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The Achilles Heel of Atheism

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quatona

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So you admit that everything that doesn´t beg the question isn´t included here?
nor do I know of anyone who would take the time to refute it.
The more surprising it is that so many find Craig´s version worth of taking the time to refute it.


Contemporary philosophers are not engaged in debate
So Craig´s argument doesn´t stand on its own feet but makes only sense in the light of what certain contemporary philosophers are engaged in (or what you would me believe they are engaged in)?
So when you/Craig say "independent of subjective human opinion" you actually mean "God" (and exclude all other possibilities by claiming they are not worth being discussed)?
See, that´s why - no matter how much you and Craig are trying to veil it - you are begging the question.



I agree, one's personal beliefs are immaterial to whether premise (2) is more plausibly true or not.
Good. So you need to substantiate it.






The word "objective" used here in the argument is not controversial. It simply means "independent of human opinion" i.e. the opposite of "subjective".
If it were indeed but an ex negativo definition (which isn´t begging the question) you wouldn´t a priori exclude the majority of options that it includes.



Indeed, and since "God" is what those theistic and atheistic philosophers you are talking about are having in mind when saying "objective source of morality" your argument (since as you admit is supposed to be understood in the context of their discussion) is begging the question. You can´t have the cake and eat it, too.
 
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Elioenai26

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So you admit that everything that doesn´t beg the question isn´t included here?

I am not concerned really with what is or is not included. The moral argument is an argument for the existence of God based on there being objective moral values and duties which are best explained by them having their ground in God, as opposed to some explanation such as the by-product of socio-biological evolution, or moral platonism, etc. etc.

If you would like help in trying to refute the argument, I will gladly refer you to some contemporary philosophers who have produced objections to the argument. I am sorry to tell you that when you look at these objections, if you want me to provide them, none of them will contain the charge that Dr. Craig is begging the question.

In fact, I have only seen this charge leveled by people like yourself on internet forums who are not really knowledgeable in philosophy.

So Craig´s argument doesn´t stand on its own feet

Yes, I think it does.

but makes only sense in the light of what certain contemporary philosophers are engaged in (or what you would me believe they are engaged in)?

I do not really understand you here. The argument stands or falls on whether or not its premises are more plausibly true than not. It is not dependent on anything else, not even what other philosophers think about it.

Thus far, no one that I am aware of has been able to demonstrate that either of the two premises are more plausibly false than true.

So when you/Craig say "independent of subjective human opinion" you actually mean "God" (and exclude all other possibilities by claiming they are not worth being discussed)?

We actually mean what we say. No need to change it.

When objective morality is discussed, it is always with regards to human beings. If a philosopher says that morality is objective, then he simply means that certain things are right or wrong regardless of what people's opinions are. If a philosopher says that morality is subjective, then he simply means that certain things are right or wrong and this is determined by the person making the judgment.


See, that´s why - no matter how much you and Craig are trying to veil it - you are begging the question.

I understand that you want to deny premise (1) or (2). You have to in order to maintain your intellectual credibility and atheistic view.

However, you must find another approach than the "question begging" one.

The argument does not beg the question nor does it affirm the consequence. The argument is logically sound and airtight. You have to give a reason as to why premise (1) is more plausibly false.

But to help you out, I will ask you:

Do you believe God exists? Of course you do not.
Do you believe objective moral values and duties exist? I do not think that you do.

So you affirm premise (1). The only way you could deny it is to come up with some sort of good explanation as to how objective moral values and duties could exist apart from a moral arbiter that makes said values and duties obligatory and who transcends humanity.

But if you do not even believe objective moral values and duties exist, then your whole endeavor is one in which you are not defending your actual position, but one in which you simply wish to refute an argument for the sake of refuting an argument.

Why not just rather agree with premise (1) and attack (2)?


Once again, I understand you wish to refute the argument. Thus far you have failed miserably in that you continue to call it question begging which it is not.

I have already demonstrated in previous posts what a Modus Tollens is, I have also defined what the proponent of the argument means when he uses the word "objective".

I am at once, teaching philosophy, and providing you an argument for the existence of God.

Instead of trying to refute it, just read it and think about it. Meditate on it. Research what a Modus Tollens is and read some of the objections that actual philosophers have regarding the argument.
 
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Tnmusicman

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Don't be coy Tnmusicman, if you had evidence for god, you'd have proffered it by now.

I'm not being coy. Justified belief is what I should have said. I say evidence because to me and others there is evidence.
 
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Tnmusicman

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Right but there are others (that are atheists) that DO say there is alien life ( or rather they believe there is). These are the ones I'm addressing with the whole believing without evidence issue.
 
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Tnmusicman

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I'm not saying you personally believe it.
 
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quatona

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I am not concerned really with what is or is not included.
I know you aren´t. I know the entire "independent of subjective human opinion" wording is just an attempt to avoid saying "God" - because saying this would make the circularity of the argument all too apparent.
You presented a syllogism. I was addressing it.

If you would like help in trying to refute the argument, I will gladly refer you to some contemporary philosophers who have produced objections to the argument.
Well, either we discuss our arguments or we let others discuss on our behalfs. I am not here for the latter.
I am sorry to tell you that when you look at these objections, if you want me to provide them, none of them will contain the charge that Dr. Craig is begging the question.
Then you needn´t address it when you discuss their objections.
When you want to discuss with people here you better address the objections being made here.

In fact, I have only seen this charge leveled by people like yourself on internet forums who are not really knowledgeable in philosophy.
Ad hominem noted.
Doesn´t mean you have addressed the point.







I do not really understand you here. The argument stands or falls on whether or not its premises are more plausibly true than not. It is not dependent on anything else, not even what other philosophers think about it.
You are the one who keeps bringing up what other philosophers think about it. I was the one who was criticizing this strategy.

Thus far, no one that I am aware of has been able to demonstrate that either of the two premises are more plausibly false than true.
You make the claims, you substantiate them.
As far as premise #2 stands there it´s just an unsubstantiated claim. First of all, you´d have to provide anything that even lends a shed of plausibility to it.
As to #1: Depending on the definition of "objective" used the argument would have to be addressed in various ways. Since you first come up with a particular definition but later say you don´t care what it includes or doesn´t include you don´t appear to be interested in substantiating its plausibility.
In the broad definition it doesn´t point to a God but to countless possible non-human sources. In the way you and Craig actually mean it (without wanting to admit it) it´s question begging.





When objective morality is discussed, it is always with regards to human beings. If a philosopher says that morality is objective, then he simply means that certain things are right or wrong regardless of what people's opinions are.
So philosophers have no positive definition of "objective morality" but are left with an ex negativo definition? And when I take the definition for what it says (excluding people´s opinions and looking which hypothetical non-human entities may have an opinion) it turns out you don´t care and indeed use it just as a synonym for "God´s opinion".





I understand that you want to deny premise (1) or (2). You have to in order to maintain your intellectual credibility and atheistic view.
Poisoning the well fallacy. Cut the disingenious strategies, will you?
I am looking at the syllogism you presented and I see that premises 1 and 2 are lacking substantiation.

However, you must find another approach than the "question begging" one.
So let´s talk about all those hypothetically existing non-human beings that have an opinion. Or admit that you are begging the question.


The argument does not beg the question nor does it affirm the consequence. The argument is logically sound and airtight.
Ipse dixit.
You have to give a reason as to why premise (1) is more plausibly false.
No. You make the argument, you show why it´s plausible.

But to help you out, I will ask you:

Do you believe God exists? Of course you do not.
Do you believe objective moral values and duties exist? I do not think that you do.

So you affirm premise (1).
What?
Not at all. Even a person who doesn´t believe in God and doesn´t believe in objective morality need in no way agree with or affirm the causal connection implied in premise (1).
I don´t affirm the statement "Without pink elephants there wouldn´t be UFOs" just because I don´t happen to believe in either of them.
The only way you could deny it is to come up with some sort of good explanation as to how objective moral values and duties could exist apart from a moral arbiter that makes said values and duties obligatory and who transcends humanity.
Oh, so you are already leaving the mere "independent of human opinion" definition behind and add a lot of stuff to it.

But if you do not even believe objective moral values and duties exist, then your whole endeavor is one in which you are not defending your actual position, but one in which you simply wish to refute an argument for the sake of refuting an argument.
Yes, indeed. I am presented an argument and I am scrutinizing whether it holds water.
My position is completely irrelevant for that.
You almost make it sound like there´s something wrong with that, and that everyone should approach these question in the partisan way you do.

Why not just rather agree with premise (1) and attack (2)?
Because both come with their own problems which need to be addressed.
You always keep forgetting that I am not defending a position and am not trying to refute a position but just am looking at the argument as presented.

The main problem with premise (1) is: It´s not a mere premise but a syllogism of its own (with one of the premises being hidden).




I am at once, teaching philosophy, and providing you an argument for the existence of God.
Yes, I am sure that´s what you think you do. :facepalm:
 
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Elioenai26

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In light of the above I would rather refrain from discussing the argument further.

You see, the moral argument, which is NOT what this thread is about, is an argument that is presented, generally to atheists, not so that they can simply engage it as a sort of mental or intellectual exercise with a concern for only refuting it at whatever cost, but rather, it is presented with the hopes that the person will examine it, meditate on it, compare what it argues for with their own personal views, and in the end weigh what the argument concludes.

I do not feel the need to go back and forth with you defending an argument when you admittedly refuse to state your position and defend it (which is what you must do if you deny either of the premises). You continue to repeat over and over again that the argument is question begging.

Instead of seeking to refute the argument, I would recommend you read some introductory work on philosophy, specifically with regards to formulating syllogisms. This would help you immensely to better understand these types of arguments.

I will simply let you ponder the argument, and if you have any questions, feel free to ask!

 
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Ana the Ist

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Wonderful rant! Now allow me to retort with "The Achilles Heel of Theism".....

Evidence.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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The way you have defined 'objective moral values' in premise (1) isn't just "independent of human opinion". You defined 'objective moral values' as values which "stem from God as their locus". Defined in this way, the argument begs the question because it actually reads:

1. If God does not exist, then objective moral values (defined as values which stem from God) do not exist.
2. Objective moral values (defined as values which stem from God) do exist.
3. Therefore, God exists.

You recognised your mistake and offered a second definition, according to which 'objective moral values' are independent of personal perception and conception. You have described God as a person. From your definition of 'objective', it would follow logically then that 'objective' values must also be independent of God as he is, in your view, a person.


You constantly appeal to "most contemporary philosophers" as though that is supposed to hold some currency. Even so, you often get it wrong.


I've already shown that to be false. In the first instance, you've defined 'objective moral values' as values which stem from God and whose reality is inseparable from the divine. In your second definition, you've defined 'objective moral values' as independent of personal perception and conception, a definition would preclude personal deities. Now, in your third definition, you want to pretend as though the first two definitions never existed.


I already have. You abandoned the thread.


According to this survey, the majority of atheist philosophers do not agree with premise (1).

Would you like me to furnish you with some objections from contemporary philosophers on premise (1)? I do not know that there will be many, but I may be able to dig some up.

From Craig's website? No thank you. I prefer to focus on your defence of the argument and my objections to it.


Notice that you dodged my question. Instead of telling me how you came by the knowledge you claim to possess, you describe a situation in which you are unwilling to believe a certain claim regardless of the evidence presented. You're right: if someone is unwilling to believe that he is my father, then not even a paternity test will be satisfactory for him. But that is beside the point. The problem is the person's unwillingness, not the evidence. I've asked you for evidence.


Considering that, in your view, everything is evidence for God, perhaps you've set the bar so low that virtually anything will simply be construed as evidence for God. The cosmological argument is just as good as the argument from squirrels.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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I have a degree in philosophy. Your knowledge of philosophy is limited to WLC's website. You have no reason to be pompous.

I do not really understand you here. The argument stands or falls on whether or not its premises are more plausibly true than not. It is not dependent on anything else, not even what other philosophers think about it.

Then why keep bringing up what other philosophers think about the premises? Why keep bringing up the objections of other philosophers? You did that no more than a few paragraphs above.


This has all been addressed already in the thread on the moral argument.

I have already demonstrated in previous posts what a Modus Tollens is, I have also defined what the proponent of the argument means when he uses the word "objective".

You've offered three separate definitions. Your first definition clearly begs the question. Your second definition precludes personal deities. And now, with your third definition, you wish to sweep the other two under the rug.

Instead of trying to refute it, just read it and think about it. Meditate on it. Research what a Modus Tollens is and read some of the objections that actual philosophers have regarding the argument.

A moment ago you said that what other philosophers think about the argument is irrelevant.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Elioenai26 seems to think that our memory of the thread on the moral argument has faded, that we've forgotten about his previous definitions of 'objective moral values', and that what has transpired in that thread is no longer within our grasp. He seems to think that appealing to "contemporary philosophers", even though his own reading is limited to WLC, holds some currency. Presumably, we are supposed to be impressed by hearing "contemporary philosophers think this..." I don't know of any contemporary philosophers who appeal to "contemporary philosophers" in their papers as though it were a point worth mentioning, and repeatedly at that. In fact, it would seem like philosophical bad taste to rely on such appeals as frequently as Elio does. In a philosophy course, that wouldn't earn him any extra points on his final paper. It would be considered a waste of words.
 
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Skavau

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I am not concerned really with what is or is not included. The moral argument is an argument for the existence of God based on there being objective moral values and duties which are best explained by them having their ground in God
The moral argument is an argument for the existence of God based on the *assumption* that objective moral values exist and that their existence indicates the existence of a God. They also misrepresent, twist and distort the notion of "objective moral values" to be indistinguishable to following the edicts of a dictator.

Who cares?

An objection to an idea is valid regardless of whence it came or who said it.
 
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quatona

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In light of the above I would rather refrain from discussing the argument further.
Even though you yourself has brought this argument up refraining from discussing it further is your prerogative.

You see, the moral argument, which is NOT what this thread is about,
Indeed, I have noticed you have a habit of taking your own threads off-topic.
Since I have told you that it´s the latter which I am doing and not the first, and you are the one trying to defend it at whatever cost it´s pretty obvious that the above is not the reason why you refrain from continuing the discussion.

I do not feel the need to go back and forth with you defending an argument when you admittedly refuse to state your position and defend it (which is what you must do if you deny either of the premises).
IOW you are unable to defend your argument, and what you actually need is a counterposition to tackle, pretending that this helps the plausibility of your argument. Nothing new here, it´s the pattern common to all your arguments.
I, however, am not a priori denying the premises. I am just noting when they lack substantiation.
You continue to repeat over and over again that the argument is question begging.
Yes, and you continue to dodge the point over and over again.
And, as you have correctly realized we haven´t even gotten to premise #2 which is by far the weaker one.

Instead of seeking to refute the argument,
I never said I was seeking to refute the argument. I said something else. You are a victim to your projections.
I would recommend you read some introductory work on philosophy, specifically with regards to formulating syllogisms. This would help you immensely to better understand these types of arguments.
Irony alert.
You can shove your condescension up a warm and safe place.
 
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quatona

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You've offered three separate definitions. Your first definition clearly begs the question. Your second definition precludes personal deities. And now, with your third definition, you wish to sweep the other two under the rug.
I´d also like to point out that the third definition is so fine-tuned to match the Abrahamic God concept that it would render the argument circular again.
 
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quatona

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I understand this strategy (as well as many others Elioenai uses regularly) as the concession that he is unable to address the argument.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Irony alert.
You can shove your condescension up a warm and safe place.

The pompousness is hilarious, isn't it? In the CA thread I was waiting for him to tell Wiccan Child, a theoretical physicist, that he should seek out introductory physics courses.
 
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poolerboy0077

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That's certainly a favored approach by some atheists but it is entirely inconsequential to one's atheism. Jainism, for example, is virtually a completely non-violent religion. As author and neuroscientist Sam Harris once put it, "The crazier you get as a Jain, the less we have to worry about you." That it is likely the most palatable religion on the planet does not mean it is true. I have a bias, and I think most people--theist and non-theist alike--share in this bias which is that it is better to track reality in the long run than to be delusional. Whether something is useful is wholly separate from its veracity.
 
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Elioenai26

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That's certainly a favored approach by some atheists but it is entirely inconsequential to one's atheism....Whether something is useful is wholly separate from its veracity.

While I agree with the second part, I disagree with the first.

If Christianity taught hate instead of love, self-centeredness instead of self-denial and self-sacrifice, apathy as opposed to compassion and concern for one's neighbor, then even if Christianity were "true", I would not practice it.

Likewise, if Christianity were proven false, which incidentally, it never could be, I would still be a Christian in the sense that I would still seek to pattern my life after the life of Christ.

Knowledge by no means is evil in itself, but knowledge tends to "puff up" while love "builds up".

The words of the Apostle Paul are so pertinent here. He says:


If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.
Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.

Therefore, I would much rather be guided by love and order my life around this principle, than to seek mere knowledge which can in no way in and of itself commend me to God or my neighbor.

Surely it is a saying worthy of acceptance, that men care not how much thou knowest, until they know how much thou carest.
 
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KCfromNC

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I am not "pretending" you said anything like that at all.

I am plainly stating that that is what you are if you deny the existence of God.

You know, I've been around quite a while. I always thought that I knew my own thoughts and feelings. But thankfully you've come along to correct me and tell me what I actually believe - and it makes so much sense that some random stranger on the internet would know what I believed better than I do. What would I ever have done without you correcting what I think I think about issues like this?

But getting back on track, do you have any sort of testable hypothesis about your god concept, or was your claim of empirical evidence for it a mistake?
 
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KCfromNC

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You seem to be mad at me for repeating what atheists themselves have said.

Which ones, specifically? Let's see some actual quotes with references to the full context.

You've made lots of claims about what I've said and believe, and you've been pretty spectacularly wrong. If I can find mistakes in something as simple as quoting within a single thread, I have no reason to think you're any better at remembering and paraphrasing the beliefs of other random people.
 
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