The 4-point Calvinist's position - Nearer truth than full Calvinism or Arminianism?

Marvin Knox · Jan 30, 2015

AndOne said:
I'm thinking he should read all of it including the Bible references and rejection of errors.

I have read all of it, led classes on it, taught more than one P.C.U.S.A. session (both conservative and liberal) on the meaning of it and referred Pentecostal, Word of Faith and Baptist groups to it many times as well as distributing complete copies of the issues and findings of The Synod of Dort and the Westminster Confession of Faith over the years as well as started threads in this forum defending many of the statements found in them?

What makes anyone think that I am unfamiliar with the Canons of Dort and the concepts embodied in it - since I started my OP referring specifically to it?

Albion · Jan 31, 2015

Marvin Knox said:
The real fact is that every concept expressed in Calvinism is built in and goes hand in hand with the very notion of an omniscient and omnipresent God who creates, sustains, and predestines all things that He creates according to His wise plan - as presented in the scriptures. Ive always said that.

What is in dispute in full on limited atonement is whether the atonement would be sufficient to eternally forgive every sinner on earth if any particular person you could name believed the gospel. (Forget for the moment whether that is likely to happen.) In the doctrine of limited atonement, Christ did not bear the sins of some people. (That is the offensive part to so many.)

All the belief in the world would do no good for those people. If the atonement was not for them, their sins can never be forgiven even if, by some amazing unimaginable feat, they somehow managed to believe the message of the gospel.

But because they are not among the Elect, the point is pointless. Or that's how I see it. OF COURSE atonement is limited if Election is true.

AndOne · Jan 31, 2015

Marvin Knox said:
I have read all of it, led classes on it, taught more than one P.C.U.S.A. session (both conservative and liberal) on the meaning of it and referred Pentecostal, Word of Faith and Baptist groups to it many times as well as distributing complete copies of the issues and findings of The Synod of Dort and the Westminster Confession of Faith over the years as well as started threads in this forum defending many of the statements found in them?

What makes anyone think that I am unfamiliar with the Canons of Dort and the concepts embodied in it - since I started my OP referring specifically to it?

Well - I'm just going off your posts in this thread. It just seems to me you don't fully understand LA. A lot of what you say concerning this doesn't make much sense as far as I'm concerned. See post #38.

drstevej · Jan 31, 2015

I prefer the term "Christmas Calvinist" as in No-L. I do hold to Limited Attainment.

sdowney717 · Jan 31, 2015

1 John 2
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

There is no universal salvation of all people without faith in Christ.
John 1
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

The Lamb of God is only the atoning sacrifice for those who believe in Him, by faith. They will have their sins remembered no more.
What John is teaching us is that salvation of God in Christ will be extended to the entire world. So He, Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for not only the sins of the nation of Israel, but also the entire gentile world. The propitiation, is the atonement, the forgiveness for sins for any and all who believe. Romans 3

Now in John 11, we read more about who Jesus dies for. And it is not only the nation of Israel, but also the children of God scattered abroad. These are the 'other sheep I have' which Christ told us he must also bring together to God so that there will be one flock and one shepherd.

The Plot to Kill Jesus

45 Then many of the Jews who had come to Mary, and had seen the things Jesus did, believed in Him. 46 But some of them went away to the Pharisees and told them the things Jesus did. 47 Then the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered a council and said, What shall we do? For this Man works many signs. 48 If we let Him alone like this, everyone will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and nation.

49 And one of them, Caiaphas, being high priest that year, said to them, You know nothing at all, 50 nor do you consider that it is expedient for us[e] that one man should die for the people, and not that the whole nation should perish.

51 Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.
53 Then, from that day on, they plotted to put Him to death. 54 Therefore Jesus no longer walked openly among the Jews, but went from there into the country near the wilderness, to a city called Ephraim, and there remained with His disciples.

and not for that nation only would Christ die, but also for those that He would gather together into one body who are the children of God scattered abroad in the gentile world. Before they know God, God knows His own, because of foreknowledge, He knows what He is going to do. God has known them beforehand because God has fashioned them beforehand to be conformed to the image of Christ His Son.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

This is what it means to be called of God to be saved which has included people from the nations.., the propitiation, the atoning sacrifice to be applied by the shed blood of the Lamb through faith onto all those who believe, and ONLY for those who believe (or will believe, the called of God, the other sheep He has) did Christ die, propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness that he is the justifier of those who have faith in Christ.
Christ will lose none of all the Father has given Him, God is able to do so because His will can not be thwarted being all powerful and His command is eternal life to the sheep of Christ, for those in the past, present and future, for all time into eternity, age enduring eternal life.

Romans 1
Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God 2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures, 3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead. 5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name, 6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

To those who God loves in the church at Rome, Paul writes his letter of greeting

Job8 · Jan 31, 2015

God has not given anyone the authority or the right to change the plain meaning of His Word and there are severe consequences for doing so (Rev 22:18,19).

Let us look at the plain meaning of Scriptures quoted in post #45:
1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 Jn 2:1,2).

Since John is writing to believers, "our sins" refers to the sins of believers. Even though "the sins" is in italics in the next clause it is clear that "ALSO FOR THE WHOLE WORLD" means exactly that -- the sins of the whole world of humanity. Therfore this Scripture plainly teaches that Christ is the propitiation or satisfaction for the sins of believers and unbelievers - the whole world.

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (John 1:29)
This Scripture plainly states that the Lamb of God -- the Lord Jesus Christ -- takes away THE SIN (singular) OF THE WORLD. This is not just individual sins but the entire sinful condition (all sins and all guilt) of the whole world. This corresponds to Isa 53:6: All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. [iniquity = perversity, moral evil, sin Strong's 5771] "All" means "all" without exception.

51And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
52And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad. (Jn 11:51,52).
What is this passage teaching? That Christ was (1) the Lamb of God for Israel and (2) the Lamb of God for all the children of God.

Does that mean that individual Jews would not have to repent and believe individually and that the whole nation would be automatically saved? Not at all. Read Acts 2:22-41.

Does that mean that all the children of God would be saved automatically? Not at all. Every sinner would need to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and receive Him (Jn 1:12,13).

Does that mean that Christ did not die for the sins of the whole world? Not at all. Scripture does not contradict itself. Christ did indeed die for the sins of the whole world, but only those who obey the Gospel are saved (2 Thess 1:8).

All the other Scriptures quoted must be taken in context and fitted to the fundamental truth that the Lamb of God did indeed take away the sin of the world. Any attempt to change this is to pervert the Gospel.

sdowney717 · Jan 31, 2015

Job8, think about what your saying!

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (John 1:29)
This Scripture plainly states that the Lamb of God -- the Lord Jesus Christ -- takes away THE SIN (singular) OF THE WORLD. This is not just individual sins but the entire sinful condition (all sins and all guilt) of the whole world. This corresponds to Isa 53:6: All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. [iniquity = perversity, moral evil, sin Strong's 5771] "All" means "all" without exception.

If their sins are removed from them, why then do unbelivers go to hell?
Unbelievers go to hell for their sin.
You by logic are a universalist.

sdowney717 · Jan 31, 2015

John 8:24
I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.

John 3
18 He who believes in Him is not condemned;
but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Marvin Knox · Jan 31, 2015

Albion said:
But because they are not among the Elect, the point is pointless. Or that's how I see it. OF COURSE atonement is limited if Election is true.

Exactly.

So why use the term limited atonement when there are so very many misunderstandings of it? Just going for a moment from what is being said about my understanding on this thread - we can see how these things are misunderstood.(I'm not admitting to any misunderstanding - just using me as a an example.)

I have been a Christian for close to 60 years and most of them have been with a Reformed background. Not bragging, just saying - I have a huge library of Reformed material. Systematic theology is my passion. I listen to a sermon or teaching on MP3 from the Reformed viewpoint on average of several hrs. a week. have been a teaching elder in the Presbyterian Church for a long time.

Most of my family and many of my friends are not Calvinists and I take heat constantly for it and defend it often. etc. etc.

All that to say this. If, as you say, I do not understand limited atonement rightly, how much more must most other Christians misunderstand it?

Since, as you say, atonement is limited automatically if election is true - why add all of the angst and misunderstanding associated with the term when all of the other points result in basically the same thing?

It's not like the term limited atonement is inexorably linked to the Westminster or anything such as that. The T.U.L.I.P. acronym has been a fairly recent development. Usually said to date from somewhere in the first half of the 20th century.

If people like myself can't understand it correctly (you say) and virtually every Arminian misunderstands it and bristles at it's mention and shuts off any further attempt to share the doctrines of grace - why do that to ourselves as Reformed types? The bases are covered already just by explaining the other points of grace (which are to my way of thinking much more defensible).

The point I am making is that there is no need to cause this kind of stumbling block.

And - by the way - I understand most of the ways of understanding limited atonement pretty well. And there is a very, very big difference from one person saying that it only has to do with the "intent" of the cross - and someone saying that Christ did not die for everyone in the world.

You or someone else may give me your definition of limited atonement and I may agree fully (as in the ultimate intent of the cross etc.). I am a firm believer in the absolute sovereignty of God. I believe that every single thing that happens has been predestined by God. Everything that happens in the history of this world will be according to His "intent".

Someone else (right here in this thread) will explain limited atonement by saying that Christ did not die for everyone, He only bore the sins of His sheep, His death was not for the whole world, sheep were on the radar at Calvary and not goats. On and on it goes - you know it does. If one says those things as an explanation of the range of the sacrifice of Christ - I will object most clearly as I have here.

This reminds me a great deal of what we hear all the time concerning who is and who is not "really" Reformed.

Someone will say - "Oh, you are misunderstanding the meaning of limited atonement." And they will say that right after I've received reply after reply and read thread after thread concerning the meaning of "the whole world" and that Christ didn't die for everyone etc.

I KNOW VERY CLEARLY EXACTLY HOW THE RANK AND FILE IN CALVINISM (WHETHER TEACHER OR LAYMAN) EXPLAIN LIMITED ATONEMENT. IT'S AROUND HERE IN THE FORUM FOR ALL TO SEE. IT IS THAT EXPLANATION THAT I AM REFUTING.

I AM REFUTING THE IDEA THAT CHRIST COULD NOT HAVE DIED FOR EVERYONE OR ELSE EVERYONE WOULD BE IN HEAVEN. I can think of several ways that that could be. Therefore that logic is flawed and unnecessary to believe IMO.

Marvin Knox · Jan 31, 2015

AndOne said:
Well - I'm just going off your posts in this thread. It just seems to me you don't fully understand LA. A lot of what you say concerning this doesn't make much sense as far as I'm concerned. See post #38.

I not only understand limited atonement as you understand it. I understand it the way many (likely most) Calvinists understand it as well.

If you and I were forced to teach limited atonement as shown in the Scriptures - you and I may well teach it the same way.

But I'm not forced to teach the term at all. Using that term causes too many believers to stumble and I'm not supposed to cause that kind of offense.

So long as the utterly defensible 4-points of Calvinism can be explained clearly and scripturally - I will not defend one that relies on tortured interpretations of certain Scriptures and the ignoring of others that teach unlimited atonement.

Marvin Knox · Jan 31, 2015

drstevej said:
I prefer the term "Christmas Calvinist" as in No-L. I do hold to Limited Attainment.

Love it!

sdowney717 · Jan 31, 2015

Marvin Knox said:
I not only understand limited atonement as you understand it. I understand it the way many (likely most) Calvinists understand it as well.

If you and I were forced to teach limited atonement as shown in the Scriptures - you and I may well teach it the same way.

But I'm not forced to teach the term at all. Using that term causes too many believers to stumble and I'm not supposed to cause that kind of offense.

So long as the utterly defensible 4-points of Calvinism can be explained clearly and scripturally - I will no defend one that relies on tortured interpretations of certain Scriptures and the ignoring of others that teach unlimited atonement.

I get the feeling your just looking for people to agree with you. And throwing up the idea of stumbling blocks, well really now?

sdowney717 · Jan 31, 2015

Marvin Knox,

Since I have shared on the limited atonement which you view as torturing passages, why dont you go ahead and share the scriptural understanding of unlimited propitiation.

"Propitiation means the turning away of wrath by an offering. In relation to soteriology, propitiation means placating or satisfying the wrath of God by the atoning sacrifice of Christ." Charles C. Ryrie (1999-01-11). Basic Theology: A Popular Systematic Guide to Understanding Biblical Truth (Kindle Locations 5503-5504). Moody Publishers. Kindle Edition.

Propitiation (atonement) means the turning away of wrath, tell me how the world has had God's wrath turned away from it.

Marvin Knox · Jan 31, 2015

sdowney717 said:
I get the feeling your just looking for people to agree with you. And throwing up the idea of stumbling blocks, well really now?

No need to go by feelings. I'll say it outright. Of course I want people to agree with me.

Brother - (and I do mean that I think of you as my brother ) if you don't understand that the term limited atonement is a stumbling block to millions of believers, you've not been paying attention.

I'm heading to Hawaii for a couple of weeks. Everyone has my permission to talk about all they want to while I'm gone.

Aloha!

drstevej · Jan 31, 2015

Btw, Dr. Ryrie (my seminary prof) did not hold limited atonement.

sdowney717 · Jan 31, 2015

drstevej said:
Btw, Dr. Ryrie (my seminary prof) did not hold limited atonement.

I get the feeling that a lot of human emotions are interfering with what atonement means.

Marvin Knox · Jan 31, 2015

sdowney717 said:
Marvin Knox,................. Propitiation (atonement) means the turning away of wrath, tell me how the world has had God's wrath turned away from it.

"Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. [FONT=&quot]Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God." (2 Corinthians 5:18-20 NASB)

[FONT=&quot]God has reconciled every sin and sinner in the his[FONT=&quot]toryof the world to Himself in the person of Christ His eternal [FONT=&quot]Word. The question now is whether [FONT=&quot]they will be reconciled to [FONT=&quot]G[/FONT]od through faith. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]You must have sneaked this one in after I said I was heading to Hawaii. Thought I'd give a [FONT=&quot]brief response before goin[FONT=&quot]g.

[FONT=&quot]I've [FONT=&quot]g[/FONT]o[FONT=&quot]t a plain to catch now. [/FONT][/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

drstevej · Jan 31, 2015

sdowney717 said:
I get the feeling that a lot of human emotions are interfering with what atonement means.

Nah, a classmate of mine and good buddy is President of Westminster Theological Seminary and is bold-L TULIP. For me it is not emotions or friendships... it is exegesis. So your feeling is just that, it is not fact.

drstevej · Jan 31, 2015

Just for fun... a parable I wrote

The Parable of the Amyraldian

Unlimited Atonement yet Limited Attainment

A wealthy man buys ten tickets to Hawaii and has his Son pay cash for them. He sends a letter to ten people with a ticket purchased for them and invites them to join him in Hawaii.

He also sends a Special Courier to deliver three of the tickets to a select group of the ten and has the Courier earnestly persuade them to go {His persuasion is irresistible!} The Courier then escorts them onto the plane insuring they get to Hawaii.

The other seven get the letter and the ticket that has been purchased for them, but because they hate the wealthy man [he makes them feel guilty] they refuse to use the ticket. They each think. If I ever go to Hawaii, I'm going MY way. No one is paying my way, especially not That Guy!

The wealthy man, his son and the courier rejoice with the three in Hawaii. The other seven never make it and their tickets, while paid in full, are never used. While the three are in the beauty of Hawaii with the wealthy man a plague strikes the home towns of the seven and they perish.

NOTE: This is an artificially constructed parable to show how the price can be paid in full for those who refuse to receive the gift. The Father's election and the Spirit's persuasion are limited to the elect, yet a ticket purchased by the Son is legitimately extended to all.

Unlimited Atonement yet Limited Attainment

sdowney717 · Jan 31, 2015

Marvin Knox said:
"Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. [FONT=&quot]Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God." (2 Corinthians 5:18-20 NASB)

[FONT=&quot]God has reconciled every sin and sinner in the his[FONT=&quot]toryof the world to Himself in the person of Christ His eternal [FONT=&quot]Word. The question now is whether [FONT=&quot]they will be reconciled to [FONT=&quot]G[/FONT]od through faith. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]You must have sneaked this one in after I said I was heading to Hawaii. Thought I'd give a [FONT=&quot]brief response before goin[FONT=&quot]g.

[FONT=&quot]I've [FONT=&quot]g[/FONT]o[FONT=&quot]t a plain to catch now. [/FONT][/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

Ok,

18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Simply that the gospel is being preached to the nations now. And that by believing in Christ they can be saved, which is what the apostles show took place all through out Acts.

v18, he has reconciled us -- we are saved. So we have atonement.

We are given the ministry of reconciliation to tell others about Christ in the gentile world, the whole world, that by believing the gospel means their sins-trespasses will not be imputed to their account and God uses us to spread that good news.

However if they are disobedient, their sins are imputed to their account, so this passage does not support unlimited atonement. The effectual calling of God and resultant atonement by his blood through faith is not nullified by these verses.

Their sins will most certainly be imputed if they do not believe in Christ.
Acts 26, Jesus tells Paul this

17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now[a] send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

This is not open ended universal salvation, just that God is going to send Paul to preach among the gentiles. And God will open their eyes and they will be saved. But not all are saved are they.

The 4-point Calvinist's position - Nearer truth than full Calvinism or Arminianism?

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