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I don’t know for sure and if I don’t know for sure neither does the person I’m asking. I’m not saying I don’t talk to people about scripture but I do not take others peoples on opinions as truth. I do the best I can knowing I’m not certain.How do you know it's the Holy Spirit speaking to you and not your own head?
Paul clearly shifts around between synagogues, homes and public speaking areas. It all depends on what was available and the relative safety involved. Clearly Paul wasn't afraid to speak publicly, he was beaten up on a number of occasions.
I do agree it's the duty of believers to be part of the body of Christ and that is the church. There are obvious circumstances where that isn't possible. In North Korea, for example, it isn't safe to worship in public. However, most of us are in the US or somewhere else in the west. We don't have that problem. All of us should be part of the church, working to further his Kingdom within it. I fear too many American Christians have gotten far too individually minded when it comes to faith and the church. It's all about us as individuals as opposed to Christ and the church. I dare say many modern hymns and praise songs bare this out.
Loopholes? I’m not following why that even came up. I was just pointing out that Jesus said the Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth. So did he mean all or some and the rest you can get from other teachers? I’m genuinely asking your opinion. I didn’t join the forums to be mean or rude. So hearing what others think is helpful to me because I love getting an understanding of why others think what they think.Are looking to follow Jesus' example, or are you looking for loopholes?
Perhaps the institutional model should prepare for its eventual demise once groupings in government like the Hag Squad get their way by doing away with religious freedoms in America, institutional (c)hurches will eventually pay taxes like all other businesses, and public expression of faith (by true Christians) will be outlawed. The underground model will once again become a necessity if we are to see current sentiments and events as indicators.
Jr
Thank you! This is the kinda response that actually is useful and quite loving so I appreciate it. I just know there was a statement made by Jesus so I asked a question. One person who responded seemed kinda rude and another asked if I was looking for a loophole. You explained your thoughts in a loving way so thank you.The "you" of Jesus' statement was plural. That doesn't show through in the English because there is no formal English pluralized you (we ought to formalize "y'all").
Because Americans are born members of the cult of individualism, we tend to read a singular "you" whenever possible, but Jesus was clearly speaking to a group at this time.
While listening to AFR (American Family Radio) yesterday, the program at the time had some dudes talking about the alleged superiority of the institutional model compared to meeting in homes, out in a park, coffee shop, a forest, et al. I numbered my the points for ease of reference.
Some points they made were the following:
1) They assumed that the orchestrated form of what they call "corporate worship" is itself superior.
2) They assumed that historic and the modern sermon (teaching, rhetoric) is superior to merely meeting and sharing with others, in that to do so any grouping needs to be overseen by one who is "ordained" by some man-made institution of higher learning.
3) They assumed that the exercise of authority within the institutional model is itself superior.
4) They assumed that the "praise" within the institutional model is superior.
5) They assumed, in conclusion, that the alleged "overall fellowship" within the institutional model offers superior diversity and overall quality.
So, what are your thoughts on these points? Can everyone here step outside the confining boxes of their biased thinking and apply a critical analysis of the claims?
Now, unless you have actually lived out both models, your input may be viewed as suspect if such bias becomes evident. What I'm looking for is an experiential analysis of the claims from different perspectives. Having been hurt within either of the two models isn't an address of the actual points provided. That is the "bias" I'd like to avoid in order to see if folks can actually step back and address ONLY the merits of the claims.
If you are so pro-institutional in your thinking that you've never even given thought to other expressions, types, models, forms, content, or anything else that deviates away from the iron-fisted choke-hold of some ecclesiastical model you've grown up with, then your input will be, as indicated, suspect and of no real value to answering the questions asked.
Group-think is mostly an exercise of blind indifference to the full expanse of human experience that is far too vast to be so simplistically defined down to such a low level of constrained intellect. If other models offend you, then perhaps it would be better that you simply lurk about rather than offering anything as input. I'm not looking for debate that eventually degrades to a level of ad hominem, but rather level-headed discussion about the merits of the claims and counter-claims.
Jr
Loopholes? I’m not following why that even came up. I was just pointing out that Jesus said the Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth. So did he mean all or some and the rest you can get from other teachers? I’m genuinely asking your opinion. I didn’t join the forums to be mean or rude. So hearing what others think is helpful to me because I love getting an understanding of why others think what they think.
I don’t know for sure and if I don’t know for sure neither does the person I’m asking. I’m not saying I don’t talk to people about scripture but I do not take others peoples on opinions as truth. I do the best I can knowing I’m not certain.
Your OP has the feel of a polemic and doesn't align to my experiences of the institutional church to which I belong. Further, my experience has been that seeker and home church people make a lot of errant assumptions about what those in institutional churches believe.
If you're actually interested in a discussion about institutional churches, the assumptions being made on both sides of that discussion could kill this before we even get started. So, I would ask, per item #3: What do you think is the place of authority within Christianity?
Resha, it was members of the institutional model who made those statements. All I did was relay their verbalized thoughts for what they were....assumptions. They presented no hard evidences, just informal discussion sprinkled with verses they thought legitimized their thoughts on the matter. The eisegetical nature of their talk was quite evident, and is the case in a number of the posts in this thread. It's always a VERY strong tendency for many to inject/force upon scriptures modern and historic experience for models. Doing so helps them feel better about their support and expenditures of energy for such. There are warm fuzzies aplenty for all on both sides of this that will help preserve them from being shaken to the point of reexamination since we all tend to be deeply rooted in our thinking and beliefs. Many even look upon antiquity as a substantiating evidence for the legitimacy of what they have chosen to be a part.
My prime take on it all is that there is a Lord over it all who can and does use anything He so chooses to His glory, whether it be in line with His desires for us, or not. People the world over take great pride in the things they choose to support as being right and aligned with their personal understanding of scripture, or the understanding taught to them by someone they have chosen to admire. What matters to me the most are the thoughts and ways of God.
Yes, it is indeed written that His ways and thoughts are above ours as the heavens are above the earth. Personally, I continually ask the Lord for His thoughts and His ways, regardless of their being so far above our own. Nowhere did the Lord reveal that asking for His thoughts and ways is futile. I believe He gives them to those who dare to ask, and to the measure He sees fit that we can handle. What a magnificent Lord and God!
I never said you have to meditate it about it on your own. I ask people tons of questions to get an idea of what others think. Do I take any other persons thoughts, interpretation or opinion as the truth of God? No, I don’t. So I do the best I can. Do you think I should take other peoples opinions or interpretation as the truth, knowing it’s possibme they could be wrong? Do you do that?OK. But it doesn't sound that way. It sounds like you're looking for loopholes. For example ...
For example, the above quote. You're assuming no one knows better than you, which is simply not true. Paul knew better than Timothy, and so Paul taught Timothy. Part of that teaching included instructions for developing church leaders.
Further, John instructed us to test the spirits. It's good to be honest and say when you don't know, but if no one knows then God has broken his promise. Therefore, if people are claiming to be led by the Spirit, we need to test what they say. I don't see anywhere were he are told to test the spirits by meditating about it on our own.
And to be completely honest the reason we have faith and need to believe is because no one is certain. That’s what faith and belief is all about. If we were all certain there’s no need to believe it have faith. We would know for sure and therefore could show everybody else in which they would know for sure.OK. But it doesn't sound that way. It sounds like you're looking for loopholes. For example ...
For example, the above quote. You're assuming no one knows better than you, which is simply not true. Paul knew better than Timothy, and so Paul taught Timothy. Part of that teaching included instructions for developing church leaders.
Further, John instructed us to test the spirits. It's good to be honest and say when you don't know, but if no one knows then God has broken his promise. Therefore, if people are claiming to be led by the Spirit, we need to test what they say. I don't see anywhere were he are told to test the spirits by meditating about it on our own.
No.And to be completely honest the reason we have faith and need to believe is because no one is certain. That’s what faith and belief is all about. If we were all certain there’s no need to believe it have faith. We would know for sure and therefore could show everybody else in which they would know for sure.
Faith is having trust or confidence in something. Would I say I have faith that I am typing right now? No I wouldn’t say that because I’m certain that I am. If you have to use the word faith or believe than that means you are not certain. And that’s ok. We take a lot of things on faith every day. Nothing wrong with a believer admitting that they cannot be a 100% certain. Remember when Jesus said “you believe because you have seen, blessed are those who believe but haven’t seen.”No.
Jesus knew perfectly, and most people could not be shown by Jesus , because most people loved darkness and rejected the Light.
So much more for us, still, today.
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of what we hope for ...
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of what we hope for and the certainty of what we do not see.
Now faith is assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of things not seen.
i.e. faith is certain. Else our lives believing in Jesus are for nought......
We are lights in the world , but the world still rejects the LIGHT, because its deeds (and lives) are evil..... Therefore few can be shown, few find the narrow road to life....
2) They assumed that historic and the modern sermon (teaching, rhetoric) is superior to merely meeting and sharing with others, in that to do so any grouping needs to be overseen by one who is "ordained" by some man-made institution of higher learning.
I choose to have faith in Yahuweh by faith through grace in Yahushua, and I am certain with no doubt nor wavering for decades now, unto eternal life.If you have to use the word faith or believe than that means you are not certain.
Ummm..... everyone, and perhaps thus every institution, is judged by their own deeds and words. That so-called proven track record , when seen in the Light of Jesus and Scripture, is like the dark middle ages when people had no hope within the institutions that were in power.Say what you wish about 'Institutional Church'. It has a proven track record.
I never said you have to meditate it about it on your own. I ask people tons of questions to get an idea of what others think.
Do I take any other persons thoughts, interpretation or opinion as the truth of God?
Faith is having trust or confidence in something. Would I say I have faith that I am typing right now? No I wouldn’t say that because I’m certain that I am. If you have to use the word faith or believe than that means you are not certain. And that’s ok. We take a lot of things on faith every day. Nothing wrong with a believer admitting that they cannot be a 100% certain. Remember when Jesus said “you believe because you have seen, blessed are those who believe but haven’t seen.”
Did you forget what Jesus said in the Gospels about these ones, and in general about the educated ones ?As for someone being trained and ordained to give sermons.
I choose to have faith as well. But as far other humans beige go I don’t have much faith and that’s ok. I’m going to do the best I can. Thanks for your response. Your faith is pretty awesome! I like seeing what you have to say on topics!I choose to have faith in Yahuweh by faith through grace in Yahushua, and I am certain with no doubt nor wavering for decades now, unto eternal life.
I did not have to use the word faith, nor did I have to have faith, no one forced me to.
Sheer grace though, as I sought the truth, and keep seeking, I found it, as the Creator Promises. He is absolutely faithful and true, and much more honest and totally reliable, unlike those things that can be seen, which will perish.
Informed knowledge from who?I'm not talking about just "people" in general. Let me ask you this: Do you believe God inspired the apostles?
Nor am I speaking of opinion. I'm speaking of informed knowledge.
I was going to quote you the exact verse @yeshuaslavejeff quoted (Hebrews 11:1) as well as 1 John 5:13, but it appears we have bigger issues here. The Bible tells you what faith is, and you're denying that, saying, "No that's not it. Faith is something else."
Of course everyone has doubts from time to time. But those doubts don't leave one without hope - without a renewal of assurance.
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