The Biblical view of homosexuality

spiritfilledjm · Sep 28, 2021

hedrick said:
I suspect the majority view in this forum would be that 2 Tim is not actually by Paul, and thus is suspect. But even if it is, being "useful" is far from being error-free.

2 Timothy 1:1

PloverWing · Sep 28, 2021

spiritfilledjm said:
2 Timothy 1:1

Nevertheless, there has been debate among scholars during the last couple of centuries about whether the Pastoral Epistles are genuinely St Paul's, or whether they are later documents attributed to St Paul. Keep in mind that this is the WWMC-Liberal forum. Most Liberal Christians would carefully consider the work of modern New Testament scholars in forming their opinions about authorship.

spiritfilledjm · Sep 28, 2021

PloverWing said:
Nevertheless, there has been debate among scholars during the last couple of centuries about whether the Pastoral Epistles are genuinely St Paul's, or whether they are later documents attributed to St Paul. Keep in mind that this is the WWMC-Liberal forum. Most Liberal Christians would carefully consider the work of modern New Testament scholars in forming their opinions about authorship.

I know this is going to get deleted, I do not care. Gotta love the arrogance of modern people that think they know better than the folks who knew the people that wrote the books, or people that knew people that were mentored and trained by the person that wrote the books, that we suddenly, almost 2000 years later, know better than they did. Polycarp, Clement, and Irenaeus all attest that it was Paul that wrote the Pastoral Epistles. That, in combination, with the fact that it starts off with what it does in 2 Timothy 1:1 should be good enough for any real student of the Bible.

SkyWriting · Sep 28, 2021

PloverWing said:
Most Liberal Christians would carefully consider the work of modern New Testament scholars in forming their opinions about authorship.

If I would never "consider the work of modern New Testament scholars" then is that liberal or conservative leaning?

SkyWriting · Sep 28, 2021

spiritfilledjm said:
I know this is going to get deleted, I do not care. Gotta love the arrogance of modern people that think they know better than the folks who knew the people that wrote the books, or people that knew people that were mentored and trained by the person that wrote the books, that we suddenly, almost 2000 years later, know better than they did. Polycarp, Clement, and Irenaeus all attest that it was Paul that wrote the Pastoral Epistles. That, in combination, with the fact that it starts off with what it does in 2 Timothy 1:1 should be good enough for any real student of the Bible.

You are free to state your opinion as you see it. But to be in this forum, you must allow others to not be in line with your views.

To be less knobby, just delete "Real" from real student.

PloverWing · Sep 28, 2021

SkyWriting said:
If I would never "consider the work of modern New Testament scholars" then is that liberal or conservative leaning?

I don't have a label for the philosophy of rejecting modern scholarship. I think that's something like what the early Fundamentalists were trying to do, a century ago, setting aside higher criticism and the like, to return to what they saw as the Fundamentals of the faith. (Hence, "Fundamentalist-Modernist controversy".) But the word "Fundamentalist" has changed in meaning over time, becoming a mere insult now, so it's no longer a useful label for a school of thought within Christianity. I invite you to invent your own label.

I meant merely to point out that one important characteristic of Liberal Christianity is the willingness to seriously consider modern scholarship in all its forms -- higher criticism, archaeology, the natural sciences, psychology, and so on -- and to incorporate insights from these fields into our understanding of the Christian faith. To be clear, this doesn't mean accepting the work of modern scholars uncritically; part of the idea of science and scholarship is that knowledge changes over time, and that we should evaluate ideas critically, using reason and evidence. But it does mean that we take modern scholarship very seriously, and we might, as a result, depart from some traditional elements of Christian thought in the face of compelling reasoning and evidence.

Aussie Pete · Sep 29, 2021

SkyWriting said:
Proverbs 14:21
Whoever despises his neighbor is a sinner, but blessed is he who is generous to the poor.

All the neighbours in Israel were fellow Israelites. They were, in effect, the OT church. The world is that system formed by Satan with the cooperation of fallen mankind. This is the world that the Lord Jesus overcame, it's the world that gives us tribulation and it's the world that is controlled by the evil one. We are told that being a friend of the world makes us God's enemy. "Do not love the world or the things of the world". That is what I'm talking about.

God's intent is not that we should change the world. It is that we rescue people from its clutches and bring them into God's kingdom.

Gregory Thompson · Sep 29, 2021

Aussie Pete said:
God's intent is not that we should change the world. It is that we rescue people from its clutches and bring them into God's kingdom.

Sounds comical in contrast to a saying about helping the poor. Due to the parable of the sheep and goats, and James discussion on faith without works is dead.

Helping those who are less fortunate is central to the gospel teachings and a physical appreciation of the grace God has given us in our own spiritual poverty.

SkyWriting · Sep 29, 2021

Aussie Pete said:
All the neighbours in Israel were fellow Israelites. They were, in effect, the OT church. The world is that system formed by Satan with the cooperation of fallen mankind. This is the world that the Lord Jesus overcame, it's the world that gives us tribulation and it's the world that is controlled by the evil one. We are told that being a friend of the world makes us God's enemy. "Do not love the world or the things of the world". That is what I'm talking about.
God's intent is not that we should change the world. It is that we rescue people from its clutches and bring them into God's kingdom.

That is referring to physical things over spiritual. Don't love fast cars and loose women. Don't love alcohol and tall buildings with "Trump" emblazoned on them. Don't love that physical stuff.

Luke 10:25-37
And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How do you read it?” And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” And he said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live.” But he, desiring to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?

Aussie Pete · Sep 29, 2021

Michael Collum said:
Sounds comical in contrast to a saying about helping the poor. Due to the parable of the sheep and goats, and James discussion on faith without works is dead.

Helping those who are less fortunate is central to the gospel teachings and a physical appreciation of the grace God has given us in our own spiritual poverty.

You do not know what the world is. It's not people. It's a system. It is controlled by Satan. Being friends with the world makes you God's enemy. We are commanded not to love the world or the things of the world. It's in God's word. I take it seriously.

We help homeless people, we've given a convicted criminal enough money to pay for a second hand car so he could get a job and stay out of prison. Don't confuse the people of the world with the world system.

Gregory Thompson · Sep 29, 2021

Aussie Pete said:
You do not know what the world is. It's not people. It's a system. It is controlled by Satan. Being friends with the world makes you God's enemy. We are commanded not to love the world or the things of the world. It's in God's word. I take it seriously.

We help homeless people, we've given a convicted criminal enough money to pay for a second hand car so he could get a job and stay out of prison. Don't confuse the people of the world with the world system.

Sounds very colonial in perspective.

Aussie Pete · Sep 29, 2021

It's exactly what the Bible says. Take it up with God. That's my perspective.

hedrick · Sep 30, 2021

spiritfilledjm said:
I know this is going to get deleted, I do not care. Gotta love the arrogance of modern people that think they know better than the folks who knew the people that wrote the books, or people that knew people that were mentored and trained by the person that wrote the books, that we suddenly, almost 2000 years later, know better than they did. Polycarp, Clement, and Irenaeus all attest that it was Paul that wrote the Pastoral Epistles. That, in combination, with the fact that it starts off with what it does in 2 Timothy 1:1 should be good enough for any real student of the Bible.

Without the critical mindset, the church accepted the Donation of Constantine as legitimate, and ignored the problems of the Vulgate translation. Feel free to reject critical scholarship, but since the Reformation was the result of the early stages of it, I don’t see how you can be a Protestant after doing so.

hedrick · Sep 30, 2021

We don't know as much as we would like about the early church, including specifics of how they decided on the canon. But I think we know enough. There were books where there was some information about where they came from. Mark is probably the best example. But others don't have that information, and in fact were disputed for centuries. In many cases they got accepted eventually simply because they were widely used, i.e. they were popular.

But this is exactly how we got many ideas about and the saints, and other things where "popular piety" was more important than actual evidence.

We should pay attention to early traditions. But we should also look carefully to see what they are based on.

SkyWriting · Oct 2, 2021

Aussie Pete said:
You do not know what the world is. It's not people. It's a system.

It's people. You are mistaken.

SkyWriting · Oct 2, 2021

Aussie Pete said:
Don't confuse the people of the world with the world system.

The world system (whatever) is created by God.

The Liturgist · Oct 18, 2021

Anthony2019 said:
I would be interested to hear what you would have to say about me.
- someone who has had same sex inclinations/attractions ever since his teens, and still even today.
- someone who has fasted, prayed, had Christian counselling, and done everything, time and time again to alter his same sex attractions, but without any change in orientation.
- someone who has never had a same sex relationship, and has always remained chaste and celibate. Someone who still sees men more attractive than women, but finds it easy not to act on those attractions.
- someone who believes Jesus is the Son of God, who died for his sins.
- someone who has a faith, who reads and studies the Bible, attends church regularly and has a prayer life.

I think you are a virtuous Christian living a life of holy celibacy, like me (although in my case, I am heterosexual; I am celibate as I was engaged to be married, but it fell apart, and the pain was immense, and I have never engaged in casual sex and find the concept revolting and contrary to the Christian faith, so unless and until God leads me to a woman who loves me, I will assume he desires from me holy celibacy).

The Liturgist · Oct 18, 2021

hedrick said:
Without the critical mindset, the church accepted the Donation of Constantine as legitimate, and ignored the problems of the Vulgate translation. Feel free to reject critical scholarship, but since the Reformation was the result of the early stages of it, I don’t see how you can be a Protestant after doing so.

The Vulgate Translation is less important than Western Christians make it out to be. The ecumenical councils all concerned issues in the Greek church, which used the Septuagint and different textual variants of the original Koine Greek New Testament, with minimal involvement from the Bishop of Rome except in the Council of Chalcedon, when Archbishop Leo’s Tome defined a new Christological model similiar but not identical to the Ephesian model proposed by St. Cyril the Great; also Pope Dioscorus of Alexandria was unjustly deposed.

In addition to the Latin and Greek fathers (and the Latin fathers were mostly bilingual, and not constrained to the Vulgate or Vetus Latina, but rather had access to the Greek texts and the works of Origen, such as the tragically lost Hexapla, which compared six versions of the Old Testament, suggesting a critical mindset, the other group of important early church fathers were the Syriac Fathers such as St. Ephrem, St. Jacob of Sarugh, St. Isaac, Mar Narsai, Mar Babai the Great, Mar Gregorios bar Hebraeus, Mar Dionysius bar Salibi, and many others, and they, after suffering since the second century with Tatian’s miserable Gospel harmony the Diatessaron, and a series or complex and difficult to read Bibles, got the Peshitta (meaning “Simple”) in the fourth century, which along with the Vulgate and the KJV, is among the most beloved and long-lived translations.

spiritfilledjm · Oct 18, 2021

Vulgate, Septuagint, KJV, Message, NIV, QJV, look at the very Greek of 2 Timothy 1:1

Παῦλος ἀπόστολος Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ διὰ θελήματος Θεοῦ κατ’ ἐπαγγελίαν ζωῆς τῆς ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ
Paulos apostolos Christou Iesou dia thelematos Theou kat' epangelian zoes - en Christo Iesou
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by [the] will of God, according to [the] promise of life - in Christ Jesus,

Even if the writing style is somewhat different than Paul's other epistles that can be easily explained by the fact that it was written during his second imprisonment in Rome shortly before his martyrdom.

SkyWriting · Oct 18, 2021

The Liturgist said:
I think you are a virtuous Christian living a life of holy celibacy, like me (although in my case, I am heterosexual; I am celibate as I was engaged to be married, but it fell apart, and the pain was immense, and I have never engaged in casual sex and find the concept revolting and contrary to the Christian faith, so unless and until God leads me to a woman who loves me, I will assume he desires from me holy celibacy).

Not only is your sex life not anyone elses business, but nobody want to know about it and nobody ever wants to check up on you either. I've never seen any of my neighbors having sex in the last 50 years. They can do what they want without my judgment.

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