The Acts 15 Decree

mark kennedy · May 16, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
Yes Paul is probably my favorite apostle although I’m really surprised that Barnabas was not named as an apostle. Perhaps he joined after Jesus’ ministry. I’m curious whatever became of Mathias? To my knowledge I don’t recall him doing anything after being named as an apostle that is recorded in the scriptures.

Mathias went out and ministered like the other Apostles, he is said to have numbered in the original 120 selected by Jesus to preach the gospel early in his ministry. Barnabas was supposedly among the 70, called for the same purpose only a little earlier. Barnabas is referred to as an apostle, a lot the same way church planting ministries are often called apostolic:

But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of this, they tore their clothes and rushed out into the crowd, shouting: “Friends, why are you doing this? We too are only human, like you. (Acts 14:14,15)

Now the 12 are distinctive, they hold a unique office to this day in the courts of heaven. One day they will rule over the twelve tribes of Israel.

mark kennedy · May 16, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
I don’t see any conclusive evidence that Peter started either church in the scriptures. The churches themselves claim that Peter was the one who established them. I just don’t see the point in calling them a liar without any evidence.

On the day of Pentecost there were Jews of the Dispersion from all points on the compass, one of those places was Rome. The story goes a handful of believing Jews go back to Rome and establish a church. When Paul writes the church at Rome he had still not visited them, and at that point I doubt Peter had either. At one point the Jews are expelled from Rome, two of them, Ananias and Sapphira encounter Paul at Corinth after being expelled from Rome. They become Paul's ministry partners in Ephesus that became the mother church to the churches of Asian Minor. What implications this might have for Roman Catholics I do not know but there was a pretty important church in Rome. What happened to Gentile believers after the Jews were exiled is hard to say but by all accounts the church started there under the preaching of Peter, endured, and endures to this day.

If you do a little basic math the inclusion of the Gentiles happens 8 years after the ascension of Jesus. After Paul is converted, actually receiving the Holy Spirit from the hands of a Gentile and spending 14 years in the Arabian dessert. Jesus ascends 33 AD, 8 years later is 41 AD, putting the Jerusalem Council no earlier then what, 55 AD. In all that time, what do you suppose the church at Rome was doing?

BNR32FAN · May 16, 2019

mark kennedy said:
On the day of Pentecost there were Jews of the Dispersion from all points on the compass, one of those places was Rome. The story goes a handful of believing Jews go back to Rome and establish a church. When Paul writes the church at Rome he had still not visited them, and at that point I doubt Peter had either. At one point the Jews are expelled from Rome, two of them, Ananias and Sapphira encounter at Corinth after being expelled from Rome. They become Paul's ministry partners in Ephesus that became the mother church to the churches of Asian Minor. What implications this might have for Roman Catholics I do not know but there was a pretty important church in Rome. What happened to Gentile believers after the Jews were exiled is hard to say but by all accounts the church started there under the preaching of Peter, endured, and endures to this day.

If you do a little basic math the inclusion of the Gentiles happens 8 years after the ascension of Jesus. After Paul is converted, actually receiving the Holy Spirit from the hands of a Gentile and spending 14 years in the Arabian dessert. Jesus ascends 33 AD, 8 years later is 41 AD, putting the Jerusalem Council no earlier then what, 55 AD. In all that time, what do you suppose the church at Rome was doing?

I have no clue but we can ask them one day

mark kennedy · May 16, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
I have no clue but we can ask them one day

I would be more interested in sitting James, Paul and Martin Luther down and work out the faith and works thing. When you think about it, all the prophets will be there, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob will all be there for the 1000 year reign of Christ. When you think about it, you might be teaching a Bible study class and have Moses, David and Solomon walk in and sit in the back. I know that's all fantasy and speculation but I always thought it would be something like that.

BNR32FAN · May 17, 2019

mark kennedy said:
I would be more interested in sitting James, Paul and Martin Luther down and work out the faith and works thing. When you think about it, all the prophets will be there, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob will all be there for the 1000 year reign of Christ. When you think about it, you might be teaching a Bible study class and have Moses, David and Solomon walk in and sit in the back. I know that's all fantasy and speculation but I always thought it would be something like that.

For some reason I always picture a lot of big cookouts and barbecues

bcbsr · May 17, 2019

mark kennedy said:
Mathias went out and ministered like the other Apostles, he is said to have numbered in the original 120 selected by Jesus to preach the gospel early in his ministry. Barnabas was supposedly among the 70, called for the same purpose only a little earlier. Barnabas is referred to as an apostle, a lot the same way church planting ministries are often called apostolic:

But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of this, they tore their clothes and rushed out into the crowd, shouting: “Friends, why are you doing this? We too are only human, like you. (Acts 14:14,15)

Now the 12 are distinctive, they hold a unique office to this day in the courts of heaven. One day they will rule over the twelve tribes of Israel.

As I see it, those who were personally chosen directly by Jesus Christ, if we discount Judas, are 12 people. That is the 11 Apostles in Jerusalem and Paul. Notice that Matthias was not actually chosen by Christ personally and in fact the 11 gave God only two choices and decided by flipping a coin. I think they misunderstood the concept of an apostle and the manner in which Jesus chooses them.

There was also apostles chosen by churches. Barnabus being one. In sense Paul had a dual apostleship in that he was both chosen personally by Jesus and later by the church of Antioch to go on his first missionary journey with Barnabus. Apostles are essentially missionaries sent on a mission. Paul had both a mission from Jesus Christ given to him at conversion, and later a mission from the church at Antioch to carry out his missionary journeys.

mark kennedy · May 18, 2019

bcbsr said:
As I see it, those who were personally chosen directly by Jesus Christ, if we discount Judas, are 12 people. That is the 11 Apostles in Jerusalem and Paul. Notice that Matthias was not actually chosen by Christ personally and in fact the 11 gave God only two choices and decided by flipping a coin. I think they misunderstood the concept of an apostle and the manner in which Jesus chooses them.

There was also apostles chosen by churches. Barnabus being one. In sense Paul had a dual apostleship in that he was both chosen personally by Jesus and later by the church of Antioch to go on his first missionary journey with Barnabus. Apostles are essentially missionaries sent on a mission. Paul had both a mission from Jesus Christ given to him at conversion, and later a mission from the church at Antioch to carry out his missionary journeys.

Both Mathias and Barnabas were chosen by Christ, if their mission is church planting it's called apostolic. As far as Antioch the Elders there set Paul and Barnabas aside (sanctified them) for the work the Holy Spirit had for them because the Holy Spirit told them to. Peter and the rest of the Apostles might have been confused about replacing Judas, there was a passage indicating he would be. I've always thought the 12th apostle was Paul.

BNR32FAN · May 18, 2019

bcbsr said:
As I see it, those who were personally chosen directly by Jesus Christ, if we discount Judas, are 12 people. That is the 11 Apostles in Jerusalem and Paul. Notice that Matthias was not actually chosen by Christ personally and in fact the 11 gave God only two choices and decided by flipping a coin. I think they misunderstood the concept of an apostle and the manner in which Jesus chooses them.

There was also apostles chosen by churches. Barnabus being one. In sense Paul had a dual apostleship in that he was both chosen personally by Jesus and later by the church of Antioch to go on his first missionary journey with Barnabus. Apostles are essentially missionaries sent on a mission. Paul had both a mission from Jesus Christ given to him at conversion, and later a mission from the church at Antioch to carry out his missionary journeys.

Did the apostles give God two choices or did God make the choice Himself? Don’t forget He causes all things to work together for His glory and His purpose.

RDKirk · May 18, 2019

I can't see where scripture makes much differentiation between Mathias and eight or nine other of Jesus' original 11 remaining apostles. Peter took a leadership role--explicitly given to him by Jesus. Paul was chosen by Jesus as the tip of the spear to get the gospel to the Gentiles--another explicit mission which appeared to require someone with a Hellenist background.

I don't see where Mathias didn't have an equal role in Jerusalem as, say, Nathaniel or Philip. Certainly there is no scripture to indicate that Jesus rejected Mathias.

Dave-W · May 28, 2019

bcbsr said:
What James does is try to find a compromise. He literally compromised the gospel. He took Peter's comment of the Law being too hard to keep, and what he did was that instead of rejecting the Law altogether as a means to salvation as Peter and Paul did, he simply cherry picked a few commands from the law and made the Gentile's salvation conditioned upon their compliance to those regulations. James says, "It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood." Acts 15:19-20

You conveniently left off this statement:

28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

The Acts 15 Decree

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mark kennedy

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