. For regarding the church, the marriage supper will be a literal feast in the earthly Jerusalem after Jesus' second coming and the resurrection and marriage of the church at that time (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54). While the church will enjoy a feast "of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined" (Isaiah 25:6), the birds will feast on the corpses of the armies of the world defeated at Jesus' second coming (Revelation 19:17-21).

Also, regarding the ten virgins parable, in Matthew 25:6, "midnight" could represent mid-tribulation, when the abomination of desolation, possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist, could be set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). So when it says "at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh" (Matthew 25:6), this could mean that at the mid-tribulation point when the abomination of desolation is set up, the church will be given the knowledge of the date (as in the year, month, and day) of Jesus' second coming. This date could be the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, compare Revelation 16:15).
 
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Choose Wisely said in post 5:

If Rev 4 is the picture of the rapture . . .

Revelation 4:1 refers to only John the apostle, by himself, making an only-temporary visit up to the third heaven at one point during his lifetime back in the first century AD, just as 2 Corinthians 12:2 refers to only Paul the apostle, by himself, making an only-temporary visit up to the third heaven at one point during his lifetime back in the first century AD. Neither verse refers to the future rapture of the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Choose Wisely said in post 5:

The pre trib rapture will be secret . . .

Jesus' second coming and the rapture of the church won't be secret, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God" (1 Thes. 4:16), "with a great sound of a trumpet" (Mt. 24:31). And "as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Mt. 24:27,43-44). "Behold, I come as a thief" (Rev. 16:15), "Behold, he cometh with clouds [1 Thes. 4:17]; and every eye shall see him" (Rev. 1:7).

Choose Wisely said in post 5:

Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood.

If you think that the Flood is analogous to the tribulation (instead of the second coming), and that days are analogous to years, are you saying that the rapture will occur seven years before the tribulation? If so, why would that be, instead of the same day that the tribulation starts, like Noah went into the ark (for the last time) "in the selfsame day" that the Flood started (Genesis 7:11-17)? Luke 17:27 similarly shows that the Flood started the same day that Noah entered the ark (for the last time).

Or, if you think that the Flood is analogous to the second coming, then why can't the rapture (the gathering together of the church) be the same day as the second coming, immediately after the future tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6)?

Genesis 7:2-10 shows that Noah spent the seven days before the Flood gathering all the different animals into the ark. So Genesis 7:11-17 means simply that the entering of all the animals was completed on the same day that the Flood started. Since the analogy in Luke 17:26-37 and Matthew 24:37-41 compares the Flood to the second coming (Luke 17:30, Matthew 24:37b,39b), which Jesus had just finished saying will not happen until immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-30), Genesis 7:2-10 could have typified the "fulness of the Gentiles being come in" (Romans 11:25b) to salvation by the end of the (possibly seven-year) future tribulation which will immediately precede the second coming (Matthew 24:29-31), the second coming being when all unsaved elect genetic Israelites will become saved (Romans 11:25-29).
 
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Cogent said in post 6:

Our blessed hope is the return of Christ and the resurrection of the dead, not the rapture, that's a 19th century fable.

The idea of the rapture per se isn't a fable. For the English word "rapture" is derived from the root of the Latin word "rapiemur", which is how the old Latin (Vulgate) translation of the Bible translated the original Greek word (harpazo) translated as "caught up" in 1 Thes. 4:17. So the "rapture" is the church's being "caught up together" at Jesus' second coming (1 Thes. 4:15-17), which is the same as the church's being "gathered together" at his second coming (2 Thes. 2:1, Mt. 24:30-31), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18/Matthew 24 (Mt. 24:29-31, 2 Thes. 2:1-8, Rev. 19:7 to 20:6).

Christians need to be wary of the mistaken idea that no rapture will occur at Jesus' second coming, for such an idea could be employed in the future by the False Prophet (of Rev. 19:20, Rev. 13:13-15) to fool some Christians into thinking that Jesus' second coming has happened (Mt. 24:23-26) without Jesus having to have raptured (caught up together/gathered together) the church to hold a meeting in the sky with him at his second coming (1 Thes. 4:15-17; 2 Thes. 2:1, Mt. 24:30-31).
 
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Zadok7000

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So the "rapture" is the church's being "caught up together" at Jesus' second coming (1 Thes. 4:15-17), which is the same as the church's being "gathered together" at his second coming (2 Thes. 2:1, Mt. 24:30-31), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18/Matthew 24 (Mt. 24:29-31, 2 Thes. 2:1-8, Rev. 19:7 to 20:6).

Bingo. Our gathering together to Him at His return to reign CANNOT be separated Biblically.
 
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zeke37

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'For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And, the dead in Christ will rise first. Then, we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And, thus we shall always be with the Lord'
-1 Thessalonians 4: 16 & 17 (NKJV)

The Rapture. Just the mention of it fills my heart with excitement, expectation, and joy. However, there are many of those out there, even inside of the Church, who do not understand or believe that there will even be such an event. Let us dive into this subject, which is one of the most controversial topics in Christianity today.

For those of you out there who believes the Rapture will never happen, it comes down to the validity of the Bible. As we have already proven beyond a shadow of a doubt the validity of Scripture in the previous issue, I will skip that one. Next, the Rapture is referred to many times throughout the Bible. For examples refer to the verse above, Corinthians, and the Olivet Discourse in Matthew.

Some say since the word Rapture is not in the Bible, then it is a false doctrine. However, we must look at the word "Rapture" itself to fully understand where it comes from. In Greek, the original language that most of the New Testament was written in, the word 'harpazio' is used in the above verse. Harpazio means "snatch or seize". When Saint Jerome translated the original text into Latin in the 4th century, it became "rapturo", which means "to snatch away, to seize, or to tear away". The Rapture is a "snatching up" of Jesus' followers before the trials that are to be poured out upon the undecided and the wicked.
baloney ;)

there is no UP in the Greek manuscripts in 1Thes4.
it's seized

and it's not before the trials on the wicked and undecided
it's at the last day....see John 6 and 11
the righteous are raised at the last day
and that is just what 1Thes4 shows

For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works. - Titus 2: 11-14
not by leaving

In this verse, the Rapture is called the Blessed Hope. The Blessed Hope refers to the glorious expectation of our Lord Jesus' return. It will be a joyful event, that many opponents of the Rapture refer to as the "secret rapture".
no such thing exists in scripture (secret rapture)

However, it is clear that it will be widespread, obvious, and world-changing. The Bible says the Rapture will be preceded by Jesus' shout, a voice of an archangel, and a trumpet. Sounds the opposite of "secret".
just like Mat24/Mar13, 1Cor15, Rev11

But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect. -Matthew 20: 36-44
you realize that in the scripture you just quoted clearly says the wicked are to be taken,
and when we read the rest of the chapter,
we learn that the ones working for the Lord will remain.

The order of the Rapture is also explained. The dead in Christ, believers throughout the ages, will rise first. Imagine if you will, every grave or coffin that contains a believer is suddenly empty. Morgues emptied of bodies. A wake loses its' star attraction.
that is just not so...
that won't happen literally...
symbolically yep, but not literally.

the rising or Resurrection,
is Christ bringing the righteous dead with Him, from Heaven,
at His Coming at the last day
and "raising" them back to life here on earth as promised
in their spiritual body, not flesh
...see 1Cor15

Immediately after this happens, every believer alive will be "caught up" to the clouds to meet Jesus and the dead in Christ.
as i said, no "up" in the manuscripts
here's the cloud

Mat24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(mark adds, gather His elect from heaven and earth)

Heb12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Rev1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

1Thes3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

we know He's Coming here, as He left....
Acts1 says why r u looking up????

we are NOT going UP to meet Him...He's Coming DOWN TO GATHER US

Now absorb what we are saying. Factory workers, airline pilots, train conductors, teachers, doctors disappear in the "twinkling of an eye". Mayhem, chaos, and anarchy ensue as driverless cars, planes, trains, and trucks careen out of control. A husband wakes up early to go to work, rolls over to kiss his wife "good morning", and encounters only a night gown and wedding ring.
COMPLETE NONESENSE
I guess you are either a pre tribber or a mid tribber

With all of the Christians taken away, the lawless and evil masses will begin rioting, looting, and marshal law will be instituted. A scary but inevitable scene. This is the world the unbelievers will be left to live in.
WELL, THE WORLD IS PRETTY MUCH THERE ALREADY
AND THAT INCLUDES PLENTY THAT CALL THEMSELVES CHRISTIANS

WHAT U HAVE DESCRIBED IS A FANTASY...A FICTIONAL ACCOUNT
NOT REALITY

For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.
-1 Thessalonians 1: 9-10
YET YOU GUYS WANNA LEAVE THE PLANET EARLY?
WHILE WE STILL HAVE PLENTY OF WITNESSING TO DO?

There are two main reasons, other than Scripture of course, that should cause us to take the Rapture seriously. First, history, especially, Biblical history, shows God's unwillingness for His people to go through the trials awaiting the wicked. The trials in this case being the tribulation, which we will discuss in later issues. Noah escaped the flood. Lot escaped Sodom. Israel escaped Egypt.
whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?
WHAT BIBLE ARE YOU READING?
MY BIBLE SAYS YHVH DOES PUT US THROUGH TRIALS AND TESTS.
YHVH KILLED OFF ALL THE OTHER ADAMICS, EXCEPT ADAM and his immediate family.
YHVH KILLED LOTS WIFE.
EVERY SINGLE PERSON EXCEPT 2, THAT LEFT EGYPT, NEVER MADE IT TO THE HOLY LAND
THEY ALL DIED IN THE WILDERNESS WHILE Israel TRAVELLED TO THE HOLY LAND
THEY PROCREATED AND HAD KIDS, AND IT WAS THEIR DESCENDANTS THAT MADE IT WITH Joshua AND CALEB
BUT YHVH KILLED ALL OF THEM THAT LEFT EGYPT, OFF, BEFOE EVER GETTING TO ISRAEL.

But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.
-1 Thessalonians 5: 1-3
1THES4:13-1THES5:11 IS ALL SPEAKING OF THE EXACT SAME DAY
SAME DAY FOR UNBELIEVERS, AS FOR BELIEVERS

THE ONES NOT LOOKING FOR IT, WON'T SEE IT COMING...
THE ONES LOOKING FOR IT, WILL SEE IT COMING

The second, Jesus tells us that His return for believers will be imminent and unpredictable. He tells us that He will return "like a thief in the night." This is why we are called to live lives pleasing to God, in order not to be caught unawares like the parable of the ten virgins told by Jesus Himself. (Matthew 25: 1-13)
ONLY THOSE NOT LOOKING FOR HIS COMING, WILL BE UNAWARE.
THE ELECT WILL KNOW THE SEASON

In conclusion, if you are saved, begin reading and researching the Rapture for yourself. It will be the most important event in your life. In Part 2, I will explain the main differing opinions about the timing of the Rapture. Will it be Pre or before the tribulation? Midtribulation? Posttribulation or at the end of the tribulation?
POST TRIBULATION IS AT THE END OF THE TRIBULATION
AND THAT IS WHEN THE RAPTURE OCCURS


I WAS A PRE TRIBBER, UNTIL I LOOKED FOR MYSELF...
ITS NOT THERE. I REALLY LOOKED TOO.

HEARD IT AL FOR YEARS...SO I BET I KNOW EACH OF YOUR POINTS YOU WILL MAKE.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A PRE TRIB RAPTURE
AND BELIEVING IN ONE, WILL MAKE YOU RIPE FOR DECEPTION DURING THE END TIMES TEST.


PS...BASICALLY ALL OF US HERE, HAVE ALREADY FORMED AN OPINION ABOUT THE TIMING OF THE RAPTURE
SO TACKLE IT FROM THAT ANGLE, INSTEAD OF A KINDERGARDEN LEVEL.

SOME HERE WILL DEBATE YOU ON THE RAPTURE (IN GENERAL) EXISTING
BUT MOST OF US HERE AT THIS SECTION, ALREADY KNOW IT WILL OCCUR

WE'VE ALL BEEN STUDYING IT FOR YEARS
 
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I appreciate your comments. The fact that the Pre-trib Rapture is so vehemently opposed should come as no surprise. Jesus said that in the last days people would give in to doctrines of demons. Since the emergent church movement, there are a multitude of troubling beliefs that have come to light. First to answer some of your points, I'm not sure what you mean by 'raptures'. However, I do find the 7 day correlation interesting. I believe that the shout is from Jesus calling us home. The Rapture, however, will be anything but secret. It will be the the most public and devastating event in the past couple thousand years. Now, to answer the Posttribbers, I applaud your desire to share what you believe in. I have many reasons why no other Rapture, or the lack there of, will work. This is just part 1 in a 3 part article I wrote awhile back. My main argument for any and all: godly living and imminence. No other view requires us to live Christ-centered lives and to be prepared at any time. None other than the Pretrib view allows Jesus to return at any moment. I have read through the arguments for and against all views, and can understand why you could believe them. But, they are false when faced with those two requirements set down in Scripture. Thank you all! And God bless.
 
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zeke37

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I appreciate your comments. The fact that the Pre-trib Rapture is so vehemently opposed should come as no surprise.
IT IS NO SUPRISE IF U FOLLOW REPEATED SOUND DOCTRINE

Jesus said that in the last days people would give in to doctrines of demons.
PRE TRIB QUALIFIES EASILY

Since the emergent church movement, there are a multitude of troubling beliefs that have come to light. First to answer some of your points, I'm not sure what you mean by 'raptures'. However, I do find the 7 day correlation interesting. I believe that the shout is from Jesus calling us home. The Rapture, however, will be anything but secret. It will be the the most public and devastating event in the past couple thousand years. Now, to answer the Posttribbers, I applaud your desire to share what you believe in. I have many reasons why no other Rapture, or the lack there of, will work. This is just part 1 in a 3 part article I wrote awhile back. My main argument for any and all: godly living and imminence. No other view requires us to live Christ-centered lives and to be prepared at any time. None other than the Pretrib view allows Jesus to return at any moment.
CHRIST NEVER SAID THAT HE COULD RETURN AT ANY MOMENT
INFACT, HE GAVE US PLENTY OF SIGNS
THAT DEFINITELY SHOW US THAT IT CANNOT BE AT ANY MOMENT

I have read through the arguments for and against all views, and can understand why you could believe them. But, they are false when faced with those two requirements set down in Scripture. Thank you all! And God bless.
IMMINENCY IS A FALSE BELIEF
AND ARE U SUGGESTING THAT ONLY PRE TRIBBER LIVE CHRIST-CENTERED LIVES?
 
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ebedmelech

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I understand that the new teachings are against the Rapture, particularly the Pre-tribulational Rapture. However, that is the truth that the Bible contains. People can argue till they are blue in the face, but the result will be the same. Desire to sin is a great motivator to not believe that Jesus will remove His elect from danger before the wrath that is coming to punish the wicked. And thank you for the kind welcome. I am sure it'll be close to the last nice thing anyone says to me before I am done.
Actually you have that in reverse. The "pre trib" rapture is the "new teaching". How many creeds even embrace a pre trib rapture? NONE! That should tell you the early church never taught that.

You're saying Christ will remove *His people*...but where do you find that amongst the apostles? Every one of them died a martyrs death but John!

I have been where you are. The teaching is that before God destroyed the first world he got his people out (Noah and his family), the error of that is God made it clear to Noah from the beginning only he and his family would be saved...so that doesn't wash.

Then there's "Sodom and Gomorrah"... which hardly is a picture of a rapture. There are many instances in scripture of God judging evil and sparing those who lived for Him...so that doesn't show a rapture either.

Many want to embrace the rapture because it's an escape...but just as many scriptures tell us to be prepared to suffer for living for Christ. In America, we don't see much of it because we have "freedom of religion" (which is being chipped away)...but there have been many many saints suffering for Christ throughout this world and history.

The "pre trib" rapture is a fantasy as I read scripture. Believe that if you want, but examine the scripture and there is no clear pre trib rapture.

The most abused passage is 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18...and when one soberly examines that passage, it speaks of resurrection NOT rapture. The "last trumpet" is the final call...no salvation after that...it's over!
 
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Handmaid for Jesus

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I appreciate your comments. The fact that the Pre-trib Rapture is so vehemently opposed should come as no surprise. Jesus said that in the last days people would give in to doctrines of demons. Since the emergent church movement, there are a multitude of troubling beliefs that have come to light. First to answer some of your points, I'm not sure what you mean by 'raptures'. However, I do find the 7 day correlation interesting. I believe that the shout is from Jesus calling us home. The Rapture, however, will be anything but secret. It will be the the most public and devastating event in the past couple thousand years. Now, to answer the Posttribbers, I applaud your desire to share what you believe in. I have many reasons why no other Rapture, or the lack there of, will work. This is just part 1 in a 3 part article I wrote awhile back. My main argument for any and all: godly living and imminence. No other view requires us to live Christ-centered lives and to be prepared at any time. None other than the Pretrib view allows Jesus to return at any moment. I have read through the arguments for and against all views, and can understand why you could believe them. But, they are false when faced with those two requirements set down in Scripture. Thank you all! And God bless.


You are completely correct of course. But, you will never get these people to believe it. The only thing that may convince them is the actual rapture happening. Even so, come Lord Jesus.
 
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Manasseh_

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another of a long line of pretrib threads attempting to validate their false doctrine with the constant and shameful misuse of scripture

case in point.....................1Thess 4 used again as one of their favorite "proof texts"

read the whole chapter..............here's what you don't find in it

Paul doesn't mention the great tribulation at all
Since this isn't mentioned Paul says nothing at all about whether Christ comes before or after tribulation to gather his saints

so how do pretribbers know from these verse it happens before tribulation ?...................THEY DON'T

THEY ASSUME IT.........to say the least NOT a proper way to establish any doctrine...............God doesn't leave his servants in the dark in his word, He doesn't work with "what ifs" , assumptions, speculation, conjecture................


Why do they assume it ?..............because they have no other choice since in the whole Bible there's not one verse that explicitly says Christ comes before tribulation, no prophecy or promise whether in the OT or NT, not from one prophet, apostle or Christ himself

they are slaves to this false doctrine, using the same 10 to 20 verses over and over again with the same results, every verse used includes their assumption injected into the verse

everytime this is pointed out to them their only "intelligent" response is a non-response response............they side track, change the subject, dance around the main issue but never giving any kind of valid answer as to why they place their pretrib assumptions on all the verses they use as proof text, if pressed on this issue they will finally ignore it altogether continuing with the same tired premise

from the beginning any verse(s) that directly contradicts their doctrine posed problems and the only way these problem texts could be dealt with was to get creative and attempt to change the simple meaning of the texts........this results in the most often pretrib cliche response "that verse isn't talking about " then they fill in the blanks with their creative rearranging or altogether changing of the text, all with the simple motive of making the verses fit their doctrine instead of spending their energy to find whether their doctrine is clearly established in scripture

this doctrine is false to the core and it's nothing but another of satan's lies and his attempts to deceive people............for many of this doctrines' proponants there will never be any convincing them that it is a lie, a dotrine based on nothing but assumptions..............they will only realize this when it's too late, this is not what God wishes but at the same time he does not force his ways on anyone
 
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