There are rare hints at the Trinity in the OT, then again it could be because Jeremiah is speaking, this is after all a chapter where Jeremiah is describing a dialogue between himself and God discussing the coming Babylonian invasion. Which is more likely? That Jeremiah is speaking describing his vision, or that God decides to throw in one of those rare Trinitarian allusions, but one that doesn't actually tell us is it is Trinitrian, because it does not actually tell us God is speaking about God in the third person.
Okay, let's dissect the chapter to see who is speaking and when....
Jeremiah 24:8 For this gird you with sackcloth, lament and howl: for
the fierce anger of the LORD is not turned back from us.
"From us"...this is Jeremiah speaking and he continues....
24:10 Then
said I, Ah, Lord GOD! surely
thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, Ye shall have peace; whereas the sword reacheth unto the soul.
God answers...
24:11-12 At that time shall it be said to this people and to Jerusalem, A dry wind of the high places in the wilderness toward the daughter of
My people, not to fan, nor to cleanse, Even a full wind from those places shall
come unto Me: now also will
I give sentence against them.
God gives sentence...not Jeremiah.
24:13 Behold, he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles.
Woe unto us! for we are spoiled.
That was Jeremiah speaking for "we are spoiled" wouldn't include God.
24:16-17
Make ye mention to the nations; behold,
publish against Jerusalem, that watchers come from a far country, and give out their voice against the cities of Judah. As keepers of a field, are they against her round about; because she hath been rebellious against Me,
saith the LORD.
There the Lord is instructing Jeremiah on what to publish.
24:20-22 Destruction upon destruction is cried; for the whole land is spoiled: suddenly are
My tents spoiled, and
My curtains in a moment. How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet? For
My people is foolish, they have
not known Me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.
Tents are tabernacles...they are bodies that hold souls. Our tents don't belong to Jeremiah so we know this is the Lord speaking. That is further substantiated in the words "My people," and "not known Me." The Lord continues speaking, warning, giving an example of what happened before.....
24:23-26
I beheld the earth, and, lo,
it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
I beheld, and, lo,
there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and
all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by His fierce anger.
That is the Lord speaking...telling us that He "beheld the earth," and it is all in past tense...and yes, that has relevance. The state of the earth was exactly as described in the beginning of Genesis. Whether you agree that it was Jeremiah speaking or God speaking....it was about the previous age.
24:27-28 For
thus hath the LORD said, The whole land
shall be desolate; yet
will I not make a full end. For this
shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above
be black; because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and
will not repent, neither
will I turn back from it.
There Jeremiah is telling us what "the Lord said." It is prophesy, it is future. "shall be desolate, will I not make, shall the earth, heavens above be, etc." Future!
I though you relied on the AV? Anyway, giving this is a completely new description on a completely new theme, a vision of destruction, rather than God's explanation of the reason, the new sentence and verse division are justified. Your effort to conflate the two sections isn't.
I do rely on the KJV. But, as I have stated previously, there are mistakes because it is man that translated. I'm not giving a new description. It has always been there. We just needed eyes to see.
You know that how? This isn't God saying he is writhing in anguish, that his intestines are in agony, and his heart beating wildly. God answers Jeremiah quite calmly, it is Jeremiah who is horrified at the coming destruction of his land.
I agree. [24:19] is Jeremiah speaking. As I said previously, God speaks in verse 20. Notice that the "
My tents," are in verse 20.
Thus says the Lord is Jeremiah speaking to tell us what follows is what God said. Which leaves the vision of the coming destruction what Jeremiah saw.
When He tells us
"I beheld" He is telling us what happened in the first earth age. He is using that example to warn of the future. When the king of Babylon took the Jews captive the earth wasn't "
without form and void."
So do you have any reason to think the vision was God speaking?
Yes, I have given you the reasons.
Because the chapter isn't about the coming destruction of the planet it is about the coming destruction of the land of Judah. You can say the land is the land is the land, but the fact is you are trying to make the vision speak of a completely different meaning of erets to the one used before the vision and after. Without a clear indication in the vision that the meaning of land is changed, the context tells us the vision is describing the destruction of Judah.
History repeats and it repeats on the same earth. The ages change but not the earth.
1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
Ecclesiastes 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
Which is it, was the Lord talking about the past or the future? Why did God given a vision of the destruction of the land, then say the whole land will be desolate, if he was talking about two completely differnt things? Why would he say he was talking about to completey different things? Why should we think he was talking about two completely different things when there isn't a hint in the text that he was?
Both past and future. He used the destruction of the first age as an example of the future....a warning.
The tenses are irrelevant for your claim the destruction happened in the past. What is written is that the vision was in the past, not that the events in the vision were in the past. Unfortunately this is your only evidence the destruction had already happened, that Jeremiah 4 was referering to a previous destruction rather than the coming Babylonian invasion the chapter is actually talking about. But as we have seen visions in the bible describe future events like the resurrection and the last judgement in the past tense, because the prophet is describing what he has see. Unless you want to claim the resurrection has already taken place too
The earth itself is witness to the first age Assyrian. The Babylonian invasion could hardly account for the destruction named in those verses. We know the earth is ancient, we see signs of a global flood, we see signs of the katalbo, we are now finding evidence of ancient cities that were inhabited long, long before scientist credit man with having even yet evolved from apes much less come out of their caves. We, as Christians, know there is a following age...why are you so reluctant to recognize a previous age?
Did you try really, really hard not to laugh?
I knew you couldn't help yourself. I get that all the time and yet....I've seen one so I know.
'Bird of the heavens' and 'birds of the air' are the same phase in Hebrew, simply different translations. It is the same 'oph shamayim we read about God creating in Gen 1:20 and 2:19, who were taken on board the ark Gen 6:7 and is used to describe ordinary flying birds throughout the OT.
Yes, they were taken on board the ark and they were not literal birds.
There is nothing to suggest you fanciful interpretation, or you even more fanciful explanation of where they went. To the ordinary Hebrew reader these were simple feathered birds who had all fled the land, which of course they couldn't do if this really referred to a the destruction of the planet.
We are not to be the "
ordinary Hebrew reader" Assyrian. He asks more of us. We are His "
peculiar people," His "
jewels," and as such...teaches us more and expects more.
There is something wrong whirlwind, when you have to resort to a series of bizarre explanations to justify an out of context Gap interpretation that the passage itself does not even hint at.
It need not "
hint" for it is plainly written. There are many things He teaches...we just have to be ready to hear. He knows when that time is.
Hebrews 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, andhard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
We're on forums, such as this one, to increase our knowledge...to improve our hearing and vision.
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