The Antimasonic Propaganda Machine

O.F.F. · May 14, 2005

1. Masons vow to show favoritism in hiring practices, which is against the law according to the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission.

Wayne said:
So what will you say to the same practice when it is Christian preferment?

I would say again that it is illegal. Favoritism is wrong and sinful no matter who is practicing it. Furthermore, it is forbidden in Scripture:

James 2:1

My brothers, as believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ, don't show favoritism.

2. Masons vow to support other Masons' causes, even if they are right or wrong.

Wayne said:
Well, you seem to read the oath differently. All I saw was a promise to come to the rescue if you saw him in trouble. The wording was,

I will assist a Companion Royal Arch Mason when I see him engaged in any difficulty, and will espouse his cause so far as to extricate him from the same, whether he be right or wrong.

Click to expand...

You can filter out what you don't choose to accept all you want, but the phrase "whether he be right or wrong" is there whether you see it or not and means exactly what it says!

3. Masons vow to keep the secrets of fellow Masons without exception, which means even if he murdered someone they would help conceal his crime of homicide.

Wayne said:
. . .it really is a bizzarre bit of logic to immediately jump to a worst case scenario . . .

One doesn't have to be a college English major to know that WITHOUT EXCEPTION means just that, and includes any and ALL scenarios, even the worst ones anyone can imagine. In other words, there is no exception to "without exception."

Wayne said:
You have just moved from making a statement about Masons, to making a challenge concerning what God approves of in Christians!

. . .

The strange thing is that you criticize Masons for implementing Christian principles. The Christian standard is "Let us do good unto all people, especially those of the household of faith." (Gal. 6:10)

My, my, Rev. your Masonic stubbornness is showing, but it doesn't seem to be any different than what you've been demonstrating all along. I say again, Masons have made a commitment to sin against God, if necessary, to aid, guard and protect fellow Masons and their families; and God does not approve of anyone's commitment to sin for any reason, under any circumstances!

Why don't you pull together an unbiased panel of non-Masonic pastors from a variety of Christian denominations and encourage them to come here and support your claims. After all, as fellow Christian pastors, shouldn't they be willing and able to agree with you from a biblical perspective? Maybe there is a "pastor's forum" here at CF from where you might find a few willing to join our discussion.

Meanwhile, we won't hold our breath, since you can't gain such a concensus here or anywhere else, because most Christian denominations have offiicial position statements against the teachings of Freemasonry and forbid its members to join a Masonic Lodge. You are among the compromising few pastors who support, defend and participate in the religious cult called Freemasonry.

cwebber · May 14, 2005

I would say again that it is illegal. Favoritism is wrong and sinful no matter who is practicing it. Furthermore, it is forbidden in Scripture:

I will remember that Mike when I read were Paul tells use to help other more expecially our Christian Brothers. Show me were Scripture tells us that we are not to help our fellow Christian over others.

We are told to first take care of our Family before trying to take care of another that is Scripture.

James is talking about placing someone more important so that you can show off that you have someone important in your church on the front row and leaving the poor folk in the back. This verse has nothing to do with hiring someone because they are a friend and you wish to help them.

Again Mike you forget what Freemasonry teaches. That your duty to God comes first so your first duty is to help your Christian Brother to find a Job it is not favortism. It is call following the example Jesus laid down for usd remember Jesus said when you feed them you feed me when you clothed tem you clothed me.

You should be ashamed of yourself and ask God for forgiveness for twisting Scripture.

ChristianJobs

is a full-featured employment website focusing on employment within the Christian community. We have designed our service to be valuable both to our members and visitors, as well as to be competitive with anything else on the Christian or secular market. Our mission is to provide a quality service catering to the hiring needs of Christian-friendly companies and organizations while enabling job seekers to plug into that community.

Mike are these People wrong they show favortism by only helping those in the Christian Community to find Jobs?

Rev Wayne · May 14, 2005

You can filter out what you don't choose to accept all you want, but the phrase "whether he be right or wrong" is there whether you see it or not and means exactly what it says!

And you can filter out my entire comments on the matter if you wish also, but you will not hide the fact that I interpret that to mean an immediate difficulty, and the pledge is, I will help my brother and play the blame game later. Read my comment next time and you'll see I mean exactly what I say also, no matter how you choose to skew it or ignore it.

One doesn't have to be a college English major to know that WITHOUT EXCEPTION means just that, and includes any and ALL scenarios, even the worst ones anyone can imagine. In other words, there is no exception to "without exception."

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, O.F.F.--quote me honestly or don't quote me at all. I clearly pointed out to you that Masonry does indeed make exceptions:

In similar arguments, I have seen statements posted in response, from Masonic laws that exempt unlawful behavior from the oath, particularly more heinous offenses.

You know it's true, too, or you wouldh't have clip-quoted around the remark and intentionally bypassed it.

Why don't you pull together an unbiased panel of non-Masonic pastors from a variety of Christian denominations and encourage them to come here and support your claims. After all, as fellow Christian pastors, shouldn't they be willing and able to agree with you from a biblical perspective? After all, as fellow Christian pastors, shouldn't they be willing and able to agree with you from a biblical perspective?
Meanwhile, we won't hold our breath, since you can't gain such a concensus here or anywhere else, because most Christian denominations have offiicial position statements against the teachings of Freemasonry and forbid its members to join a Masonic Lodge. You are among the compromising few pastors who support, defend and participate in the religious cult called Freemasonry.

I have an even more interesting challenge for you:

Show me anywhere in your remarks in response, compared with my remarks on the matter of Galatians 6:10, and explain how anything you said has any relevance to what I said. Because as it stands, all I can do is a point-by-point explication of why your return comments fail to connect with a single point I made:

Why don't you pull together an unbiased panel of non-Masonic pastors from a variety of Christian denominations and encourage them to come here and support your claims.

My "claim" is that the Masons' emphasis on charity and "doing good to others" is directly comparable to the Christian practice, because Paul says we are to give as Christians to take care of our own first. Masons do exactly the same, they take care of their own first.

After all, as fellow Christian pastors, shouldn't they be willing and able to agree with you from a biblical perspective?

Freemasons are not mentioned in the Bible; how in the heck am I supposed to get anybody, pastor or not, to agree, from a biblical perspective, that Masons give according to the same Christian principle of giving to take care of your own first?

After all, as fellow Christian pastors, shouldn't they be willing and able to agree with you from a biblical perspective?

Maybe so, but it still won't solve the enigma you have presented me with, of finding a biblical perspective for whether or not Masons give according to the same principle of Christian giving expressed in Galatians 6:10.

Meanwhile, we won't hold our breath, since you can't gain such a concensus here or anywhere else,

Yes, I've just expressed agreement with that statement with my last two comments. You won't get any argument from me there.

because most Christian denominations have offiicial position statements against the teachings of Freemasonry and forbid its members to join a Masonic Lodge.

Once again, what relevance does that have to my point? I made no statement about what any pastor or church or denomination says or does or feels or declares about Freemasonry. I clearly said, Masons give according to the same principle of Christian giving that we find expressed in Galatians 6:10.

You are among the compromising few pastors who support, defend and participate in the religious cult called Freemasonry.

1. I haven't compromised anything. I am still the same born-again, blood-bought, Bible-believing, God-fearing, Jesus-loving, Holy Spirit-filled servant of the One True and Living God that I always was.

2. Freemasonry is not a cult. Masons are encouraged to be involved in their church, which is directly counter to what a cult would do. The first move they would make is to try to cut you off from any relationship of trust that you might have, first with your church or faith group, then with your friends, and eventually, with your family. Masonry does the opposite and tells you to be involved in your church and your community, and flatly insists that if you have situations in which there comes a choice involving conflicting schedules between the Lodge and family, your family always comes first. This is one Masonic principle that I have been told about and reminded about enough times to see that it is a principle as consistent as "three knocks from without, answered by three from within."

Rev Wayne · May 14, 2005

Again Mike you forget what Freemasonry teaches. That your duty to God comes first so your first duty is to help your Christian Brother to find a Job it is not favortism.

Don't sweat it, Webber, is it any surprise that Mike would choose the theology of the Civil Religion of our culture before he would choose the Bible and what it says?

O.F.F. · May 14, 2005

Wayne said:
Masonry does the opposite and tells you to be involved in your church and your community, and flatly insists that if you have situations in which there comes a choice involving conflicting schedules between the Lodge and family, your family always comes first.

Then let me ask you this Rev. recently our ministry received two emails, just this week, from Christian wives who have concerns about their husbands considering the idea of joining a Masonic Lodge.

Both express similar spiritual concerns expressed by saints opposed to the heretical teachings of Freemasonry. As a pastor, what advice would you give them and their husbands? Given the conflicting views about Freemasonry between these husbands and their wives, should they not join in order to maintain peace and harmony in their marriages, or should they join a Lodge despite how their wives feel about it?

Rev Wayne · May 14, 2005

O.F.F. said:
Then let me ask you this Rev. recently our ministry received two emails, just this week, from Christian wives who have concerns about their husbands considering the idea of joining a Masonic Lodge.

Both express similar spiritual concerns expressed by saints opposed to the heretical teachings of Freemasonry. As a pastor, what advice would you give them and their husbands? Given the conflicting views about Freemasonry between these husbands and their wives, should they not join in order to maintain peace and harmony in their marriages, or should they join a Lodge despite how their wives feel about it?

That's easy, Mike, I'm surprised you didn't already catch it in my answer:

if you have situations in which there comes a choice involving conflicting schedules between the Lodge and family, your family always comes first.

Therefore, if either of them has reservations, I'd advise not to go forward with it, as it may be detrimental to the marriage.

When I prepared to join, that was one key element in the process, telling my wife. Had she expressed reservations about it at all, I would not have joined. After moving last year, and taking a period of time to settle in before getting active in a Lodge, I began attending one nearby that meets on Monday nights. But after attending one meeting, the next month our kids' elementary school held their skate night on that particular Monday, so I did not attend and went skating instead. By the time the next month rolled around, a couple in my church had finally managed to get me to attend a practice with a singing group they are in, and I joined. This group meets on Monday nights, so that made for another choice. So I chose for the singers, but checked into things later and found out there is another lodge an equal distance from where I live, in the opposite direction. They meet on Tuesdays, so the situation got resolved in a way that was satisfactory all the way around.

It gave a feeling for some time of being somewhat disconnected, but I have not regretted making these choices as I did.

There are times when I must opt the same way in regards to the church. You see, it doesn't really matter which organization it is that you wed yourself to, you do so to the detriment of family.

cwebber · May 15, 2005

Both express similar spiritual concerns expressed by saints opposed to the heretical teachings of Freemasonry. As a pastor, what advice would you give them and their husbands? Given the conflicting views about Freemasonry between these husbands and their wives, should they not join in order to maintain peace and harmony in their marriages, or should they join a Lodge despite how their wives feel about it

Mike as in all things the Men should let there wives research Freemasonry with me. Make sure the Lodge they are joining is not Clandestian. To listen to those who oppose and promote Freemasonry put both against Scripture and see if it adds up.

My personal journey is my Papaw and His sons (which was not my Father). My papaw and one of His sons were Preachers and a Pastor at one time or another. Just because they were Preachers did not make me think Freemaosnry is ok. So I studied for myself for 2yrs before petitioning a Lodge. In my stidies I found the following.

The Masons I meet were Church going kind hearted good Christian Men (Thou a few were not perfect). These men had taken time to feed the poor, care and visit the sick and provide shoes, presents, food and school supplies for the poor kids at a local elementry School.

Now while search online forums I found that some Mason were not Christian some were dietist and so one thou Majority still remained Christian. They still no matter there religion were kind in most part sometimes debates got heated. My Masonic Christian Brothers agreed with me on alot of issue and would offer words of encouragement to me while I was witnessing the gospel of Jesus Christ to others.

Now I also ran into my fellow Christians who were not pro Masonic. And this is what I seemed to run into with all but one that being W.D. Rice. What I heard from my "Christian Anti-Masonic" Brothers was that my Salvation was fake, that I was Stupid, Ignorant and Spiritially Blind. I was told that Christians who are MAsons will burn in Hell. Which clearly goes against Biblical Doctrine. And people were taking Biblical Verses out of context along with Masonic Writtings by only posting a sentence ot two so that it would sound bad.

So I chose the side that was more Biblical in doctorine that being the Pro Masonic side, because the Anti-Masonic side was twisting Scripture and not sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ to others except maybe once a year.

Listen

O.F.F. · May 15, 2005

Rev Wayne said:
That's easy, Mike, I'm surprised you didn't already catch it in my answer:

Therefore, if either of them has reservations, I'd advise not to go forward with it, as it may be detrimental to the marriage.

When I prepared to join, that was one key element in the process, telling my wife. Had she expressed reservations about it at all, I would not have joined. After moving last year, and taking a period of time to settle in before getting active in a Lodge, I began attending one nearby that meets on Monday nights. But after attending one meeting, the next month our kids' elementary school held their skate night on that particular Monday, so I did not attend and went skating instead. By the time the next month rolled around, a couple in my church had finally managed to get me to attend a practice with a singing group they are in, and I joined. This group meets on Monday nights, so that made for another choice. So I chose for the singers, but checked into things later and found out there is another lodge an equal distance from where I live, in the opposite direction. They meet on Tuesdays, so the situation got resolved in a way that was satisfactory all the way around.

It gave a feeling for some time of being somewhat disconnected, but I have not regretted making these choices as I did.

There are times when I must opt the same way in regards to the church. You see, it doesn't really matter which organization it is that you wed yourself to, you do so to the detriment of family.

Great answer Rev. Wayne, that would be good advise; and it appears you seem to have your priorities in order. Personally, I wish you would have made the same priority when it came to your decision to join the Lodge.

Knowing that the majority of denominations (the family and Body of Christ) oppose Freemasonry on Christian grounds, it would seem to me that you would avoid it if -- for no other reason -- then to prevent those who could potentially stumble into the darker, occultic, esoteric, hermetic side of Freemasonry because they initially thought it was okay since a pastor is in it. But also in order to stand in harmony with the majority of the Body of Christ as a Christian leader and pastor, even if you personally see nothing wrong with it, and your denomination has no official position in favor of, or against, Freemasonry.

I Corinthians 8

9 But you must be careful with this freedom of yours. Do not cause a brother or sister with a weaker conscience to stumble.

By the same token, as a pastor you know by God's Word that the use of alcohol is not forbidden in Scripture, but the abuse of it is. Some saints are sensitive to this to a point that they avoid alcohol entirely. Others avoid it for the same reason, or because it may have been a stronghold for them before they came to Christ. Therefore, stronger saints who may know their limits and can handle consuming it, should avoid it out of respect for those that are weaker. In principle, that's all I am trying to say about your involvement, as a pastor, in Freemasonry.

This is what I've been trying to say all along, it's just that the Lord has finally brought me to a point to approach this mission field much softer than I have in the past. I still have some growing to do, but I'm convinced that I must approach it in "love" or I shouldn't be in it at all.

O.F.F. · May 15, 2005

cwebber said:
Now I also ran into my fellow Christians who were not pro Masonic. And this is what I seemed to run into with all but one that being W.D. Rice. What I heard from my "Christian Anti-Masonic" Brothers was that my Salvation was fake, that I was Stupid, Ignorant and Spiritially Blind.

Corey,

You know that WD is the vice president of O.F.F., therefore he and I share in senior leadership of our ministry. Can you honestly say that I ever said your salvation was fake? I do believe that Masons who profess to be Christian and know the truth of God's Word are spiritually blinded by the deceptions of Freemasonry. And, I also believe that those Masons who do not know God's Word are either "said" Christians or they are ignorant of the truth of God's Word, but I have never said your faith is fake.

In fact, the Lord has impressed upon my heart very recently, that I have no right to judge another man's faith in Christ. However, a man's words and actions I do have a right to judge; because as James says, ones words and actions validate ones faith.

While I am at it, let me go on public record with an apology to Wayne. While it may appear to me that ones gradual degree of compromise gives me the impression of apostasy, I have no right to say that either. Only God has the authority to judge whether someone is in the faith, or whether they've drifted from it. Recently I have read some of Wayne's posts here at CF on threads unrelated to Freemasonry, and he seems to be very sound in Christian doctrine. But, I find it a stumbling block for saints to justify Freemasonry because of a pastor's involvement knowing that its teachings are not biblically sound.

There are too many "red flags" in Freemasonry that should serve as warnings to "Christian" Masons. If they don't want to acknowledge it and come out from among them, that's between them and God. In the meantime, I must remain steadfast to my calling to warn the Body of Christ of the heretical teachings of Freemasonry and open my arms to receive those who come out of the Lodge who have heeded the warning, whether it came from our ministry or another source.

Rev Wayne · May 15, 2005

I have never compromised my Christian faith for any matter concerning the Lodge. Which is one reason you can make the affirmation you do about my posts being sound in Christian doctrine, as long as the subject isn't Freemasonry.

As I have witnessed many times, if God was not in it, I would not be either, and I told Him so. The main reason I told Him that was, I knew it was exactly where He wanted me to be, and I had heard all the rumors. Only after receiving His assurance did I join the Lodge, and even then double-checking and receiving every re-assurance, so as to leave no question or doubt in my mind--because even Masons had cautioned me not to join if there was the least hesitation.

But finding out so many Christians who had been influential in my faith, had been Masons also, was certainly a key factor. As was also, the discovery that so many key persons in the history of our country, and so many presidents, were Masons. If it were only one or if the list were shorter or spoke of less prominent men, it would be different. But it makes a huge difference to know that the men who founded our country on such strong Christian principles were not only Christians, but were also Masons. Especially men as eminent as George Washington.

And no one yet has answered the challenge I've offered numerous times: Since, as Jesus said, the good tree cannot put forth bad fruit, show me the pattern of evil deeds that would necessarily have to have followed these men. Show me a pattern of Freemasonry leading men to lives of evil. It is not there.

cwebber · May 15, 2005

You know that WD is the vice president of O.F.F., therefore he and I share in senior leadership of our ministry. Can you honestly say that I ever said your salvation was fake? I do believe that Masons who profess to be Christian and know the truth of God's Word are spiritually blinded by the deceptions of Freemasonry. And, I also believe that those Masons who do not know God's Word are either "said" Christians or they are ignorant of the truth of God's Word, but I have never said your faith is fake.

Mike you have stood with those who procliam this False Doctorine that Christian will burn in Hell. Thou you have never said my belief in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior is Fake you have said it is questionable.

In fact, the Lord has impressed upon my heart very recently, that I have no right to judge another man's faith in Christ. However, a man's words and actions I do have a right to judge; because as James says, ones words and actions validate ones faith.

Yes as James says Faith without Works is dead, I and my fellow Christians Brothers who are Masons on this very day just stood on the road for 5 hours collecting money so that Childern can receive Free Medical care for plastic surgery, Prostectics, Surgery Burn threatments and free medical equipment. All because we want for God's sake to help childern Freemasonry is one of God,s tools to do so I believe.

Many other Brothers goto Hospitals and visit as clowns to the sick childern to make them laugh and smile again. Because a uplifted Spirit will heal faster than a down troddin one.

And by the way it is not so much the size of the gift that matters it is the condition of the givers Heart. We are not there to glorify Freemaosnry we are there in the Service of God, Love your neighbor as you love yourself, We are there to help Others.

But, I find it a stumbling block for saints to justify Freemasonry because of a pastor's involvement knowing that its teachings are not biblically sound.

But Mike that is your belief you simple are reading Scripture and Freemasonry wrong, On sevral accounts I have seen you use the same old line:

Masons vow to show favoritism in hiring practices, which is against the law according to the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission.

This as before is refuted by the first command that more nobel Duty you owe to God, Which would over rule you being asked not swone to hire a Mason.

Pual tells use to talk care of our Fellow Christians first because a week house will fall, Why would anyone want to become a Christian if they do not help each other and take care of there family.

I have also heard you state that if you are praying and because Freemaosnry is not a religion and does not require any certain religion and someone else is praying in your presents you are allowing another god before Jesus.

If you read Scripture exspecially Paul it would clear it up for you on many occasions Play prayed to the one true God in the mist of pagans, Remember the woman who was a devil who followed Paul around. He contuinal prayed to God even with her in his presents. It not the person around us who is praying to a false god that breaks the first commandment. It would be us who if we prayed to this false god that would be breaking that commandment. But I have not nor will I pray to another god but JEsus Christ, YHWH.

YHWH has many different names and He shares his name thou we may not like it with many other gods examples:

God English spekaing Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Diest and Christians
Lord, Father, Creator
Allah Arabic speaking Jews, Muslims and Christians
Gott German speaking Jews, Muslims and Christians
Great Spirit Native Americain Christians
ShangDi in China

So many differnt names can be used for God and false gods, It is the Christian who walks among the unbelievers who can show them how to have a relationship with God thou His Son Jesus Christ.

Think about you go up to a Muslim you tell Him he is worshipping the false god of Abraham YHWH whom they call Allah. What do you think his responce is going to be? He will not be happy. But if you approach him with we worship the same God the God of Abraham YHWH, You can meet on common ground and be able to establish something to work from there. Than you can build on thatto show them how to have a personall instead of distant relationship with God thru His son Jesus Christ. It is just like Paul did with the Altar to the no name god, First he established a common ground on which they could meet than shared Chrit with them from there.

There are too many "red flags" in Freemasonry that should serve as warnings to "Christian" Masons. If they don't want to acknowledge it and come out from among them, that's between them and God. In the meantime, I must remain steadfast to my calling to warn the Body of Christ of the heretical teachings of Freemasonry and open my arms to receive those who come out of the Lodge who have heeded the warning, whether it came from our ministry or another source.

You know my Pastor seen some red flags when asking me about Freemasonry and I agreed there are some red flags. The Red Flag was that Masons were helping people out and the Church was not doing its Job in the same aspect. You see He seen that the problem lied with the Church not Freemasonry if the Church was doing its job correctly than there would really be no need for Freemasonys Widows and orphans funds.

And you must base your heretical teachings on Scriptual and use the FULL CONTEXT when doing so that is were a lot of issue lies is that you will not post something in FULL CONTEXT. You have used the same approch with Scripture when you quoted James ealry. James was refering to giving people special previllage to boost your or your churches ego, The help of a Christian Brother or Mason Brother is not for bosting or bragging rights it is for the benfit of your fellow man of helping him out.

So all I ask if if you are going to bring soemthing against us use the FULL CONTEXT of it not just a sentence or two out of a paragraph Please.

O.F.F. · May 15, 2005

Wayne said:
And no one yet has answered the challenge I've offered numerous times: Since, as Jesus said, the good tree cannot put forth bad fruit, show me the pattern of evil deeds

No need for us to get into it, we've done so many times. We'll just have to agree to disagree. It's not necessarily the pattern of evil deeds from Masons, but from my perspective as an Ex-Mason for Jesus, it's about the pattern of evil teachings that represent the evil fruit from Freemasonry as I see it. We've wasted enough time disagreeing on the issues, so let's move on our separate ways.

cwebber said:
YHWH has many different names and He shares his name thou we may not like it with many other gods

Corey, what you have stated is NOT biblical, but because you've determined your stance to defend and maintain member in Freemasonry, I don't want to argue the issue with you. Bottom-line, it's not the name so much as the content and meaning of His name that is poured into it that matters most.

In other words, the Arabic Christian meaning of "Allah" is not the same as the Arabic Muslim's meaning of "Allah" and I wish Wayne would be the Christian pastor he shows on other threads long enough to honestly explain that to you; because you have not been willing to listen to me, WD or any other Christian's advise on the matter. Maybe, since he is a "Christian" Mason, he can educate you on this fact, but I will simply agree to disagree with you on this subject.

Rev Wayne · May 16, 2005

No need for us to get into it, we've done so many times. We'll just have to agree to disagree. It's not necessarily the pattern of evil deeds from Masons, but from my perspective as an Ex-Mason for Jesus, it's about the pattern of evil teachings that represent the evil fruit from Freemasonry as I see it.

Well, if you wish to avoid an answer, then avoid an answer, I've never gotten one yet, so it's no surprise. But don't pretend that you have successfully responded by equating "evil teachings" with "evil fruit." For one thing, you have never successfully shown "evil teachings," for another, teachings and fruit cannot be equated anyway. "Teachings" would be more analagous to the tree, thus to see evil fruit, we must see evil actions. No one has shown such a pattern at all, in fact, quite the opposite.

In other words, the Arabic Christian meaning of "Allah" is not the same as the Arabic Muslim's meaning of "Allah" and I wish Wayne would be the Christian pastor he shows on other threads long enough to honestly explain that to you; because you have not been willing to listen to me, WD or any other Christian's advise on the matter. Maybe, since he is a "Christian" Mason, he can educate you on this fact, but I will simply agree to disagree with you on this subject.

I don't know Arabic, and I hear conflicting opinions on the matter anyway. But the general consensus I have seen on the issue (from non-Masonic contexts) is that "allah" is just as Corey says, a name that is used by Arab Christians to denote simply "God," devoid of any necessary theological content than would be ascribed to it by the concept in general. Kind of like GAOTU--it is a generic term, but gets characterized as a "generic god."

We've wasted enough time disagreeing on the issues, so let's move on our separate ways.

Good idea, you first. I started this thread, remember? You wanna go a separate way, then quit posting here, nobody's forcing you.

O.F.F. · May 16, 2005

Rev Wayne said:
Well, if you wish to avoid an answer, then avoid an answer, I've never gotten one yet, so it's no surprise. But don't pretend that you have successfully responded by equating "evil teachings" with "evil fruit." For one thing, you have never successfully shown "evil teachings," for another, teachings and fruit cannot be equated anyway. "Teachings" would be more analagous to the tree, thus to see evil fruit, we must see evil actions.

You really underestimate the intelligence of the readers of this forum. I have not avoided your question, I've answered it then and I'll answer it again now. However, whether you agree or not that the "teachings" of Freemasonry are heretical the consensus among most Christian denominations and the entire evangelical world is that they are. Any intelligent, Bible reading Christian knows that false "teaching" is evil and it's the biggest warning in the New Testament. Likewise, God warns us about false teachers who contaminate the gospel for their own purposes.

So let's use your analogy, that the "teachings would be more analagous to the tree, thus to see evil fruit, we must see evil actions." Since teachings = the tree, and fruit = actions, and actions = verbs, here's how it goes.

The teachings that come from the tree of Freemasonry are heretical, the evil fruit or "actions" that are produced as a result are committed by those who believe, support, teach, and defend its falsehoods. Whether you agree or not it is an evil action (evil fruit) to believe, support, teach and defend false doctrine. This is the evil fruit of Freemasonry and the pattern has persisted since its inception.

Wayne said:
I don't know Arabic, and I hear conflicting opinions on the matter anyway. But the general consensus I have seen on the issue (from non-Masonic contexts) is that "allah" is just as Corey says, a name that is used by Arab Christians to denote simply "God," devoid of any necessary theological content than would be ascribed to it by the concept in general. Kind of like GAOTU--it is a generic term, but gets characterized as a "generic god."

Talk about avoidance, spoken like a true Mason, but we're not talking about the generic use of the term. You don't have to know Arabic to define the One True Living God of the Bible vs. the false deity of the Koran. Arabic Christians know the difference and so do you. When it comes to telling the truth about who God is, theological content ascribed to Him is necessary. But you won't admit it because to do so would destory your Masonic concept of god (GAOTU).

Wayne said:
Good idea, you first. I started this thread, remember? You wanna go a separate way, then quit posting here, nobody's forcing you.

You can respond antagonistically all you want Rev, that just makes you and your "cloth" look bad and very unChrist-like. But, you don't own this thread and if I see you, Corey or any other Mason come here and spread the false teachings of your religious cult, I will be here to correct you. I will not let Freemasonry poison the minds of the saints here at CF or anywhere else I find it trying to propagate its heresy.

cwebber · May 16, 2005

Corey, what you have stated is NOT biblical, but because you've determined your stance to defend and maintain member in Freemasonry, I don't want to argue the issue with you. Bottom-line, it's not the name so much as the content and meaning of His name that is poured into it that matters most.

Mike I have and can prove this to you Bibliclly

In other words, the Arabic Christian meaning of "Allah" is not the same as the Arabic Muslim's meaning of "Allah" and I wish Wayne would be the Christian pastor he shows on other threads long enough to honestly explain that to you; because you have not been willing to listen to me, WD or any other Christian's advise on the matter. Maybe, since he is a "Christian" Mason, he can educate you on this fact, but I will simply agree to disagree with you on this subject.

Both Muslim and Christian Arabic speeking words point to YHWH the God of Abraham. The Muslim is distant while the Christian is personal. That is the difference.

Mike read the Book of Acts, You will find a Roman Solder praying to God and not Jesus, God heard His prayers and sent someone to tell Him about Jesus.

It's like this Mike we can all say God and be refrering to the God of Abraham and be correct that He is God wether we are Muslim Jew or Christian. But in order to have a personal relationship with Him and to get to Heaven we must accept His Son.

Its like God's in a gated community with only one gate, Were Jesus stands at the door. We can pray and talk to God thru the gate and He will hear us. but the only way to enter into God,s House is thru the Gate and Thru Christ.

Rev Wayne · May 16, 2005

You really underestimate the intelligence of the readers of this forum. I have not avoided your question, I've answered it then and I'll answer it again now. However, whether you agree or not that the "teachings" of Freemasonry are heretical the consensus among most Christian denominations and the entire evangelical world is that they are. Any intelligent, Bible reading Christian knows that false "teaching" is evil and it's the biggest warning in the New Testament. Likewise, God warns us about false teachers who contaminate the gospel for their own purposes.

My comments are not addressed to the readers of this forum, they are addressed to you. As far as your assessment of what the denominations think, you seem to have forgotten that you do not speak for the entire evangelical world. United Methodists are one of the largest denominations in the world, and they have no statement against Freemasonry whatsoever. Southern Baptists are even larger, they are ambivalent at worst and certainly not anti-Freemasonry no matter how you slice it. In fact, isnt it ironic that the largest group you have in your corner are the Roman Catholics?

But what you neglect in your mention of your accusations of evil is that Scripture says evil men will wax worse and worse. Hence my challenge to you is to put your money where your mouth is, and show us the evidence where Scripture says we are to look for itin evil actions. John describes it for us even more clearly:

Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. (1 John 3:7-8)

In those words is the clearest statement about knowing the difference, and being able to tell if ones beliefs are producing the right or the wrong kind of fruit. If one is righteous, he/she will do righteous deeds; if one is evil, he will do evil deeds. He couldnt say it any plainer than that. And his warning indicates if you are making the determination otherwise, then you have been led astray. And as if he hadnt made it plain enough already, he recaps:

This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God, nor is anyone who does not love his brother. (3:10)

So I say it again, you have not proven a case of evil Masons until you have shown that what you refer to as evil teaching is bearing evil fruit in the evil deeds that result from it.

Talk about avoidance, spoken like a true Mason, but we're not talking about the generic use of the term.

Wake up and get a cup of coffe, Mike. The generic use of Allah to mean the same as the generic English equivalent, God, is all we have been talking about concerning the term.

You don't have to know Arabic to define the One True Living God of the Bible vs. the false deity of the Koran. Arabic Christians know the difference and so do you.

Nice hop, skip, and jump, but what you just said has nothing to do with the fact that Arab Christians use the term Allah as the equivalent of our English word God. And you are right, Arabic Christians know the difference and so do I, it is you who seem to be having the problem.

The teachings that come from the tree of Freemasonry are heretical, the evil fruit or "actions" that are produced as a result are committed by those who believe, support, teach, and defend its falsehoods. Whether you agree or not it is an evil action (evil fruit) to believe, support, teach and defend false doctrine. This is the evil fruit of Freemasonry and the pattern has persisted since its inception.

But the fact you neglect is, false doctrine will inevitably lead to false practice. Yet the consistently lacking area in your argument is the lack of evil Masons or patterns of evil activities to support your theory. A theory without evidence is a flawed theoryor a false one.

You can respond antagonistically all you want Rev, that just makes you and your "cloth" look bad and very unChrist-like.

You can take a straightforward, tell-it-like-it-is statement and falsely label it "antagonistic if you like, but it doesnt make it so. You said we would be better off if we went separate ways; I was simply letting you know that as the author of this thread, I was not going anyplace; hence, if you truly wanted to follow through on your comment about parting ways, you could be certain which one would be leaving. And it still stands, despite your false accusations of antagonism.

The challenge is yet unanswered. Masons are involved in their churches, in their communities, in their businesses, in every way they can make a difference, doing much good and not evil.

As Jesus said, either make the tree good and the fruit good, or make the tree evil and the fruit evil.

As James said, You cannot get both bitter and sweet water out of the same fountain.

That is why, as I have already said, its difficult if not impossible to cast such accusations of evil at some of the most outstanding Christians who were founders of this country, like George Washington and others, who also happened to have been Masons.

O.F.F. · May 16, 2005

Wayne said:
Yet the consistently lacking area in your argument is the lack of evil Masons or patterns of evil activities to support your theory.

You just don't get it, do you? So I'll say it again, the pattern of evil activity is that of teaching and defending false doctrine. That pattern has been consistent throughout the history of Freemasonry, and it continues to this day; even with you on this and many other like threads and discussion boards you've frequently visited.

By the way, your point about the UMC & the SBC duly noted. But let the readers beware that for the most part, in America, Freemasonry is the UMC & the SBC!

Rev Wayne · May 16, 2005

So our founding fathers did an evil thing in establishing this country?

Rev Wayne · May 16, 2005

And the fact is, you have not proven "false doctrine" at all. You have based every accusation on the false assumption that Freemasonry is a religion, which it clearly and decidedly is not, does not claim to be, and which no individual Mason treats as his "religion." So if you claim to have proved your case on the basis you have stated, it is a false claim that has not been established at all.

If antimasons have such an open-and-shut case against Freemasonry,

Then why are there so many lies put out by them on their websites?

O.F.F. · May 16, 2005

An overwhelming number of Christian denominations have condemned Freemasonry, including the Roman Catholic Church, the Methodist Church of England, the Wesleyan Methodist Church, the Russian Orthodox Church, the Synod Anglican Church of England, the Assemblies of God, the Church of the Nazarene, the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, the Reformed Presbyterian Church, the Christian Reformed Church in America, the Evangelical Mennonite Church, the Church of Scotland, the Free Church of Scotland, General Association of Regular Baptist Churches, Grace Brethren, Independent Fundamentalist Churches of America, The Evangelical Lutheran Synod, the Baptist Union of Scotland, The Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod, the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, and the Presbyterian Church in America. Also, many prominent Christians have denounced the Lodge, including D. L. Moody, Jonathan Blanchard, Charles Blanchard, Alva McClain, Walter Martin, and Charles Finney.

FREEMASONRY AND THE CHRISTIAN By Eddy D. Field II and III

If Freemasonry is such a "good" organization, then why does the vast majority of Christendom find it abhorrent to the fundamental teachings of the historic Christian faith?

The Antimasonic Propaganda Machine

An Ex-Mason for Jesus

cwebber

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An Ex-Mason for Jesus

An Ex-Mason for Jesus

Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity

cwebber

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An Ex-Mason for Jesus

Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity

An Ex-Mason for Jesus

cwebber

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Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity

An Ex-Mason for Jesus

Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity

Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity

An Ex-Mason for Jesus

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