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Did you forget what Jesus said in the Gospels about these ones, and in general about the educated ones ?
Even more important, who did Jesus say, who does Jesus say, Yahuweh reveals salvation to, and who does Yahuweh hide it from ?
But you forgot what He did to Paul, and what He required of Paul, and what Paul said clearly - He had to consider all the education he had received, the best anywhere, as dung! He had to renounce it, because it had led him to persecute the believers and to have faith in himself instead of in Yahuweh....I remember what Jesus said about one of the educated ones, to Paul. 'You are my chosen instrument to carry my word to the gentiles'. That same Paul also said 'Study to show yourself approved'. God Bless
Informed knowledge from who?
Do you believe God inspired the apostles?
I wasn't trying to be unfriendly just a little tongue and cheek to illustrate the point.Lol.... of course you can ask questions. I ask all the time but I will leave it at that. You reply didn’t come across to me as very friendly so thanks anyway.
My It feels very much like a "Sunday Show".
It has been said before, but it doesn't appear that you understood: The "institutional model" is not based on the physical venue of meetings.
The first congregation of Jerusalem was of the "institutional model" despite the fact that they had no specific physical venue. They all understood who their doctrinal and functional leadership was, who were the designated servants to the congregation, et cetera.
Being an "institution" has nothing to do with owning a venue.
Being underground does not mean it lacks cohesive organization or hierarchy.
Maybe I'm missing it, but I don't see an answer to my question - whether you see a place for authority.
I agree with your perspective. Church and not the NFL may be the biggest spectator sport on Sundays. I find it interesting that institutional churches, for the most part, no matter how large or small are bent on increasing attendance numbers. However, when we study Jesus' ministry the number of disciples who continued to follow him decreased in numbers as time went on as Jesus made clear the cost of following him. Most were not willing to take up their crosses and follow him and thus followed him no more. How drastic a difference today with the seeker-friendly model and little or no challenge to take up their crosses, overcome and persevere. We in our orthodoxy proclaim the priesthood of all believers but in our orthopraxy mostly depend on pastors to be our high priests.My family and I have been attending house church for almost 14 years. The number of attendees can vary. However, it's typically at least 4 to 5 families and a few individual attendees.
We begin by joining hands at 6:30pm and praying together. We then move to the kitchen and take a seat at the table and have a full meal together. During the meal, we have "Jesus stories", which can be testimonies, reflections on what we're studying individually, questions, praise reports, prayer requests, etc. As the meal is drawn to a close, the elder (typically the host, but not always) will bless the loaf of bread and the cup of wine (typically grape juice). The bread is passed as we pray and search our hearts. The cup is then passed and we consume via intinction. This concludes the Lord's Supper. We all help clean up and move down to the finished basement for study. We all sit comfortably together and share songs, praise offerings, poems, and devotional practices. The elder then opens the Scriptures and shares a passage and thoughts that the Lord has laid upon his heart. Then, as a group, we discuss the passage, experiences, relevance, and issues surrounding the topic together. This discussion based teaching is led and guided by the elder. Depending on the message a time of reflection, confession, prayer, and repentance follows. We pray for one another and listen to confessions as people repent of sin, often deep and painful hidden sin. We also allow people to confess and become open about hidden pain and bitterness due to abuse, neglect, being wronged, defrauded, or mistreated. Often this was done at the hands of a parent, pastor, relative, teacher, work, boss, or church. We pray and often allow the person to cry it out, get it behind them, and minister to their pain. If it is confessed sin, we help them overcome the guilt, shame, and work to restore them. If they have wronged someone, we assist with helping them come up with a manner of apology or a manner through which to provide restitution. It is far more than a general altar call in any church I've ever attended where dozens, hundreds, or thousands come forward to pray about who knows what and then just go home.
The joy of house churching is the smaller size and extremely low cost. The size allows for a deeply personal experience and deep personal growth. The low cost facilitates greater ability to share possessions and resources to assist every member with the needs that arise in their lives. The lack of expensive and time consuming programs allow us to partner with members (Helping Hands Ministry) to schedule time to go out and volunteer at local charities, shelters, food pantries, etc. It also allows us to coordinate efforts to assist the elderly in our neighborhoods, community clean up of street areas and parks in our neighborhood, and assist people with projects as simple as moderately intensive yard work, painting, moving, etc.
Having attended institutional churches until I was 30, I can say the previous 14 years in the house church movement have been far more personal, rewarding, and spiritually enriching. I've visited institutional churches on occasion throughout these years, seeing that I have many friends and family who still attend institutional churches. I can't help but admit, it's a system. A program. An incorporated body providing little "personal" spiritual care. And the bigger the congregation, the more one is simply lost in the crowd. It feels very much like a "Sunday Show"...
Hello Swordman. I was involved in House Churches at two points in my life. Although there were some good times I would say this form of church has significant, if not fatal issues. No-one I was involved with in a House Fellowship is still in one.
Say what you wish about 'Institutional Church'. It has a proven track record.
Within the church there is scope for a lot of other activities and fellowship, a worship service can be the keynote of the week but a dozen other meetings can be used to include everyone. For example, in my church we have a meeting on Thursday evening, a club for adults with learning difficulties, providing fun activities with spiritual input for them, I'm one of the helpers at that. One guy with Down's Syndrome recently made a commitment to Christ through the club. Within the 'Institutional Church' model you can be creative and do all sorts of wonderful things. If you have an idea speak to your pastor, if he's a true believer he will support you in your work for the Lord.
As for someone being trained and ordained to give sermons. When you go to the dentist you want your dentist to be qualified, you wouldn't let any Joe Soap start fiddling with your teeth. Why let any Joe Soap fiddle with your soul? That was one of my issues with the House Church movement- self appointed and sometimes unsuitable persons pushing themselves forward to pontificate over the lives of others.
It is indeed a journey into the wilderness accompanied by loneliness as a companion as I'm still walking that road for almost two decades. Not many share the same perspective as what we have been traditionally taught about church/body and how it is to function becomes ingrained into our thinking and any challenge to that notion creates cognitive dissonance which is difficult to overcome. Welcome to the journey.I seek others who wish to prepare and set out into that wilderness, without the religious crutches of churchianity, so that we together may see what we're made of. I seek those who also strive to grow up into giants. Saying "amen" as one voice among a sea of faces is something I personally prefer to step out of by connecting with those in that sea who seek to do greater things for the Lord, and to grow accordingly without having to join up with one of the many splinter/schisms in order to give lip service of agreement to gain "ordination" assumed to be completely biblical in nature. When the Lord's work does not afford me the time nor opportunity to remain a face among so many as an audience, then it is what it is.
Jr
A) I despise the seeker friendly modelI agree with your perspective. Church and not the NFL may be the biggest spectator sport on Sundays. I find it interesting that institutional churches, for the most part, no matter how large or small are bent on increasing attendance numbers. However, when we study Jesus' ministry the number of disciples who continued to follow him decreased in numbers as time went on as Jesus made clear the cost of following him. Most were not willing to take up their crosses and follow him and thus followed him no more. How drastic a difference today with the seeker-friendly model and little or no challenge to take up their crosses, overcome and persevere. We in our orthodoxy proclaim the priesthood of all believers but in our orthopraxy mostly depend on pastors to be our high priests.
Yes they are not the same but the institutional church tends to equate or favor the numbers/attendance game with building the kingdom instead of making true disciples which are much smaller in numbers. A kingdom without disciples is no kingdom at all.A) I despise the seeker friendly model
2) there is a difference between discipling and kingdom building. There is some overlap, but they are not the same.
Can't argue with that except to say I know of a few exceptions.Yes they are not the same but the institutional church tends to equate or favor the numbers/attendance game with building the kingdom instead of making true disciples which are much smaller in numbers. A kingdom without disciples is no kingdom at all.
Yes they are not the same but the institutional church tends to equate or favor the numbers/attendance game with building the kingdom instead of making true disciples which are much smaller in numbers. A kingdom without disciples is no kingdom at all.
When I refer to the "institutional model," I'm addressing the very model expressed throughout the Western hemisphere and Europe with groupings that have and support the luxury of a special purpose facility, and who pay (which includes the smaller ones that don't) a professional staff, and who collectively practice a liturgical style of meeting with the "laity" sitting in pews and/or chairs as an audience, and the main focus being on the individual(s) who is (are) viewed as the top level authority over the meeting and what's cast out from the sound system to the audience.
What they did in Jerusalem has no real bearing on how I view the meeting of believers. Those people in Jerusalem were also "zealous for the Law." Do you identify with that as well? I don't. Paul, THE apostle to us Gentiles, spoke nothing in his epistles that causes me to assume that the institutional model is built upon the scriptures in such a way that anyone can intellectually build that model up as superior to any and all others.
Some fantastic thinkers have come in here and pointed out that it's not so much a model as it is the hearts, and those hearts set upon the Lord. THAT is what I was waiting to see and hear from folks as a confirmation of what I was thinking at the outset.
Then you have a different definition for that term, which is fine. I'm glad you made an effort to explain your take on it, which is fine. Any one of us can even identify and define things as we see fit. We all have that freedom. I defined my meaning for the use of that terminology so that we can hopefully get past the semantic gymnastics as a stumbling block to meaningful discussion.
Ok. I agree. No problems there. Given that the scriptures declare that we're all on equal footing, but with differing functions within the body, it would be interesting to see how a system of hierarchy would pan out among the many, many mature believers throughout the (C)hurch were it to go underground. Perpetual sheepdom appears to be a remnant of the historic, institutional model as a defining paradigm within its four walls, even in modern times. I personally don't subscribe to that man-made paradigm foisted upon professing believers by group after group of men who seem to lack something vital to leading the (C)hurch into being a mighty army against the ensuing darkness.
Now, please, nobody take that wrong. I'm not saying that all institutional model leaders are power hungry. If you are content with sitting in a chair or pew for 70+ years of your life as a layman, then go for it. I'm not here to try and oust you from what you have grown accustomed. You might even scrub toilets in the facility for free, and/or mow the lawn and repaint the cross up on the steeple with even brighter white paint. Cool. Go for it. A servant's heart is an important part of the population of professing believers.
I seek others who wish to prepare and set out into that wilderness, without the religious crutches of churchianity, so that we together may see what we're made of. I seek those who also strive to grow up into giants. Saying "amen" as one voice among a sea of faces is something I personally prefer to step out of by connecting with those in that sea who seek to do greater things for the Lord, and to grow accordingly without having to join up with one of the many splinter/schisms in order to give lip service of agreement to gain "ordination" assumed to be completely biblical in nature. When the Lord's work does not afford me the time nor opportunity to remain a face among so many as an audience, then it is what it is.
In relation to the OP, I simply took exception to the idea that what the majority does is somehow magically superior to all others simply because of its antiquity. That fallacy seems to have been accepted for far too long.
Jr
The New Testament Way to Meet
Compare/contrast models like this fail to take into account the many and varied social, political and even spiritual differences the Early Church faced as compared to what the Church today faces.Our Modern Way of Meeting
Absolutely. However, what I would ask of you is how you define "authority" in relation to the (C)hurch?
I think earlier you asked me do I believe the apostles were inspired by God? I think scripture is inspired by God I can’t say to what extent that is..... I do however have a question about this authority you are taking about. When you say a place for authority do you mean as in someone, or a group of people who get to decide what interpretation of scripture is correct?Maybe I'm missing it, but I don't see an answer to my question - whether you see a place for authority.
You are of course free to believe what you will however i find your claims to be speculative. The gospels and epistles were extant and to claim that doctrine/theology was not yet fully developed and formalized is to detract from the basic, simple gospel message and implies that the early church from a foundational aspect didn't really know what to believe and how to behave from the standpoint of orthodoxy and orthopraxy.
Scripture makes it clear that the true outward evidence of one's inward faith is by the fruits of one's life. In 326 AD, Constantine had his eldest son Crispus, seized and put to death by “cold poison”. The same year he had his second wife Fausta killed by leaving her to die in an over-heated bath. Do these murders appear to be good fruit and the mark of a genuine believer to you? Not to me.
A genuine believer does not kill his own family as Constantine did to his oldest son Crispus and his second wife Fausta. Delaying baptism amounts to disobeying the command to be baptized. For both of these reasons, cast doubts on Constantine's supposed conversion.
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