The Beast

[GreenMunchkin]

[BIBLE]Revelation 13:4-5[/BIBLE]

[BIBLE]Revelation 17:13[/BIBLE]

So, who or what is the beast?

[BIBLE]Revelation 13:11-12[/BIBLE]

And in the above passage, we are told there will be two beasts so who, or what, is the second beast?

 

[3girls2dogs]

I have always felt horrible feeling this way, and I have no real way to explain why I think this way, but I have always felt that we (America) are the first beast.

 

[Time2BCounted]

[BIBLE]Revelation 13:4-5[/BIBLE]

[BIBLE]Revelation 17:13[/BIBLE]

So, who or what is the beast?

[BIBLE]Revelation 13:11-12[/BIBLE]

And in the above passage, we are told there will be two beasts so who, or what, is the second beast?

Hi GM
According to the scriptures 'beast' has a couple meanings. One is a system of global governance, depicted in the 7 heads of the beast. At the time of the writing of revelation 5 had fallen (greece, media persia, babylon, egypt, and Nimrods one world kingdom.) One was in existance, Rome, and one yet to come, which i believe is the empire of the usa.

Then there are 2 men who are called a beast, one comes from the earth and one from the sea. The first beast rises to great prominance as a king or president. He is powerful and there is an attempted assassinaiton, the bible isnt clear as to whether he really dies or just appears to die, but the way it is worded, i would say he simply appears to have been killed.

There is an apparent resurrection of this evil man and the wolrd gives him their power to rule, as a second beast goes on to fill the position as leader, king or president, vacated by the first beast as he (the first beast) takes power over the world. This second beast works to glorify the first beast and make people worship him as god of the new world order. The first beast is the antichrist, the second beast is the false prophet.

 

[Simon_Templar]

The term "anti-christ" is some what misleading in being applied to only one of these persons because in reality they are both anti-christ. They both are false christs in different ways.

In my opinion, the first beast is the same as the figure from the end of Daniel chapter 9, sometimes referred to as the "Prince of Rome". He is primarily a military, political figure, probably an economic powerhouse as well.
The second beast, or false prophet, is (again in my opinion) the same as the "king who does according to his will" from Daniel chapter 11 (verse 36 onward).

As T2B pointed out, the first beast rises out of the multitude of waters, and the second beast rises out of the land. This symbolism has been often misunderstood, but its relatively simple, and it is actually laid out in scripture. Multitudes of waters refers to the gentile nations, "the land" refers to Israel.

T2B is correct about Rev 17 and the 7 kings represented by the 7 heads of the beast. (although he actually lists 6 for the first 5) I personally don't think the 7th which will come and remain for a short time is the USA. It is more likely to be either Nazi Germany.. or the very short lived coalition which brings the beast to power at the end.
The one thing that all the nations in represented have in common is that they attempted an overt destruction of God's people. The USA has never done this, so unless the USA unleashes an attempted genocide of the Jews, or possibly christians.. I don't think that it fits.

Going back to the beasts... one of them will rise from the gentile nations, and will likely have connections to Rome, either directly or thematically, or he may claim to be re-inventing the legacy of Rome. He will be a military power house.

The second beast will arise in Israel and will appear at first to be the long awaited Jewish Messiah (which is why he appears like a lamb in revelation). He will covenant with the 1st beast, using the power of the 1st beast to over throw Israel's enemies. In turn he will honor the 1st beast with great financial gifts, and eventually worship.

The 1st beast will eventually declare himself to be God, and the 2nd beast will act as his prophet, teaching his new religion and teaching people to worship the 1st beast.
When that occurs the Jews will realize at last, that the 2nd beast is not their messiah and that they have been had. Then begins the massive persecution (ie the tribulation). This tribulation is the final purification of God's people by fire before his return.

 

[Time2BCounted]

The term "anti-christ" is some what misleading in being applied to only one of these persons because in reality they are both anti-christ. They both are false christs in different ways.

In my opinion, the first beast is the same as the figure from the end of Daniel chapter 9, sometimes referred to as the "Prince of Rome". He is primarily a military, political figure, probably an economic powerhouse as well.
The second beast, or false prophet, is (again in my opinion) the same as the "king who does according to his will" from Daniel chapter 11 (verse 36 onward).

As T2B pointed out, the first beast rises out of the multitude of waters, and the second beast rises out of the land. This symbolism has been often misunderstood, but its relatively simple, and it is actually laid out in scripture. Multitudes of waters refers to the gentile nations, "the land" refers to Israel.

T2B is correct about Rev 17 and the 7 kings represented by the 7 heads of the beast. (although he actually lists 6 for the first 5) I personally don't think the 7th which will come and remain for a short time is the USA. It is more likely to be either Nazi Germany.. or the very short lived coalition which brings the beast to power at the end.
The one thing that all the nations in represented have in common is that they attempted an overt destruction of God's people. The USA has never done this, so unless the USA unleashes an attempted genocide of the Jews, or possibly christians.. I don't think that it fits.

Going back to the beasts... one of them will rise from the gentile nations, and will likely have connections to Rome, either directly or thematically, or he may claim to be re-inventing the legacy of Rome. He will be a military power house.

The second beast will arise in Israel and will appear at first to be the long awaited Jewish Messiah (which is why he appears like a lamb in revelation). He will covenant with the 1st beast, using the power of the 1st beast to over throw Israel's enemies. In turn he will honor the 1st beast with great financial gifts, and eventually worship.

The 1st beast will eventually declare himself to be God, and the 2nd beast will act as his prophet, teaching his new religion and teaching people to worship the 1st beast.
When that occurs the Jews will realize at last, that the 2nd beast is not their messiah and that they have been had. Then begins the massive persecution (ie the tribulation). This tribulation is the final purification of God's people by fire before his return.

Good catch Simon, on the 6. I should have left it at 5 but i am referancing a theory that very early Egypt is actually an extention or offshoot of Nimrods kingdom.

Here is a passage i find very interesting form rev 13...

11 Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon. 12 He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed.

This causes me to believe that after the first beast ascends to power over the world, he leaves a spot of leadership open (from which he just vacated to take power over the earth) and the second beast takes his former position.

 

[psalms 91]

One is political which is evidenced by our movements towards world government and from other scripture will include the old Roman empire. Right now just here we are moving towards a North American coalliance and it is easy to see. The second is religious and refers to the system that will worship the first beast. There are many theories on this and I have my own but aI will leave it at that. By the way as far as America goes you might find Ezekiel 38 and 39 very interesting. Where are we in these scriptures? Also notice the names of the countries and translate them and you find some very interesting allignments.

 

[Simon_Templar]

One is political which is evidenced by our movements towards world government and from other scripture will include the old Roman empire. Right now just here we are moving towards a North American coalliance and it is easy to see. The second is religious and refers to the system that will worship the first beast. There are many theories on this and I have my own but aI will leave it at that. By the way as far as America goes you might find Ezekiel 38 and 39 very interesting. Where are we in these scriptures? Also notice the names of the countries and translate them and you find some very interesting allignments.

I have heard numerous theories on the US being present in Ezekiel 38&39.. personally the only place I see the US likely to be represented there is in the "merchants of Tarshish and the young lions thereof" which is probably a reference to England and England's former colonies.

 

[Simon_Templar]

Good catch Simon, on the 6. I should have left it at 5 but i am referancing a theory that very early Egypt is actually an extention or offshoot of Nimrods kingdom.

Here is a passage i find very interesting form rev 13...

11 Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon. 12 He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed.

This causes me to believe that after the first beast ascends to power over the world, he leaves a spot of leadership open (from which he just vacated to take power over the earth) and the second beast takes his former position.

interesting, I never heard the theory before about Egypt being an extension of Nimrod's kingdom.

One of the interesting points of history is that Mesopotamian and egyptian culture, according to history, began and developed independantly of each other. Yet there is significant evidence that this is not the case (which is ignored by the academic establishment).

You should compare the 2nd beast, and his relationship with the first beast, to the "king who does according to his will" from Daniel 11:36, and his relationship with his "foreign god".

 

[Rhamiel]

Greenie I see the Beast as a nation and the harlot as an economic system

T2BC
you referanced Nimrod and his One World Kingdom, I have read a lot of stuff from protestants about Nimrod but very very very little of it can be backed up with the Bible.
Also, sadly, a lot of stuff about Nimrod seems to be anti-catholic, not trying to derail your thread Greenie, just trying to understand

 

[Time2BCounted]

Greenie I see the Beast as a nation and the harlot as an economic system

T2BC
you referanced Nimrod and his One World Kingdom, I have read a lot of stuff from protestants about Nimrod but very very very little of it can be backed up with the Bible.
Also, sadly, a lot of stuff about Nimrod seems to be anti-catholic, not trying to derail your thread Greenie, just trying to understand

Im not anticatholic my friend. Not in the least. Granted there is little about nimrod in the canon of scripture, but there is a lot of ancient hebrew writing that does elaborate on him, such as the book of enoch.

Imho, he was the first antichrist ruler.

The reason he would apply to rev 13, is that the beast with 7 heads is the system or world rule, each head being a person or kingdom that ruled the world in its persepective day. At the time of Nimrod's rule, he ruled the known world, but when God confused their language He also scattered them across the face of the earth

 

[Rhamiel]

cool thanks, I was not accusing you of being anti-catholic I was just pointing out that I never hear Cathlics speak of Nimrod, it is kind of interesting how even though we both love the Bible, Catholics and Protestants focus on differant parts

 

[Simon_Templar]

Rhamiel and T2B,

There is alot of anti-Catholic stuff based on Nimrod and Semiramis. Most of it finds its origin in the book "The Two Babylons" by Hislop.

The premise of the book is basically that The Roman Catholic Church is a continuation of Nimrod's babylon. The theories from the book are fairly popular among baptist circles and other evangelicals. As is often the case, the fact that Hislop's assertions are often repeated has resulted in alot of evangelicals taking them as gospel.

Hislop based his assertions on a compilation of elements from mesopotamian history. The problem is he took all sorts of things out of context and just lumped them together to form a picture he liked. Another great problem with Hislop's line of thinking, and the subsequent attacks on the RCC by evangelicals is that the very same arguments that Hislop uses to attack the Catholic veneration of Mary, also attack the divinity, death and resurrection of Christ.

Hislop takes several historical, and legendary characters and lumps them all together in an effort to reconstruct a detailed account of Nimrod and his supposed wife Semiramis. His composite is based partially off of an ancient greek historian who in turn based his stories off of assumptions we now know to be incorrect and compositing several legendary figures.

Most of the really sketchy parts center around the character of Semiramis, which of course is key to Hislop's arguments.

The character of Semiramis is actually based off at least two, possibly three different assyrian queens who were real rulers that became somewhat legendary. One of these characters appears in her own lifetime to have identified herself with the babylonian goddess Innana/Ishtar.

This legendary composite character that named semiramis was linked in one legend to the also legendary King Ninus. Ninus is a possible alternate name for Nimrod.

From those two connections Hislop argues that the bablyonian myth of Inanna/Ishtar and Tammuz is actually a story about Nimrod and Semiramis and their son Tammuz.

He builds in other aspects of Mesopotamian history as well, such as the early tradition of royal sacrifice (in which a proxy king was sacrificed by mesopotamian cities once a year) to construct an elaborate detailed story of Nimrod and Semiramis constructing a religion which would later become Roman Catholicism.

He argues that Nimrod and Semiramis declared themselves and their sacred son Tammuz to be divine, and then Semiramis betrays with the priests and arranges the "king sacrifice" in which Nimrod is sacrificed. Semiramis then elevates herself as a "virgin mother" and marries her son Tammuz, from which the story of Ishtar and Tammuz is born.
this is portrayed as the original source for the Catholic veneration of Mary etc etc.

The problem is that while there are elements of fact here and there, its basically all just a big random cobbling together of mostly unrelated bits and pieces of different legends and historical characters.

The actual study of the mythology involves is really quite interesting though. That is also where you find out why this theory attacks Jesus as much as it does Mary and the Catholics.
Tammuz in babylonian mythology was the shephard god who died every winter, and was resurrected every spring. Thus if Semiramis is the basis of Mary, then the obvious conclusion is that Tammuz is the basis of Jesus and the most important details about him.

This is actually one of the main sources for attacks on easter as well. It is alledged that the easter holiday is really a celebration of Ishtar and Tammuz. For the most part that is accurate.

however, what these types of views don't consider is that virtually every culture had the same idea. In Egypt Tammuz is paralleled by Horus, in Phonecian and Greek, by Adonis. Roman of course is copied from Greek. In northern europe, this character is probably paralleled by Balder among the Norse, and by Lugh among the Celts.

Likewise, Ishtar has a parallel in pretty much every one as well.

pretty much every culture celebrated a new birth/resurrection holiday in the spring.

This is not evidence that Christianity is borrowed or stolen, as many alledge.. quite the contrary. It is evidence of the truth of Christianity and in the ancient world it was one of the most powerful truths in converting the pagan peoples.

The fact is that God build the message of the gospel into nature itself. The fact that the earth every year portrays the cycle of death and resurrection, of new birth from a state of death.
That image is so profound in nature, in our very existence that almost every culture on earth had some variation of a legend about it. Thus when the Gospel was sent out, many times people found that it was simply the confirmation of what they already expected and believed.

What they had seen in legend, had come true in fact. C.S. Lewis recognized this fact as one of the most powerful things about Christianity.. it was the universal myth, that became a historical fact. It is the myth that is true.

 

[Rhamiel]

I have read through The Two Babylons, interesting stuff filled with pictures too, like how the mitre is for Dagon the fish god and all kind of crazy stuff, really bad history though, a lot of his claims are without any type of citation

 

[Time2BCounted]

GReat posts
Simon i enjoyed that brother, God bless.

Have you considered the 7th head to come much?

I associate this with Mystery babylon who corrupts the world and seduces it with the abundance of her delicacies... which is exactly the course taken by the usa imho, and when we cant buy our adversaries we overthrow them.

I was actually kind of surprised that you were aware of state department publication 7277 and the fact that kennedy wrote it and that it became government agenda in 1961.

When you consider the 3 phase plan to disarm the world and gain power over it through the un, you read the various stages and general outline of the plan, and then place it side by side with history, it becomes apparent where we are going. Imho, this makes us an empire which ruiles the world., and i believe the prophecy will come to pass too, that the nations of the wolrld hate us and will destroy us in the end.

Your take is a very good one, and i appreciate it, and agree with a lot of it, but i am curious as to your take on the usa as an empire?

 

[Simon_Templar]

GReat posts
Simon i enjoyed that brother, God bless.

Have you considered the 7th head to come much?

I associate this with Mystery babylon who corrupts the world and seduces it with the abundance of her delicacies... which is exactly the course taken by the usa imho, and when we cant buy our adversaries we overthrow them.

I was actually kind of surprised that you were aware of state department publication 7277 and the fact that kennedy wrote it and that it became government agenda in 1961.

When you consider the 3 phase plan to disarm the world and gain power over it through the un, you read the various stages and general outline of the plan, and then place it side by side with history, it becomes apparent where we are going. Imho, this makes us an empire which ruiles the world., and i believe the prophecy will come to pass too, that the nations of the wolrld hate us and will destroy us in the end.

Your take is a very good one, and i appreciate it, and agree with a lot of it, but i am curious as to your take on the usa as an empire?

I think a case can be made that the USA is an empire.. certainly we are a world power, and we do dictate terms and policies sometimes.

However, I think the intent behind things like 7277 is not to establish the US as an empire, but ultimately to over throw the sovereignty of the US in favor of a multi-national sovereignty.
Globalism has been a strong trend in american politicial science since Woodrow Wilson at least and thus many Americans have been instramental in founding the UN, putting out ideas like 7277. However, they are not doing it to further the power of the US.. but to diminish the power of nation states altogether.

I think the US is actually a great barrier to the establishment of the globalist dream and that is one reason the revisionist view of history has been so agaisnt the US and western civilization in general. They need to divorce us from our heretige, and over throw ideas like patriotism, nationalism etc, if they are ever to accomplish their dream of a global utopian government, which will of course provide world peace and a new golden age of man <-- note sarcasm.

One of the truly amazing things, almost ironic about all this is that this idea is the culmination of almost every anti-christian trend of the last two centuries. Communism, New Age (occultism/spiritism), Secular humanism, Nazism, Social Darwinism, all of them culminate in the attempt to produce a progressive utopian world in which national governments are superceded by a global government that rules benevolently for the good of all mankind.

This kind of thing gives rise to conspiracy theories the size and scope of which are unbelievable to most people. However conspiracies are not necessary in the traditional sense to accomplish this, though there are undoubtedly conspiracies involved.
This seeming conspiracy is simply created by the fact that the whole world is under the sway of the evil one, he ultimately controls the philosophies and the ideas that rule the city of man, and so, those who believe those philosophies and those ideas, always end up headed towards the same goal. Whether they even realize it or not.

I personally believe that the 7th head either was Nazi Germany, because they tried to destroy the Jews, which is a characteristic of all of the "beast" kingdoms.
OR, Nazi germany was Just a type, and the 7th kingdom will be a multi-national coalition government which produces the beast.

Rev. 17 says that the beast himself is an eigth King, indicating that he comes after the 7th. However, the scriptures tell us that the ten horns represent ten kings who are given power for one hour (a short time) and they in turn give their power to the beast. They could be the 7th Kingdom.

I believe that the beast will be directly connected with Rome. In Rev. 17 it seems to identify the beast as the city of Rome, a city which sits on seven hills, and which rules over the kings of the earth.
It is often argued that Rome no longer rules.. however, that chapter is written in context to John's time, thus I think it has to be taken as the city that rules in John's time. If the chapter is not put in context of John's time, then the passage relating to the seven kings, five have fallen, one is, and one is yet to come, would have little meaning.

This has tempted many protestants to argue that the beast is the pope, and the harlot is the Catholic church.

I tend to disagree, though I did believe that at one point.

I beleive that the woman represents a world false religious system which has not yet fully come about, but is on the horizon.
The globalists have already been working on this issue and have already proposed to the UN that an official world religion be adopted by the UN. The religion that they proposed is basically a new agey humanist concoction.
The same group that proposed this, a few years back, presented the UN with the "Ark of Hope" in a big ceremony. The Ark of Hope is supposed to symbolize mankind's hope for the future, wold peace, all that stuff. In it was a document known as "the Earth Charter". The earth charter, much like 7277 is supposed to outline a plan for a peaceful global society in the 21st century.

The whole thing is a blatant rip off (some would say mockary) of the Ark of the Covenant, and the tablets of the Law placed in the Ark of the Covenant.

Here is a link to the Ark of Hope web page
http://www.arkofhope.org/

Also contained in the Ark of Hope were the "Temenos Books". These books were compilations of prayers (some in the form of artworks) for the earth.

I think that this will form the basis of an attempt at a one world religion which will continue its mimicry/mockery of Christianity by placing its seat in Rome.

The beast will be an integral part of creating and establishing this system, but before long he will supplant it himself by declaring himself to be God.
I think he will probably rise out of europe and will have a link to the royal families of europe.
Through his royal bloodline, he will claim to be descended from Jesus Christ through the series of legends made popular by the DaVinci Code (they have been around much much longer).

Specifically he will, I would guess, be related to the Hapsburgh family and through them claim descent from the Merovingian dynasty.

I don't think that the dreamed of global government will ever truly be accomplished. I think the nations of the earth will temporarily be in awe of the beast, and unable to oppose him, but they will never completely be under his control, and at the end, many of them will rise up against him and try to destroy him (which leads to the battle of Armageddon)