The Antimasonic Propaganda Machine

Rev Wayne · May 10, 2005

From earlier on this forum:

1. Coil's Masonic Encyclopaedia, Page 512, states:

"(c) Belief; Creed; Tenet; Dogma. Does Freemasonry have creed (I believe) or tenet (he holds) or dogma (I think) to which all members must adhere? Does Freemasonry continually teach and insist upon a creed, tenet and dogma? Does it have meetings characterised by the practice of rites and ceremonies in and by which its creed, tenet and dogma are illustrated by myths, symbols and allegories? If Freemasonry were not religion, what would have to be done to make it such? Nothing would be necessary or at least nothing but to add more of the same. That brings us to the real crux of the matter; the difference between a lodge and a church is one of degree and not of kind. Some think that, because it is not a strong or highly dogmatised religion such as the Roman Catholic Church where it is difficult to tell whether the congregation is worshipping God, Christ, or the Virgin Mary, it can be no religion at all. But a church of Friends (Quakers) exhibits even less formality and ritual than does a Masonic lodge. The fact that Freemasonry is a mild religion does not mean that it is no religion."

Certainly an accurate quote, but a truncated one, and not all Coil has to say on the matter. No one can rightly take this to be a full statement of Coils position, when he continues a discourse on the subject of religion from page 511 to page 522. Just before he said this, for example:

There can be religion without the recitation of any liturgy; and the recitation of a formula does not necessarily induce religion. In short, there can be much religion which is neither a religion nor one of the religions.

In other words, he uses the same terms as Masons have used in the same discussion for some time now, and for which they have received much criticism. And he makes this definitive statement against the idea that Masonry is a religion:

Perhaps the strongest argument against Masonry as religion has never been asserted and that is the very important observation that the religious dogma of the Fraternity has not been consistent enough to identify it as a sect, but its announced adherences have repeatedly changed and may even now be changing. In English-speaking countries, it seems to adhere to the Old Testament dispensation; in Scandinavian countries it is officially Christian; in Islamic countries, it is Mohammedan; and in France and a few other jurisdictions, it is neutral, following more closely than any other country the doctrine of the premier Grand Lodge of 1717. (P. 513)

Coil also rightly recognizes Masonrys Christian roots, as we have consistently maintained here and elsewhere against strenuous oppositionironically, from Coil-quoting antimasons:

If the Masonic fraternity had any official religious belief prior to 1535, it was Roman Catholicism, for there was no other religion permitted in England. After the English Reformation of that year, it could have been only that of the established Church, commonly called the Anglican or Episcopalian. Persons of other faiths were called dissenters and were often persecuted. (p. 513)

So despite what antimasons on this forum have tried to suggest to us about Coils position on the matter:

Masonry may have religious content, but would not be accurately described as a religion, or one of the religions.
There is no consistency by which it may be described as a religion, being Christian in Christian countries, Muslim in Muslim countries, etc.
Its roots are thoroughly entrenched in Christianity.

But then, Coil is a Mason. Why would we expect him to express an opinion contrary to that expressed consistently by Masons on this thread?

Conversely, antimasons have been shown to be liars, mis-quoters, and mis-representers, when it comes to quoting from Masonic sources. Why should we have suspected they would do any differently with Coil?

That's not to say, of course, that the entire lot of them are guilty of lying. Most of them, or so it would seem, are merely guilty of swallowing without chewing. So, if it looks like a wolf, acts like a wolf, and eats like a wolf. . . . . .

mark53 · May 10, 2005

Rev Wayne said:
From earlier on this forum:

That's not to say, of course, that the entire lot of them are guilty of lying. Most of them, or so it would seem, are merely guilty of swallowing without chewing. So, if it looks like a wolf, acts like a wolf, and eats like a wolf. . . . . .

I normally don't reply on threads like this so this is a first for me!

There seems to be a rather large group of people who read books and article talking about the evils of ........... (fill in the missing pages) e.g. Freemasons, Roman Catholics, and anything else that one feels is different to their beliefs.

I bet none, or very few, of these people actually speak to and try to really understand where they come from!

Christians were accused, in the 2nd Cent (I think) of being cannibals (because of the very strange rite - to them - of the Lord's Supper / Communion / Mass etc).

Serapha · May 10, 2005

mark53 said:
I normally don't reply on threads like this so this is a first for me!

There seems to be a rather large group of people who read books and article talking about the evils of ........... (fill in the missing pages) e.g. Freemasons, Roman Catholics, and anything else that one feels is different to their beliefs.

Hi there!

Include me in that "large group" of people who read books and articles while seeking the truth.....

I bet none, or very few, of these people actually speak to and try to really understand where they come from!
Christians were accused, in the 2nd Cent (I think) of being cannibals (because of the very strange rite - to them - of the Lord's Supper / Communion / Mass etc).

Probably 90% of what I know I learned directly from the horse's mouth, either through training within the particular denomination or by instruction from their instruction materials, the teachers of such classes, or the author's of the books themselves.

BTW... I have never been accused of being a cannibal

But this thread is about

The Antimasonic Propaganda Machine

and all I know about masons, I learned from a mason who had been through all the training they offer.

Masonry may have religious content, but would not be accurately described as a religion, or one of the religions.
There is no consistency by which it may be described as a religion, being Christian in Christian countries, Muslim in Muslim countries, etc.
Its roots are thoroughly entrenched in Christianity.

But their teachings have deviated from what the Bible teaches, therefore, whether they are a "religion" or not... they should be avoided by Christian believers.

~serapha~

O.F.F. · May 10, 2005

If one looks closely at the quotes, all that is proven by the initial post of this thread, and the quotes contained therein, is the fact the one of the most prolific Masonic authors of all time states that the Religion of Freemasonry is not a mainstream religion but, by his own definition, is religion nonetheless. For Coil in that same passage said:

Freemasonry has a religious service to commit the body of a deceased brother to the dust whence it came and to speed the liberated spirit back to the Great Source of Light? . . . Many Freemasons make this flight with no other, guarantee of a safe landing than their belief in the religion of Freemasonry. If that is a false hope; the Fraternity should abandon funeral services and devote its attention to activities where it is sure of its ground and its authority.

But let me respond to Waynes bottom-line points:

Wayne said:
Masonry may have religious content, but would not be accurately described as a religion, or one of the religions.

The issue is not necessarily whether Freemasonry is a religion or not, the underlining unavoidable issue is this; if Masonry has religious content is that content compatible with biblical Christianity? Some [Masons] will argue yes, based upon vague definitions of concepts taught in the Lodge. However, true Christians, and those Ex-Masons for Jesus that are grounded in God's Word, would argue that the Bible is very specific about such things as who God is, what constitutes His divine revelation to mankind, and is very explicit about the means to salvation, where Freemasonry is not.

Wayne said:
There is no consistency by which it may be described as a religion, being Christian in Christian countries, Muslim in Muslim countries, etc.

Yes, but speaking as a former Mason, I can testify to the fact that because it appears to be Christian in Christian countries, and Muslim in Muslim countries, etc. its religious teachings create an "all encompassing god," which includes any concept of "God" be it Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, etc. by virtue of the chief requirement of membership of belief in "a" Supreme Being rather than "the" Supreme Being as described in the Bible as God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

This is the first and most critical problem with the religious teachings of Freemasonry, because to demand belief in merely any Supreme Being of choice for membership in order to establish a universal brotherhood implies that all concepts of God are ultimately one in the same, which according to Grand Lodge authorities is the basis for its universality:

The first of the universally recognized Landmarks of Freemasonry states that monotheism' is the sole dogma of Freemasonry. Belief in one God is required of every initiate, but his conception of the Supreme Being is left to his own interpretation. Freemasonry is not concerned with theological distinctions. This is the basis of our universality.

Indiana Mentors Manual, p. 19

Masonry has no religious dogma other than that it requires a belief in Deity. Any man, good and true, whether he be Christian, Jew, Mohammedan, Parsee, Buddhist, Brahman or Deist may be admitted to Masonry because all these religions require a belief in Deity.

Masonic Code of Alabama, p. 141, 1963

To the altar of Freemasonry all men bring their most votive offerings. Around it all men, whether they have received their teachings from Confucius, Zoroaster, Moses, Mohammad or the founder of the Christian religion--just so long as they believe in the universality of the fatherhood of God and universality of the brotherhood of man--meet upon a common level. The Jew returns to his synagogue, the Mohammedan to his mosque and the Christian to his temple--each better prepared for the solemn duties of life by the associations in this universal brotherhood.

Louisiana Monitor, p. 150, 1988

As Masons we have one faith, one hope, one charity. We believe in, and depend upon the same God. . .

Kentucky Monitor, p. 169

So as biblically discerning readers can see, although Wayne pointed out, its Christian in Christian countries, Muslim in Muslim countries, etc. given the above quotes from Masonic Grand Lodge authorities, there are problems with Freemasonry from a biblical perspective. These Grand Lodge positions stated above demonstrate that the Religion of Freemasonry is formed by teaching the commonalities of all religions in order to establish a universal brotherhood that can gather around a common altar and worship a common Deity. For the Mason who claims to be a Christian, this grieves the Holy Spirit, and undermines God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ because it is a clear violation of the First and Greatest Commandment to love the Lord our God with all our hearts, mind and strength, and to NOT have any other gods before Him.

Wayne said:
Its roots are thoroughly entrenched in Christianity.

Jesus said in Matthew chapter 7:

15Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

If Freemasonry has blossomed into a tree of "religious universalism," it stands to reason that Jesus Christ is certainly not, and never was its root, no matter how much Satan has deceived Masons to think otherwise.

Abbadon · May 10, 2005

O.F.F. said:
If Freemasonry has blossomed into a tree of "religious universalism," it stands to reason that Jesus Christ is certainly not, and never was its root, no matter how much Satan has deceived Masons to think otherwise.

So since America has a freedom of religion bit in the law, then America is a country for and by Satanists. I mean, that seems to be the reasoning you're using, since any group that accepts others for differing beliefs is a work of Satan according to your arguement.

Well, I see an American flag in your status bar, so according to using reason to your arguement, you're a Satanist.

Unless you are opposed to Satan, then you hate the US.

O.F.F. · May 10, 2005

Abbadon said:
So since America has a freedom of religion bit in the law, then America is a country for and by Satanists. I mean, that seems to be the reasoning you're using, since any group that accepts others for differing beliefs is a work of Satan according to your arguement.

Well, I see an American flag in your status bar, so according to using reason to your arguement, you're a Satanist.

Unless you are opposed to Satan, then you hate the US.

If that is how you see my post, then your reasoning and logic are flawed, or you are biblically ignorant of the points I made. In either case, don't confuse "religious freedom" with "religious universalism."

The Constitution of the United States protects "religious freedom" in our pluralistic society; Freemasonry, on the other hand, espouses "religious universalism" in its secret society. There is a big difference between the two.

The former allows its citizens to express religion as they see fit without the intervention of the government or other citizens. For Christians that's a good thing, especially when we consider the persecuted Church in other parts of the world. The latter, however, flies in the face of the One True Living God's desire to have an absolutely radically exclusive personal relationship with everyone on this planet through an accurate and saving knowledge of Jesus Christ our Lord.

Masons in America are free to express the religious teachings of Freemasonry, but from a Christian perspective those teachings are anti-Christ and are therefore from Satan, who is the author of all counterfeit gospels.

Rev Wayne · May 10, 2005

Serapha said:
But their teachings have deviated from what the Bible teaches, therefore, whether they are a "religion" or not... they should be avoided by Christian believers.

It would be helpful if you could be more specific as to which teachings you refer to.

O.F.F. said:
If one looks closely at the quotes, all that is proven by the initial post of this thread, and the quotes contained therein, is the fact the one of the most prolific Masonic authors of all time states that the Religion of Freemasonry is not a mainstream religion but, by his own definition, is religion nonetheless.

Exactly. No one has tried to suggest that Freemasonry is totally non-religious. But you have certainly tried to claim in the past that Freemasonry is a religion in and of itself, which is very different from what you just stated. Your quote of Coil indicates clearly your take on the matter:

Some attempt to avoid the issue by saying that Freemasonry is not a religion but is religious, seeming to believe that the substitution of an adjective for a noun makes a fundamental difference. It would be as sensible to say that man had no intellect but was intellectual or that he had no honor but was honorable . . . The oft repeated aphorism: Freemasonry is not a religion, but is most emphatically religions handmaid, has been challenged as meaningless,which it seems, to be. . . . Freemasonry certainly requires a belief in the existence of, and mans dependence upon, a Supreme Being to whom he is responsible. What can a church add to that, except to bring into one fellowship those who have like feelings?

That is exactly what the lodge does . . . Does Freemasonry have a creed (I believe) or tenet (he holds) or dogma (I think) to which all members must adhere? Does Freemasonry continually teach and insist upon a creed, tenet, and dogma? Does it have meetings characterized by the practice of rites and ceremonies in and by which its creed, tenet, and dogma are illustrated by myths, symbols, and allegories? If Freemasonry were not religion, what would have to be done to make it such? . . . The difference between a lodge and a church is one of degree and not of kind . . . Freemasonry has a religious service to commit the body of a deceased brother to the dust whence it came and to speed the liberated spirit back to the Great Source of Light? . . . Many Freemasons make this flight with no other, guarantee of a safe landing than their belief in the religion of Freemasonry. If that is a false hope; the Fraternity should abandon funeral services and devote its attention to activities where it is sure of its ground and its authority.

'Coil's Masonic Encyclopedia', page 512

The interesting part, as usual, would be th parts you omit with your ellipses, which always tells a different story. For instance, his conclusions on the matter. For some reason, when quoting Masonic authors, you always manage to quote from the discussion, but never from the conclusions. One of which, of course, as already posted, was that Freemasonry is neither "a religion or one of the religions."

You may bluster all you wish on the matter, but this totally contradicts all your earlier claims, along with your attempt to bolster the claim by quoting Coil. Your claim was that Freemasonry is a religion, your definitions you provided for "what a religion is," your entire arguments, the tenor of your debate, everything about your former posts on the matter, indicate that your claim was that Freemasonry is a religion, fully trying to establish it in the sense in which Coil insists it is not. Heck, you even supplied the title along with some of your posts, even (as I recall) started a thread by the same title, "The Religion of Freemasonry." In those posts, you tried your best to make it out to be a religion in the same sense Coil says it is not, and tried to quote Coil to "back you up," even though we find now he clearly does not.

So pardon me for doubting your sincerity when you turn 180 degrees in the opposite direction and start saying:

The issue is not necessarily whether Freemasonry is a religion or not. . .

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Kind of hard to believe that something that has been the WHOLE issue with you from Day One is now "not necessarily" the issue at all. You could have stated the matter more fully (and more honestly) by simply stating, "Now that someone has posted what Coil actually said, I need to reverse myself."

This is the first and most critical problem with the religious teachings of Freemasonry, because to demand belief in merely any Supreme Being of choice for membership in order to establish a universal brotherhood implies that all concepts of God are ultimately one in the same

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Wrong. Freemasonry, in fact, not only "implies," it states just the opposite, that all systemic concepts of God are different, and therefore systematic religion is a matter that is not discussed while Lodge is in session. The only reason belief in God is required is Freemasonry's existence as a system of morality, and they rightly acknowledge that systems of morality depend upon a belief in a Supreme God who has created a moral system and who enforces that system, expecting moral behavior from those He has created. The only idea of universal brotherhood is an acknowledgment that as creaures who have all been created by the same Supreme God, we are united in our common humanity. And within those beliefs, yes, Masonry does affirm that there are certain truths that are to be found in all religions, and the claim is a truthful one, as you have been shown more than once. Your claim that they try to unite in a system in which all concepts of God are the same is a false one, easily shown to be so by Masonry's stated principle of non-discussion of religion. The purpose?--to preserve the harmony of the Lodge!

Now if discussion of one's religion is a topic that would disrupt the harmony of the Lodge, and is thus studiously avoided by the Lodge for that stated reason, then how in the world can you make the absurd claim that they all have religious beliefs that are "one and the same?" The fact is, they have acknowledged in the very principles and by-laws that Masons are from different religions.

These Grand Lodge positions stated above demonstrate that the Religion of Freemasonry is formed by teaching the commonalities of all religions in order to establish a universal brotherhood that can gather around a common altar and worship a common Deity. For the Mason who claims to be a Christian, this grieves the Holy Spirit, and undermines God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ because it is a clear violation of the First and Greatest Commandment to love the Lord our God with all our hearts, mind and strength, and to NOT have any other gods before Him.

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Wrong again. They teach the commonalities of religions so as not to state anything about God or about religious belief that will contradict any man's faith. The design and purpose is to teach morality, not religious faith--which of course is left up to the individual and his own beliefs. And to call it a "violation" of the 1st commandment is another absurdity. How can something that is part of a Christian's faith, regardless of whether it is part of the accepted beliefs of any other religion or creed, be said to be in "violation" of what he believes, to "undermine" and "grieve" God at all? We're not talking about contradictions here, after all, you stated yourself they were "commonalities." That is an admission in itself that we are speaking of common--that is, shared--beliefs that transcend the boundaries of the religions you speak of. And there are certainly a great deal more of those shared beliefs than you would prefer to allow. But no one is stating in any way that those common beliefs are lifted out of all the others to form another separate religious system. A Mason's religious preference when he leaves the Lodge is the same as it was before he went in. And for Christians who are Masons that is their Christian faith.

If Freemasonry has blossomed into a tree of "religious universalism," it stands to reason that Jesus Christ is certainly not, and never was its root, no matter how much Satan has deceived Masons to think otherwise.

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That's like saying, "Once a Christian organization, always a Christian organization," an erroneous claim right on the face of it.

But your idea that it never had a Christian foundation flies against all evidence from history, even that of your former go-to guy Coil:

(g) Rituals of the Early Eighteenth Century.
Among the most informative documents on the present subject are the early rituals, dating how far back we do not know, which began to be exposed to the public in 1723 and continued at the rate of about one per year over a considerable period.
In A Mason's Examination of 1723, we find: "Q. What Lodge are you of? A. I am of the Lodge of St. Stephens."
The Grand Mystery of Free-Masons Discover'd of 1724 states: "Q. How many make a Lodge? A. God and the Square, with five or seven right and perfect Masons, etc. * * * Q. What Lodge are you of? A. The Lodge of St. John. * * * Q. How many Lights? A. Three; a Right East, South and West. Q. What do they represent? A. The Three Persons, Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Q. How many Pillars? A. Two, Jachin and Boaz. Q. What do they represent? A. A Strength and Stability of the Church in all Ages."
The Whole Institution of Free-Masons Opened of 1725 says: "From whence came you--Answer, I came from a right worshipful Lodge of Masters and Fellows belonging to Holy St. John, who doth greet all perfect Brothers of our Holy Secret," etc. * * * What Lodge are you of, answer, St. John.--How stands a Lodge--South East and West. How many Lights belongs to a Lodge. Twelve. What are they. Father, Son, Holy Ghost, Sun, Moon, Master, Mason, Square, Rule, Plum, Line, Mell, and Cheisal.--who is Master of all Lodges, God and the Square. * * * We differ from the Babylonians who did presume to Build to Heaven, but we pray to blessed Trinity to let us build Freemasonry, High and Square, and they shall have the praise to whom it is due. * * * Therefore in some parts by Merit, yet more by free Grace, they obtain'd a name, and a new Command, such as Christ gave his Disciples, for to love each other, * * * Yet for all this I want the primitive Word, I answer it was God in six Terminations, to wit I am, and Jehovah is the answer to it* * * *
The Grand Mystery Laid Open of 1726 says: "Who is the Grand Master of all the Lodges in the world? INRI* * * * Why was St. John calle King? Because he was head of all the Christian Lodges.* * * *
In The Mystery of Freemasonry of 1730, appears this: "Q. To what Lodge do you belong? A. The Holy Lodge of St. John."
Prichard's Masonry Dissected of 1730 has the following: "Q. From whence came you? A. From the Holy Lodge of St. John's. * * * Q. Who doth G denote? A. One that's greater than you. Q. Who's greater than I, a Free and Accepted Mason, the Master of a Lodge. A. The Grand Architect and Contriver of the Universe or He that was taken up to the top of the Pinnacle of the Holy Temple."

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What I see significant in this is that (1) the Christian foundation is easily seen, and (2) the development of the ritual may be seen, so that we have at first, in answer to "whence came you," the answer "a Lodge of St. Stephen,", then "the Lodge of St. John," then "the Holy Lodge of St. John." Thus it is easy to see some of the earlier form that this familiar discourse took, and trace its development into the form it has come to have even now.

You've quoted Pike, we have shown PIke was aware of the earlier Christian foundation; you've quoted Mackey, we've shown Mackey was more than aware of it; you've quoted Coil, we've now shown that Coil was even more acaquainted with it than some others.

How many more of the sources from which you quote will it take before you see that it is a commonly known and accepted fact in Masonry, that it once had solid Christian roots?

Rev Wayne · May 10, 2005

Several significant excerpts from Coils extended discourse on the topic Religion:

Freemasons are still living who remember when the appeal of the church was compared with the appeal of the lodge for attendance, and Freemasons were often twitted for being able to go to lodge when they could not be induced to go to church.

The Masonic reaction in the United States was somewhat like that in France. Masonic writers in the former began to disavow all pretentions that lodges could compete with churches and for that purpose firmly denied that Masonry was a religion.

In asserting that Freemasonry is not a religion, the speaker inevitably thinks of a sect or denomination or a church congregation or church ritual and forms. He is likely to be thinking of church going, hymn singing, communion service, collecting the free-will offering, and hearing a sermon.

There can be no religion without any church and, indeed, without any congregation or even one companion, save God.

Freemasonry certainly requires a belief in the existence of, and mans dependence upon, a Supreme Being to whom he is responsible. What can a church add to that, except to bring into one fellowship those who have like feelings?

If Freemasonry were not religion, what would have to be done to make it such? Nothing would be necessary or at least nothing but to add more of the same. That brings us to the real crux of the matter; the difference between a lodge and a church is one of degree but not of kind.

Some would be willing to believe that Freemasonry has beliefs and tenets, but they shrink at creeds and dogma, because the latter pair seem to have some invidious connotation, though all of them have essentially the same meaning, a required belief. Again, some Freemasons who are active in their churches seem to find the lodge less sacred than the church.

The very men or class of men who have led the way in furthering the religious rites of Freemasonry are the same who afterwards feared the encroachment on the functions of the church.

There is a tendency on the part of some who belong to two organizations to try to make each become more and more like the other, and so a great many churchmen contributed to the extension of religious dogma and church atmosphere in the Fraternity.

Strange, every place Coil speaks of "religion" in comparison/contrast with Freemasonry, he also seems to use the word "church." Not once in his discussion does he mention "synagogue" or "mosque." Can you think of any reason that would be the case?

Well, how about, all the quotes in the rituals are from the Bible, and not the book of some other religion?
Or maybe, Christianity is so firmly at its roots, it would be unnatural to think of anything other than Christianity?

It is very much apparent that even down to Coi's time, the expectation that if one is a Mason, he is also a Christian, is such a normal one that those who speak of Masons as Christians were doing so matter-of-factly. I'd say that expectation has not changed all that much since he penned his encyclopedia.

O.F.F. · May 10, 2005

Wayne said:
It is very much apparent that even down to Coi's time, the expectation that if one is a Mason, he is also a Christian, is such a normal one that those who speak of Masons as Christians were doing so matter-of-factly. I'd say that expectation has not changed all that much since he penned his encyclopedia.

If this is true, then why on earth would the following Grand Lodge authorities suggest so "matter-of-factly" that Masons and Freemasonry are not as Christian as you deceive yourself into thinking? After all, these are Masonic authorities, where YOU and Henry Coil are not.

The first of the universally recognized Landmarks of Freemasonry states that monotheism' is the sole dogma of Freemasonry. Belief in one God is required of every initiate, but his conception of the Supreme Being is left to his own interpretation. Freemasonry is not concerned with theological distinctions. This is the basis of our universality.

Indiana Mentors Manual, p. 19

Masonry has no religious dogma other than that it requires a belief in Deity. Any man, good and true, whether he be Christian, Jew, Mohammedan, Parsee, Buddhist, Brahman or Deist may be admitted to Masonry because all these religions require a belief in Deity.

Masonic Code of Alabama, p. 141, 1963

To the altar of Freemasonry all men bring their most votive offerings. Around it all men, whether they have received their teachings from Confucius, Zoroaster, Moses, Mohammad or the founder of the Christian religion--just so long as they believe in the universality of the fatherhood of God and universality of the brotherhood of man--meet upon a common level. The Jew returns to his synagogue, the Mohammedan to his mosque and the Christian to his temple--each better prepared for the solemn duties of life by the associations in this universal brotherhood.

Louisiana Monitor, p. 150, 1988

As Masons we have one faith, one hope, one charity. We believe in, and depend upon the same God. . .

Kentucky Monitor, p. 169

If a Christian can't see the problem in this, even if he is a pastor, then he is either lying, in complete denial deliberately deceiving himself or he's so pitifully ignorant of the biblical implications that he needs serious help.

Rev Wayne · May 10, 2005

Mike,

You are welcome to take this thread wherever you please. But please don't expect me to continue to run around in circles with you. From a post quite some time ago, p. 33:

You quote Coil on the matter, but you fail to notice that in the same manner as Pike, he has a presupposition of Christianity in mind as he writes:

Quote:

The difference between a lodge and a church is one of degree and not of kind .

So, Mike, why did Coil say "church" and not "synagogue" or "mosque?" Do you not see he is making a direct comparison not to "religion," but to Christianity? But have you not noticed also what an extreme minority of Masonic writers you can find who support the idea? Check out any Grand Lodge website, a space on this great "information highway" where the effort is made by them to put before all the world who may surf by, some idea of what Freemasonry is all about, and on every single one of them, or at least on all of them that bother to address the subject, there is a statement declaring Freemasonry is not "a" religion. You keep trying to tell us that in spite of the administrative setup of Freemasonry in which only within a Grand Lodge is there any authority, there is yet a similarity overall that unifies. We have agreed with that in general, while preserving the actual existence of such authority, resident in the Grand Lodge alone. Yet when it comes to this statement, which you will find to be unanimously stated by every Grand Lodge in existence, you remain in denial. You can't have it both ways, my friend.

Where have I seen that comment made to you before? Oh yeah, that's right, it was my last post to you--dealing with Coil there, just as the one quoted here, and dealing with the same remark, making the same statement to you, noting that Coil presupposes Christianity in every single remark he makes about "religions." He'd have been more accurate saying "denominations," which is the only separation he could accurately make from a basic presupposition of Christianity.

If this is true, then why on earth would the following Grand Lodge authorities suggest so "matter-of-factly" that Masons and Freemasonry are not as Christian as you deceive yourself into thinking?

Wake up and smell the java, Mike, I never said "Masons and Freemasonry are Christian!" Where did you interpret such a strange statement? I was speaking of Coil's estimation of an original foundation of Christianity, not a present reality of it.

If a Christian can't see the problem in this, even if he is a pastor, then he is either lying, in complete denial deliberately deceiving himself or he's so pitifully ignorant of the biblical implications that he needs serious help.

And anyone reading this thread is blind if they cannot see that you are in avoidance when I speak of Coil and you offer a weak rebuttal with anything but Coil.

Your use of monitors that have wording that differs from the mainstream is once again duly noted, and once again duly disregarded. That is, unless you can show, from all the other monitors you "claim" to have in your possessioin, that the above statements are representative of Freemasonry, and not the exception, as is generally the case when you offer such quotes.

And as usual, your own interpretation of what you read, superimposed upon it, gives it an amusing flavor. Besides which, your accusations are in error, being based upon the false standard you have set up, namely, that since Freemasonry is not identical to Christianity, it is to be rejected--a ridiculous notion.

Your false standard of "compatibility," by which you actually intend "absolute uniformity," sets up quite a series of absurdities: when we try to point out that Freemasonry is interpreted, apprehended, and appropriated by the individual, and we as Christian individuals can see Christian interpretations of the symbols, then you bristle at the suggestion, accusing us of "trying to make Freemasonry Christian"--another absurdity. And all the while you are attacking Freemasonry because it is not Christianity, you are on the other hand criticizing it on the strange notion that it should be. Which goes a long ways toward explaining why you still carry the conversation around in circles. What else would we expect from such circular logic?

After all, these are Masonic authorities, where YOU and Henry Coil are not.

Careful there, bud, yer gonna get whiplash with all these quick reversals. Your quote, p. 32, this very thread:

Not only Pike, but other prominent Masonic authors claim that Freemasonry is a religion. Henry Coil was critical of the Craft for denying that it is, indeed, a religion.

So you've gone now from lumping Coil together with Pike and others, and referring to him as a "prominent Masonic author" and quoting him authoritatively--to lumping him together with me, and declaring him not to be either prominent or authoritative, and slamming him?
Your circle seems to be widening, just like in Yeats' "The Second Coming":

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
__________________________________
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

Let's face it, you snatch at whatever position happens to be convenient for you. You latch onto Coil when it suits you; when Coil is shown to have said differently, you drop him like a hot coal. You've done the same in the past with Pike, later with Wilmshurst, and Mackey, etc. etc. etc.

Maybe circles work for you, but as the man said, eventually the center cannot hold. You have no rope to pull you up any longer, I cannot help your endless implosions, and I have no desire to follow up on anything else you quote and cause them to implode as well. Establishing the pattern is sufficient, abandoning you to the pattern is the only logical next move to prevent being sucked into an endless abyss of rehashes of things you have refused to see, time and time again. It would serve no purpose other than to be drawn into the vortex with you. I have no desire to engage in it further.

Rev Wayne · May 10, 2005

But let me respond to Waynes bottom-line points:

The "bottom-line points" you referred to with that comment, of course, were not mine but Coil's, I simply summed them up. Typically, you ignore what the quoted material had to say, which you can't refute, and go for the personal attack.

Since Coil obviously has become distasteful for you, your opinions of him residing as they now do, in both sides of your mouth, perhaps you can respond to something far different.

In General Ahiman Rezon and Freemasons Guide by Daniel Sickels (an 1868 remake of Dermotts 1772 original), there is no Hiram Abiff. There are many of the usual symbols and interpretations of them, the emphasis on death, burial, and resurrection are still present, King Solomons temple is a key focus, and there is the MM lecture as wellbut all without any mention of any Hiram Abiff or his death or any other details about him at all. There are the usual symbols of the trowel, the twelve messengers, the acacia-tree, the letter G, the pot of incense, the beehive, the sword pointing to a naked heart, the hourglass, the anchor and the ark, the all-seeing eye, and the 47th problem of Euclid. There is the usual passage from Ecclesiastes 12:1-7. There is the description of the Temple and its dimensions.

But there is no Hiram Abiff, no three ruffians, no acted-out ritual in which Hiram is struck dead, buried, and his body later moved. Consequently, there is no exhortation to imitate Hiram.

But guess what? The exhortation is there and intact, even though Hiram Abiff is not. Naturally, the wording is a bit different without Hiram as its object. It reads:

Thus we close the explanation of the emblems upon the solemn thought of death, which, without revelation, is dark and gloomy; but we are suddenly revived by the ever-green and ever-living sprig of Faith in the merits of the Lion of the tribe of Judah; which strengthens us, with confidence and composure, to look forward to a blessed immortality; and doubt not, but in the glorious morn of the resurrection, our bodies will rise, and become as incorruptible as our souls.

Then let us imitate the good man in his virtuous and amiable conduct; in his unfeigned piety to God; in his inflexible fidelity to his trust; that we may welcome the grim tyrant Death, and receive him as a kind messenger sent from our Supreme Grand Master, to translate us from this imperfect to that all-perfect, glorious, and celestial Lodge above, where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides. (p. 214-215)

It is easy to see that the wording is preserved intact, though without mention of Hiram Abiff, nor an exhortation to imitate Hiram Abiff. Clearly, then, the exhortation as we have it from the MM ritual did not originally contain any mention of Hiram Abiff. Someone has recently mentioned that Hiram Abiff did not appear until around 1725. Yet here we have a strong indication that even as late as 1772 one of the premier versions of the ritual in Masonry did not as yet contain any mention of Hiram Abiff at all.

I dont know what to make of this in comparison with Mackeys version, which actually was earlier (1852 compared with Sickels 1868 date) and was patterned not after Dermotts version, but Dalchos. I do know that Dermotts was earlier than Dalchos but I know very little of the transmission history before that point.

Just a little food for thought.

Serapha · May 10, 2005

Never pick a fight with people who buy ink by the barrel.--Bill Clinton

gotcha....

O.F.F. · May 10, 2005

Rev Wayne said:
Thus we close the explanation of the emblems upon the solemn thought of death, which, without revelation, is dark and gloomy; but we are suddenly revived by the ever-green and ever-living sprig of Faith in the merits of the Lion of the tribe of Judah; which strengthens us, with confidence and composure, to look forward to a blessed immortality; and doubt not, but in the glorious morn of the resurrection, our bodies will rise, and become as incorruptible as our souls.

Then let us imitate the good man in his virtuous and amiable conduct; in his unfeigned piety to God; in his inflexible fidelity to his trust; that we may welcome the grim tyrant Death, and receive him as a kind messenger sent from our Supreme Grand Master, to translate us from this imperfect to that all-perfect, glorious, and celestial Lodge above, where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides. (p. 214-215)

The General Ahiman Rezon and Freemasons Guide, where the above quote comes from, is an official book that is distributed by the Grand Lodge of South Carolina to Masons who are Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, all of whom are men who have no common faith other than their belief in "a" Supreme Being, as well as men like Wayne who claim to be Christians. How would each of these groups of men interpret this text?

Notice that it clearly states that they will gain entry into heaven. This teaching is applied to ALL Masons, not just those who claim to be Christians. Even if Wayne has not met a Muslim, Hindu, or Buddhist who was made a Mason in his jurisdiction of South Carolina, he cannot prove that none have never been "raised" there, nor can he prove that the Grand Lodge of South Carolina would deny their membership into Masonry, since each would qualify by virtue of their belief in "a" Supreme Being.

Therefore, Jesus Christ cannot be the common denominator among them all. Notice that they speak of the "Lion of the tribe of Judah," but they do not define the term in the guide or monitor. One who attempts to interpret the text from a Christian paradigm would likely equate the "Lion of the tribe of Judah" to Jesus Christ.

Wayne said:
I never said "Masons and Freemasonry are Christian!" Where did you interpret such a strange statement?

Since Wayne admits that Masons and Freemasonry are not Christian, he is misleading readers here by attempting to interpret Freemasonry using a non-Masonic paradigm (i.e. a Christian paradigm). As will become very clear, Freemasonry embraces a different meaning of the phrase "Lion of the tribe of Judah." Consider the words found in the Grand Lodge of Florida's Mentor's Manual:

The lion, from the earliest times of recorded history, has been a symbol of might and royalty. It was placed on the standard of the Tribe of Judah because it was the royal tribe of the Hebrew Nation. The Kings of Judah were, therefore, called the Lion of the Tribe of Judah. This was one of the titles of King Solomon. This is the literal meaning of the term, but it also has a symbolic one. The Jewish idea of the Messiah was that of a mighty temporal king. He was designated the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, for it was from this tribe that all rulers came. The expression does not, of necessity, refer to Jesus of Nazareth, though the Christian Mason may so interpret the name if he desires. The Lion of the Tribe of Judah also describes the Messiah of the Jewish Mason or the mediator of some of the ancient religions of the East whose worshippers are Masons. Freedom of choice as to the application of these symbols is one of the reasons for the growth of Freemasonry over the centuries.

Mentor's Manual (Florida), page 24

The Grand Lodge of Pennsylvania is currently circulating a book by Oliver Day Street titled, Symbolism of the Three Degrees. Several statements are made concerning the existence of multiple mediators between God and man, as well as other redeemers:

The lion from most ancient times has been a symbol of might or royalty. It was blazoned upon the standard of the tribe of Judah, because it was the royal tribe. The kings of Judah were, therefore, each called Lion of the Tribe of Judah, and such was one of the titles of Solomon. Remembrance of this fact gives appropriateness to an expression employed at one point in our ceremonies which is otherwise obscure, not to say absurd. Such is the literal meaning of this phrase, but it also has a symbolical one. The Jewish idea of a Messiah was of a mighty temporal king. He was also designated as the Lion of the Tribe of Judah; in fact this title was regarded as peculiarly belonging to him. This expression does not, as many Masons suppose, necessarily have a reference to Jesus of Nazareth. The Christian Mason is privileged so to interpret it, if he likes, but the Jew has equal right to understand it as meaning his Messiah. Indeed, every great religion of the world has contained the conception in some form of a Mediator between God and man, a Redeemer who would raise mankind from the death of this life and the grave to an everlasting existence with God hereafter. The Mason who is a devotee of one of these religions, say, Buddhism, Brahmanism or Mohammedanism, is likewise entitled to construe this expression as referring to his own Mediator.

Symbolism of the Three Degrees, pp. 154-155

Wayne has seen these quotes before, and he'll continue to see them everytime he tries to mislead folks into thinking the phrase somehow lifts up Jesus Christ. He knows perfectly well that the Masonic view of the expression "Lion of the tribe of Judah" is used generically to refer to any so-called "savior" of any religion that claims to have one. So don't be deceived by his tactics to try and say that it represents Jesus only.

Why a Christian pastor would join, support, promote and defend an organization that makes such blasphemous claims, after knowing that I Timothy 2:5 declares that "there is one God and only one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," is beyond Christian comprehension. It must grieve the Holy Spirit to see this happening and it should appall every genuine follower of Jesus Christ who reads this thread. It is a travesty to the "cloth" and an embarrassment to the Christian faith.

Rev Wayne · May 11, 2005

The General Ahiman Rezon and Freemasons Guide, where the above quote comes from, is an official book that is distributed by the Grand Lodge of South Carolina to Masons who are Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, all of whom are men who have no common faith other than their belief in "a" Supreme Being, as well as men like Wayne who claim to be Christians. How would each of these groups of men interpret this text?

Better back up on that one, Michael. As I stated in my post, the version I quoted from is the GENERAL Ahiman Rezon, and Freemasons Guide by Daniel Sickels, written in 1868, and not only does it not have ANY jurisdiction in South Carolina, it NEVER HAS.

The book in South Carolina is The Ahiman Rezon or Book of Constitutions, was published in 2003, and is a version that was edited by Albert Mackey. Mackeys is an edit done on Dalchos version of 1807, Sickels version is an edit of Dermotts older version from 1772.

Sickels version has never had any jurisdiction or even any significance in South Carolina. Maybe you should check your facts before you post off the top of your head, it might save you from going over your head. Or perhaps you should simply read my posts before you respond to them.

Since Wayne admits that Masons and Freemasonry are not Christian, he is misleading readers here by attempting to interpret Freemasonry using a non-Masonic paradigm (i.e. a Christian paradigm).

Circles, Circles, Circles!

You already made the same accusation earlier, and as I pointed out to you then, Masonry expects its members to interpret the symbols according to their own belief system.

Obviously you quote this from the ex-Mason piece, Who is Hiram Abiff? They also, I notice, speak of using a non-Masonic paradigm. Sorry, but interpreting symbols of Freemasonry from ones religious viewpoint has always been the Masonic way of doing things. Otherwise, how could you post, as you have just done, about Buddhism, Brahmanism or Mohammedanism?

As will become very clear, Freemasonry embraces a different meaning of the phrase "Lion of the tribe of Judah."

As always, you pull out your one isolated monitor quote to try to prove something unprovable. On the Lion of the tribe of Judah, Masonry is extremely clear, if you will only get your nose out of the Florida Monitor long enough to consult the wide variety of Masonic sources that dispute your claim:

From A Memorial Service Program, Texas:

We have assembled in this sacred hour for the purpose of rendering the last loving tribute of reverence and esteem and to pledge anew our fidelity to the blessed memory of those, our beloved Brethren who since last we met on a similar occasion, have answered the last roll call, the final summons, marching out of the night to the glories of an undying day.
"What doth the Lord require of thee, 0 man, but 'to do justly and love mercy and walk humbly with thy God.'" "And one of the elders sayeth unto me: 'Rejoice ye and be exceedingly glad-behold the Lion of the tribe of Judah hath prevailed to open the book and to loosen the seven seals thereof," reminding us of two of the great symbolisms of Masonry - the white lamb-skin apron and the sprig of acacia.
The white apron, representative of the lamb that taketh away the sin of the world; emblematical of the sweet peace of God's divine love, which passeth all human understanding and in the portrayal of the Resurrection of the body, the immortality of the soul and the life everlasting, and symbolical of the Fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of man, and that the good Mason is constantly reminded by the ever living sprig of Faith in the merits of the Lion of the tribe of Judah which strengthens him with confidence and composure to look forward to a blessed immortality and doubts not but that in the glorious morn of the Resurrection, his body will rise and become as incorruptible as his soul; and thus death is not a cessation of life, but only an incident in it.

The seven seals is the Lion of Judah spoken of in Revelation 5:5, who is JESUS CHRIST.

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Coil says:

Revelation 5:5 reads: Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the Book, and to loose the Seven Seals thereof. I Samuel 17:37 uses the expression: paw of the lion. The Lion of the tribe of Judah is supposed to mean Christ and the allusion is said to refer to the doctrine of resurrection.

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Mackeys Encyclopedia says:

The connection of Solomon, as the chief of the tribe of Judah, with the lion, which was the achievement of the tribe, has caused this expression to be referred, in the third degree, to him who brought light and immortality to light. The old Christian interpretation of the Masonic symbols here prevails; and in Ancient Craft Masonry all allusions to the lion, as the lions paw, the lions grip, etc., refer to the doctrine of the resurrection taught by him who is known as the lion of the tribe of Judah. The expression is borrowed from the Apocalypse, (v. 5) Behold, the Lion which is of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

And:

Returning, then, to the acacia, we find that it is capable of three explanations. It is a symbol of immortality, of innocence, and of initiation. But these three significations are closely connected, and that connection must be observed, if we desire to obtain a just interpretation of the symbol. Thus, in this one symbol, we are taught that in the initiation of life, of which the initiation in the Third Degree is simply emblematic, innocence must for a time lie in the grave, at length, however, to be called, by the word of the Great Master of the Universe, to a blissful immortality.

Combine with this instruction the recollection of the place where the sprig of acacia was planted-Mount Calvary-the place of sepulture of Him who "brought life and immortality to light," and Who, in Christian Freemasonry, is designated, as He is in Scripture, as the lion of the tribe of Judah; and remember, too, that in the mystery of His death, the wood of the cross takes the place of the acacia.

Therefore, in this little and apparently insignificant symbol, but which is really and truly the most important and significant one in Masonic science, we have a beautiful suggestion of all the mysteries of life and death, of time and eternity, of the present and of the future.

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*

Philip de Thaun, 12th century:

Know that the lioness, if she bring forth a dead cub, she holds her cub and the lion arrives; he goes about and cries till it revives on the third day.

Know that the lioness signifies St. Mary, and the lion Christ, who gave himself to death for the people; three days he lay in the earth to gain our souls.

By the cry of the lion, they understand the power of God, by which Christ was restored to life and robbed hell.

The phrase, lion of the tribe of Judah, therefore, when used in the Masonic ritual, referred in its original interpretation to Christ, him who brought life and immortality to light.

Masonic Bible, Master Mason edition:

In the tribal benediction pronounced upon Judah, the lions whelp is used emblematically of strength; hence, the ensign on the banner of Judah was a lion. The phrase in the Masonic ritual, The lion of the tribe of Judah, is Messianic and refers to Christ, the anointed of God and royal head of Gods Kingdom.

Macoys Dictionary of Freemasonry:

The lion was a symbol of Jeremiah, because of the terrible voice of his threatening; and of St. Mark, because his gospel begins with the voice in the wilderness; but principally of Christ, who is denominated the Lion of the tribe of Judah, and will ultimately subdue all things to himself; for he must reign till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

K.J. Stewart, The Freemasons Manual, 1851:

These beautiful and expressive emblems thus close with the solemn realities of death, the deep, damp vault, the mattock and the grave. These are sad and gloomy considerations to our race, and even the animal creation shrinks back with horror from the thought of death. But to the Christian, the coldness and darkness of the tomb are hidden by the evergreens of faith and hope, which spring forth from the Root of Jesse, who was cut down in the midst of his days, but from whose resurrection we derive glorious evidences of a blessed immortality. If, like our great pattern and exemplar, we are faithful to our trusts, violence may assail, but cannot destroy us; Death will no longer be a tyrant, but a Tyler to usher us into the presence of our Supreme Grand Master, who presides in the Lodge above.

[Stewart, who also patterns his manual after Dermotts Ahiman Rezon, interestingly, does not have any mention of Hiram Abiff in his work either, same as Sickels]

Pike, Morals and Dogma:

The murder of Hiram, his burial, and his being raised again by the Master, are symbols, both of the death, burial, and resurrection of the Redeemer; and of the death and burial in sins of the natural man, and his being raised again to a new life, or born again, by the direct action of the Redeemer; after Morality (symbolized by the Entered Apprentice's grip), and Philosophy (symbolized by the grip of the Fellow-Craft), had failed to raise him. That of the Lion of the House of Judah is the strong grip, never to be broken, with which Christ, of the royal line of that House, has clasped to Himself the whole human race, and embraces them in His wide arms as closely and affectionately as brethren embrace each other on the five points of fellowship. (p. 640-41)

Even Arthur Waite:

Behold the Lion Who is the conqueror of the Tribe of Judah, the Root of David! I will open the Book, and the seven seals thereof. I have beheld Satan as a bolt falling from heaven. It is Thou Who hast given us Power to crush dragons, scorpions and all Thine enemies beneath Thy feet.

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Carl Claudy, Introduction to Freemasonry:

The lion is one of Freemasonry's most powerful and potent symbols both in the Lion of the Tribe of Judah and the paw of the lion.

Judah was symbolized as a lion in his father's deathbed blessing. The lion was upon the standard of the large and powerful tribe of Judah. "Lion of the Tribe of Judah" was one of Solomon's titles. Christian interpretation of the phrase springs from Revelation (v, 5), Behold, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book and to loose the seven seals thereof.

The idea of a resurrection is curiously interwoven with the lion. In the Twelfth Century, one Philip de Thaun stated: "Know that the lioness, if she bring forth a dead cub, she holds her cub and the lion arrives; he goes about and cries, till it revives on the third day.

Thus the strong lion of Judah
The gates of cruel death being broken
Arose on the third day
At the loud sounding voice of the father.

George Steinmetz, Freemasonry: Its Hidden Meaning:

On mention of the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, the Christian

immediately traces the lineage of Jesus, and interprets such

reference as pertaining to him. No criticism is intended of these

views, no particular interpretation is ever forced upon the Mason,

nor is Masonry dogmatic in the sense that any specific

interpretation of its mysteries is insisted upon as being the one

and only true meaning of its allegories and symbology. No Mason

should ever be intolerant of the views of others, and he should

conside r any intelligent interpretation offered by another, for it

is through diversity that the harmony of unity is eventually

attained, be it in the Universe or in the Lodge.

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Missouri Lodge of Research, Key Masonic Words and Phrases:

Lion of the Tribe of Judah

In the tribal benediction pronounced upon Judah, the "lion's whelp" is used emblematically of strength. Hence, the ensign on the banner of Judah was a lion. The phrase in the Masonic ritual, "The lion of the tribe of Judah," is Messianic and refers to Christ, the anointed of God and royal head of God's Kingdom.

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Master: Brethren - Before I declare the Lodge closed, let us unite in humbly acknowledging our dependence on the Most High. May His right hand be as a shield and buckles to us against the assaults of our enemies; and, at the final day, may each and every one of us be raised, through the merits of the Lion of the tribe of Judah, to the celestial Lodge above, where the Supreme Grand Master forever presides - forever reigns. Amen." (Lightfoot's Manual of the Lodge, p. 5)

[the merits of Solomon or anyone else cannot do this, it is a reference to Christ]

PhoenixMasonry homepage:

Lion Of The Tribe of Judah

The devise on the banner of the tribe of Judah was a Lion. The expression borrowed from the Apocalypse, "Behold, the Lion which is of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof." The phrase, "Lion of the tribe of Judah," therefore when used in the Masonic ritual, referred in its original interpretation to Christ, him who "brought light and immortality to light." Rev. 5:5 - Gen. 49:9

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Manly Hall, Secret Teachings of All Ages:

The origin of the Trinity is obvious to anyone who will observe the daily manifestations of the sun. This orb, being the symbol of all Light, has three distinct phases: rising, midday, and setting. The philosophers therefore divided the life of all things into three distinct parts: growth, maturity, and decay. Between the twilight of dawn and the twilight of evening is the high noon of resplendent glory. God the Father, the Creator of the world, is symbolized by the dawn. His color is blue, because the sun rising in the morning is veiled in blue mist. God the Son he Illuminating One sent to bear witness of His Father before all the worlds, is the celestial globe at noonday, radiant and magnificent, the maned Lion of Judah, the Golden-haired Savior of the World. Yellow is His color and His power is without end. God the Holy Ghost is the sunset phase, when the orb of day, robed in flaming red, rests for a moment upon the horizon line and then vanishes into the darkness of the night to wandering the lower worlds and later rise again triumphant from the embrace of darkness.

Freemasonry and Catholicism, Max Heindel

"You, Hiram," said Cain, "are destined to die with hopes unfulfilled, but many sons will be born to the widow and keep your memory green through the ages, and at length one will come who is greater than you. You shall not wake till the Lion of Judah raises you with the powerful grip of His paw. This day you have received your BAPTISM OF FIRE, but He shall BAPTIZE YOU WITH WATER AND WITH SPIRIT; you, and every son of the widow, who will come to Him. Greater than Solomon, he will build a new city and a Temple wherein the nations may worship. The Sons of Cain and the Sons of Seth shall there meet in Peace, at the sea of glass. And as Melchisedec, King of Salem (Salem means Peace,) and Priest of God, ministered to Abraham, the father of nations, when mankind was yet in its infancy, so shall this new Light combine in Himself the dual office of King and Priest after the order of Melchisedec. He shall judge the nations with THE LAW OF LOVE and to him that overcometh will be given a White Stone with a name that will serve as passport to the temple. There he may meet the king FACE TO FACE.

Mackey, Symbolism of Freemasonry:

Returning, then, to the acacia, we find that it is capable of three explanations. It is a symbol of immortality, of innocence, and of initiation. But these three significations are closely connected, and that connection must be observed, if we desire to obtain a just interpretation of the symbol. Thus, in this one symbol, we are taught that in the initiation of life, of which the initiation in the third-degree is simply emblematic, innocence must for a time lie in the grave, at length, however, to be called, by the word of the Grand Master of the Universe, to a blissful immortality. Combine with this the recollection of the place where the sprig of acacia was planted, and which I have heretofore shown to be Mount Calvary, the place of sepulture of Him who "brought life and immortality to light," and who, in Christian Masonry, is designated, as he is in Scripture, as "the lion of the tribe of Judah," and remember, too, that in the mystery of his death, the wood of the cross takes the place of the acacia, and in this little and apparently insignificant symbol, but which is really and truly the most important and significant one in masonic science, we have a beautiful suggestion of all the mysteries of life and death, of time and eternity, of the present and of the future. Thus read (and thus all our symbols should be read), Masonry proves something more to its disciples than a mere social society or a charitable association. It becomes a "lamp to our feet," whose spiritual light shines on the darkness of the deathbed, and dissipates the gloomy shadows of the grave.

the Masonic view of the expression "Lion of the tribe of Judah" is used generically to refer to any so-called "savior" of any religion that claims to have one. So don't be deceived by his tactics to try and say that it represents Jesus only.

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Well, with a couple of examples which represents nothing more than the inevitable variations that may be found among Masonic manuals, you have not proved anything. And I have provided ample evidence to show that the only deception on this issue has been on your part, in trying to deny what Masonry clearly and emphatically declares in a multitude of places, that the Lion of the Tribe of Judah is Jesus Christ.

Why a Christian pastor would join, support, promote and defend an organization that makes such blasphemous claims, after knowing that I Timothy 2:5 declares that "there is one God and only one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," is beyond Christian comprehension. It must grieve the Holy Spirit to see this happening and it should appall every genuine follower of Jesus Christ who reads this thread. It is a travesty to the "cloth" and an embarrassment to the Christian faith.

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Still can't resist the personal attacks, I see. They do nothing to help your case--in fact, in light of the way you keep getting your props knocked out from under you, I'd say the personal attacks only serve to make a poor defense look even worse.

lismore · May 11, 2005

Rev Wayne said:
It would be helpful if you could be more specific as to which teachings you refer to.

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/f16.html#incompatible

By taking the Masonic oaths, the Mason is swearing to uphold Masonry and its teachings. Swearing to uphold Masonic oaths is sinful, unscriptural and should not be part of the Christian's life for the following reasons.

They make a Christian man swear by God to doctrines which God has pronounced false and sinful. For example, Masonry teaches a universalist doctrine of "the Fatherhood of God" (John 8:42)
The Christian man is made to swear his acceptance of the lie that salvation, the reward of Heaven, can be gained by main's good works (Ephesians 2:8-9)
The Christian man swears to accept and promote the Masonic lie that Jesus is just one of many equally revered prohets in the world. He does this when agreeing that all religions can lead a man to God (Acts 4:12; Philippians 2:9-11; Colossians 1:16-18)
The Christian man swears he will remain silent in the Lodge and not talk of Christ when God commands every Christian to be a witness (Matthew 28:19)
The Christian man swears that he is approaching the Lodge while he is in spiritual ignorance and moral darkness, when the Bible says that Christians are children of light and are indwelt by the Light of the world (John 8:12; Ephesians 5:8)
By taking the Masonic oath, the Christian is guilty of taking the name of the Lord is vain, because he has sworn unlawfully to things God has forbidden him to swear to. God says He will not leave such a person unpunished (Exodus 20:7)
The Christian falsely swears that the God of the Bible is equally present in all religions (1 Timothy 2:5-6)
The Christian falsely swears to the teaching that true worship can be offered in to Lodge to God without the mediatorship of Jesus (Hebrews 9:14)
By swearing the Masonic oath, Christians are perpetuating a false gospel to other Lodge members who look only to the gospel of Masonry to get them to Heaven (Galatians 1:6-8)
The Christian's spirit, mind and body are the temple of the Holy Spirit, "bought with a price" (1 Corinthians 6:19-20). By taking the Masonic obligations he could be agreeing to allow the polution of his mind and spirit by pagan religion or even occult practices.

Rev Wayne · May 11, 2005

1. "Have we not all one Father? Has not God created us?" Mal. 2:10
"For we are His offspring." Acts 17:28

2. ". . .with a firm reliance on Divine Providence, we shall gain ready admission into that Celestial Lodge above. . ." (Master Mason degree)
"by the merits of the Lion of the tribe of Judah." (Masonic burial rite)

3. Strange, I have no religion but Christianity and have not been asked to surrender it at all. Masonry is my fraternity, it would make a strange religion indeed, with no church, no "worship service," no preacher, no plan of salvation, and no evangelism. Every Mason, "professing his peculiar religion, sanctioned by the laws, by time, and by climate, must needs retain it, and cannot have two religions" (Pike, Morals and Dogma, 161)

Usually, the allegation that Masonry is a separate religion is helped along by one or more blatant falsehoods-for example, the charge that Masonry has its own path to salvation, through the performance of good works. I never met a Mason who believed that, or who would be able to understand how anyone could ever draw such a conclusion.--John Robinson

4. Wrong. Every Mason, by mutual consent, agrees that politics and religion are not subjects for the times Lodge is in session. And Christians, hopefully, can witness with more than their mouths.
"Preach the gospel at all times. If necessary, use words."--Frances of Assisi

5. You have a totally misunderstanding of the meaning behind the ritual. The first three degrees represent a man in the ages of birth, maturity, and death (or youth, maturity, old age). The "candidate in darkness" is simply symbolic of the starting point we all share--being sprung into the world with everything still to be learned--and "light" is symbolic for knowledge and wisdom.

6. I saw nothing in the oaths taken that is "unlawful" or "forbidden" for me as a Christian. Since you have apparently opted to stand in for Serapha on offering specifics, perhaps you could elaborate?

7. First, there is no place any Mason "swears" any such thing. Second, I don't make any declaration of belief in Masonry that is in any way related to what you have just described. Coming together in fraternal relationship with those of other religious beliefs does not require me or any other Mason to subscribe to anything in their belief system at all.

8. I don't "swear to" any "teaching" about worship at all. Masonry "teaches" nothing about how a person should worship at all, that is left up to a person's religion and not their fraternity.

9. How so? Any man in the Lodge knows that I am a Christian, because sooner or later, even the most casual conversation will get around to "what do you do?" I would think "I pastor a church" would be a dead giveaway. But my membership in the Lodge, his membership in the Lodge, how does that alter anything at all from what it would have been had we never met? And having met, I am free to witness to him in any way I choose, just not for that brief time each month, usually not over 2 hours, when Lodge is in session. If you would berate me for that, keep in mind that the average schoolteacher volunatarily enters into a situation where he/she cannot withness to his/her faith for eight hours or more every weekday. Besides, it would be like an interruption to try to witness to someone in the middle of Lodge business or during degree work. The time that I "cannot witness" is for the most part totally irrelevant, since there would not be the opportunity for it during those times anyway.

The whole notion of "can't witness during Lodge" is a misgiven notion at best, and totally absurd, given the nature of the circumstance to which it supposedly applies. Besides, all the men I've met in Lodge so far have been Christians. How do I know? Some of them I see in church. And almost invariably, when they introduce me to others in Lodge, they automatically add by way of introduction, which local church they belong to.

10. I don't go to Lodge to worship, and I certainly don't invite, encourage, or allow any kind of pagan or occult practices in my church. We worship the Lord Jesus Christ in my church, in Spirit and in truth, the Savior who gave His life for me, who is risen and returning as reigning Lord, who is the only-begotten son of the Father in heaven, who through the gift of His precious Holy Spirit has totally and awesomely and forever changed my heart and my life, the one who thought it not robbery to be in the form of God, but taking the form of a servant, became obedient unto death, even the death of the Cross, for which reason the Father has highly exalted Him, and given Him the name above all names, the name at which every knee shall bow and every tongue confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father

cwebber · May 11, 2005

They make a Christian man swear by God to doctrines which God has pronounced false and sinful. For example, Masonry teaches a universalist doctrine of "the Fatherhood of God" (John 8:42)

HMMMMM! to swear to take care of People, how is this Doctrine that God would not aprove of?

The Christian man is made to swear his acceptance of the lie that salvation, the reward of Heaven, can be gained by main's good works (Ephesians 2:8-9)

First show me were Freemasonry says Works will get you into Heaven. I can show you were Freemaosnry states you must be without Sin to goto Heaven and the Works Salvation will not get you there

A Direct Quote from Frand Lodge FAQs:

39. Do Masons believe that by doing good works they can gain admittance to heaven?
No. The admittance into heaven falls in the realm of the spiritual, not the fraternal.

The Christian man swears to accept and promote the Masonic lie that Jesus is just one of many equally revered prohets in the world. He does this when agreeing that all religions can lead a man to God (Acts 4:12; Philippians 2:9-11; Colossians 1:16-18)

York Rite you declare that Jesus Christ is your Lord and Savior before you can even petition the Knight's Templars

The Christian man swears he will remain silent in the Lodge and not talk of Christ when God commands every Christian to be a witness (Matthew 28:19)

You must be talking about a different or clandestain Lodge because no one Swears not to talk about Religion or Politics thou they are asked not to.

But again in the York Rite of Freemasonry you are told to go out and Spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ because it is you Duty to do so.

Masonic Templarism, unlike the preceding degrees of Masonry that a York Rite Mason has come through, is not multi-denominational. While Freemasonry prides itself to being open to all that believe in a Supreme Being, the Chivalric Degrees are a Christian order of Knighthood and the candidate for admission in them must profess a belief in the doctrine of the Holy Trinity. To this end a common motto of the order is "Every Christian Mason should be a Knight Templar."

The Christian man swears that he is approaching the Lodge while he is in spiritual ignorance and moral darkness, when the Bible says that Christians are children of light and are indwelt by the Light of the world (John 8:12; Ephesians 5:8)

Again what have you been reading No swearing that I was in spiritual ignorance or moral darkness, thou I did from a lack of knowledge about Freemaosnry to a knowledge there of. Or from Ignorance (Darkness) of Freemaosnry to Knowledge (Light) of Freemaosnry.

By taking the Masonic oath, the Christian is guilty of taking the name of the Lord is vain, because he has sworn unlawfully to things God has forbidden him to swear to. God says He will not leave such a person unpunished (Exodus 20:7)

What has God said I should not swear to for I have not swore. I have only done as Paul did "As God as my Witness" And I hope that He would punish me for breaking my Promise that Freemasonry tells me to put the Duty I owe to God above all others.

The Christian falsely swears that the God of the Bible is equally present in all religions (1 Timothy 2:5-6)

Really? where?

The Christian falsely swears to the teaching that true worship can be offered in to Lodge to God without the mediatorship of Jesus (Hebrews 9:14)

Agian Where? I do know that many Churches have started in MAsonic Lodges such as the Biggest Church in Texas

By swearing the Masonic oath, Christians are perpetuating a false gospel to other Lodge members who look only to the gospel of Masonry to get them to Heaven (Galatians 1:6-8)

Again Where? Freemaosnry declares that it and Works can not get you to Heaven. Please show me were it states other wise?

The Christian's spirit, mind and body are the temple of the Holy Spirit, "bought with a price" (1 Corinthians 6:19-20). By taking the Masonic obligations he could be agreeing to allow the polution of his mind and spirit by pagan religion or even occult practices.

You do know were the Lessons of Freemasonry come from don't you. The Holy Bible.

1 Cor. Ch13
2 Peter
Psalms 133
Judges 12:6
Kings 7
Amos 7
Ecc
Isa
Matt Ch 7

And that is just a few many many more

O.F.F. · May 13, 2005

cwebber said:
HMMMMM! to swear to take care of People, how is this Doctrine that God would not aprove of?

God would not approve because of the following portion of the oath YOU took as a "Holy Royal Arch Mason" in the so-called "Christian" York Rite of Freemasonry:

. . .I furthermore promise and swear, that I will employ a Companion Royal Arch Mason in preference to any other person of equal qualifications,

I furthermore promise and swear, that I will assist a Companion Royal Arch Mason when I see him engaged in any difficulty, and will espouse his cause so far as to extricate him from the same, whether he be right or wrong.

I furthermore promise and swear, that I will keep all the secrets of a Companion Royal Arch Mason (when communicated so me as such, or I knowing them to be such), without exceptions.

I furthermore promise and swear, that I will be aiding and assisting all poor and indigent Companions Royal Arch Masons, their widows and orphans, wheresoever dispersed around the globe; . . .

Yeah, you swore to take care of people all right, you swore to take care of fellow Masons and their families over any other. Therefore, it is reasonable to expect that means over other Christians too, particularly if they are not Masons.

As the above quote of your Godless, unethical oath states you swore to:

1. Show favoritism in hiring practices, which is against the law according to the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission.

2. Support a Mason's cause, even if he is right or wrong.

3. Keep the secrets of fellow Masons without exception, which means even if he murdered someone you would help conceal his crime of homicide.

So, in effect you made a commitment to sin against God, if necessary, on behalf of fellow Masons. Show me in the Bible where God approves of this unethical, immoral behavior for Christians!

cwebber said:
"Masonic Templarism, unlike the preceding degrees of Masonry that a York Rite Mason has come through, is not multi-denominational. While Freemasonry prides itself to being open to all that believe in a Supreme Being, the Chivalric Degrees are a Christian order of Knighthood and the candidate for admission in them must profess a belief in the doctrine of the Holy Trinity. To this end a common motto of the order is "Every Christian Mason should be a Knight Templar."

Belief in the doctrine of the Holy Trinity by itself doesn't make one a Christian. If this is all the York Rite requires, than they are way off the mark. There are a lot more essential doctrines that one must believe in order to be a Christian, so this requirement is shallow and meaningless without the rest. And, since they would be required to keep the above oath in the process of becoming a Knight, then their profession of faith is in vain. For God would not want anyone to make a commitment to sin for any reason.

Rev Wayne · May 14, 2005

Yeah, you swore to take care of people all right, you swore to take care of fellow Masons and their families over any other. Therefore, it is reasonable to expect that means over other Christians too, particularly if they are not Masons.

Another way in which the church may learn from the lodge to make membership mean something is by mutual helpfulness. Those who know anything about Freemasonry at all know that it stands for mutual helpfulness among its members. A poor, distressed Mason may call on a brother Mason for assistance, and that brother is under solemn obligation to assist the one in distress to the full extent of his power. I was speaking to a brother Mason, who is also a brother minister, on this very point this morning, and he said: "If you were to come to me in the middle of the night seeking assistance, I should get up without hesitation and help you because you are a brother Mason. If you were not a Mason I would help you because you are a brother in the Lord. But, the general run of church members do not assist their fellow church members as Masons assist fellow Masons." We all know that this is true.--J.G. Hughes, pastor of South Broadh Street Baptist Church, Rome, Georgia, "Freemasonry and the Church"

The strange thing is that you criticize Masons for implementing Christian principles. The Christian standard is "Let us do good unto all people, especially those of the household of faith." (Gal. 6:10)

This principle is often expressed as "Charity begins in the home."

Southern colloquial expression renders it "Take care of your own first."

The ramifications of it are simple. What kind of charity would it be if a group gave to help someone outside their fellowship while someone within their ranks was starving?

I'd say it's a solid principle no matter what group one is speaking of. In the case of Masons, I would say to their credit also that they have the emphasis exactly where God has it, when they emphasize the verse, "Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world." (James 1:27)

I am thankful also that I serve a church with an emphasis on such giving, both nationally and locally. Nationally, UMCOR (United Methodist Committee on Relief) helps worldwide in coordinating disaster relief. Locally, just last Sunday we had one of two special offerings per year in our conference, the Mother's Day love offering, that go towards supporting the Epworth Children's Home in Columbia. On a district level, our churches band together to support Habitat for Humanity ministries. On a local level, we contribute to various needs by both direct benevolence and donation to Total Ministries, a Spartanburg-based local charity.

Church members here have declared the same thing to me that I have always emphasized in principle: before the larger ministries receive support from us, we take care to ensure that local needs are addressed first.

You have continually tried to quote Scripture to Masons on various issues, so I assume you must feel biblical principles are important. Why do you now reverse yourself and criticize us when we follow clear scriptural principles?

Rev Wayne · May 14, 2005

1. Show favoritism in hiring practices, which is against the law according to the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission.

So what will you say to the same practice when it is Christian preferment? I have known quite a few employers who have shown such preferment. Several years ago, when I first went to seminary, I loaded up every single item I possessed in an old Starsky & Hutch Gran Torino and drove off to Kentucky, where I unloaded box after box from the car, mostly heavy books, and walked up the stairs to the third-floor room I was assigned. Immediately after doing so, I went to the office and discovered that all the loan help and work-study job I had lined up prior to arrival, had fallen through the cracks. I was told, basically, unless you can come up with a job and show us on good faith that you will be able to take care of this bill, we cannot enroll you. And then the real bombshell: "you have two days." I was devastated.

My first impulse was to go load everything back up and drive home. But when I got back to the room, I fell to my knees instead and prayed one of the strangest prayers (for me, anyway) I have ever prayed. It was basically, "Lord, this was your doing, not mine. You led me here, if you want me to stay here, then it's up to you, not me, and I put it in your hands."

I got up the next morning and went to the jobs office on campus and told the director there what I faced and the time constraint. He said he had little to work with in that small amount of time, all he could suggest was that I go drive through nearby Nicholasville, drive up the main strip through town, and keep an eye peeled for a "help wanted" sign at the fast food places and grocery stores, which would be the only places likely to hire me on such short notice. I went all the way through town without seeing any signs and without feeling led to stop at any of the many places I saw. Just as I was about to reach the end of the strip, my eyes were drawn to a Winn-Dixie store, the last building on the street. Something about it felt right, so I stopped. I asked the manager at the desk if I could fill out an application, he said sure, and began looking for the application booklet. After searching around for a few minutes without turning it up, he finally got exasperated and said, "Never mind that, we'll find that later and take care of the paperwork. You're hired for the stock crew, you'll start tomorrow." When he told me the hours I would work, and the pay scale, it was no surprise to me to discover that it was just enough to take care of my tuition and expenses.

It wasn't until later that I found out that the manager of the store, as a matter of personal preference, hired Christians before anybody else, and more especially, that he sought out students from the seminary as his primary targets for hiring. After putting this matter in God's hands and following His leading, I found out that He couldn't have possibly led me to a place more favorable for being hired. It was one of the most tremendous boosts I have ever received to my faith.
That being the case, I find it impossible to criticize any manager or personnel director who has a "Christians preferred" policy. The one I became acquainted with in that instance was truly a tool in the hands of God. I know of quite a great many others who will hire Christians before any other person., simply because they know they have greater dependability. I daresay it is probably done on an even larger scale than it is practiced among Masons--for one thing, there are far more of them. So I would find it hypocritical to denounce a practice among Masons that I do not criticize among Christians.

2. Support a Mason's cause, even if he is right or wrong.

Well, you seem to read the oath differently. All I saw was a promise to come to the rescue if you saw him in trouble. The wording was,

I will assist a Companion Royal Arch Mason when I see him engaged in any difficulty, and will espouse his cause so far as to extricate him from the same, whether he be right or wrong.

Had the oath not included that phrase, I would not have been comfortable with it either. But since it says nothing about the handling of the matter once the "difficulty" is over, I assume the "right and wrong" part of the matter may be addressed after the fact. Without any specifics mentioned as to the nature of the "difficulty," it appears to be some situation in which assistance would be primary and urgent, and thus take priority over determining who is at fault. Otherwise I might find myself hesitating to help someone being triple-teamed in a fight while I ask him first, "What did you do to them?"

3. Keep the secrets of fellow Masons without exception, which means even if he murdered someone you would help conceal his crime of homicide.

I'm sure there's a name for the logical fallacy of your argument, I just am not familiar with it. It appears to be a parallel of the reductio ad absurdum, because it really is a bizzarre bit of logic to immediately jump to a worst case scenario and criticize on that basis (perhaps that's simply more of a straw man or a red herring).

In similar arguments, I have seen statements posted in response, from Masonic laws that exempt unlawful behavior from the oath, particularly more heinous offenses. Your information seems to be lacking on the matter, I should think you would know better. It is very similar to my profession, there are things I get told that cannot be revealed to anyone, at risk of lawsuits. Yet at the same time, we are told that if anyone reports to us information that a crime of a sexual or abusive or violent or unlawful nature has been committed, we are under obligation by law to report it, despite pastoral confidentiality.

So, in effect you made a commitment to sin against God, if necessary, on behalf of fellow Masons.

Again, an accusation of straw, and one on which I'm sure you have better information than you demonstrate.

Show me in the Bible where God approves of this unethical, immoral behavior for Christians!

My, my, your presuppositions are showing, and they don't seem to be any different than we've been suggesting all along. You have just moved from making a statement about Masons, to making a challenge concerning what God approves of in Christians!

But don't sweat it, Mike, it's like we've told you all along, in a country that is so overwhelmingly Christian by majority, it's an easy assumption to make that most Masons are probably Christians too.

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