The 3rd Temple Problem for those outside of Christianity

John 1720 said:

We see them in the fragments of Papias and the extant works of Polycarp.

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Speaking of Polycarp....Rome didn't listen to Polycarp even though he had been taught by the Apostle John himself. That just shows that Rome was starting to go their own way even in the 2nd century.

I do appreciate and agree with some of what you have said.

For the longest time Christian theologians thought G-d was done with the Jews. And then He gave them back the Land of Israel. For the longest time Christian theologians think a third temple isn't part of G-d's plan and sanctity, yet when it happens...

JohnB445 said:

Christians already know the 3rd Temple will be for the coming of the Anti-Christ, it is really amazing how this is all set up as it was engineered to happen (About the prophecy coming true not the coming of the Anti-Christ.) But those outside of Christianity may not know of this, hopefully, they will have Bibles around. The Third Temple for Judaism is in preparation for the coming of the Rabbinic Messiah (The Anti-Christ).

There is no priesthood, the Romans destroyed the records of the priesthood along with the 2nd temple in 70AD, and any existing record has disappeared. Not one can prove they are a priest descendant from Aaron. When Ezra had the building for the 2nd temple, if a priest could not provide proof of his ancestry from the tribe of Levi they were not allowed in the temple. And there isn't one person no matter who they are, that can prove their priesthood. So no priesthood, no temple.

In Jerimiah CHP3
The Prophet Jerimiah proclaimed that at the coming of the New Covenant, that the temple would no longer be needed (discontinued). Ezekial temple is figurative for the Church.

The only true temple is the Church, and there is no salvation apart from Jesus Christ.

so any hopes and plans for the Third Temple for those outside of Christianity self-destructed. Blood Atonement for Sins happened at the Cross.

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I don't know if a third Temple will or will not be built. If it is built, it does not follow that it will be built for the antichrist. What the Scripture does say is that at some point the antichrist will march in, take control of this Temple and set up an idol of some sort. There are elements among Orthodox and Ultraorthodox Jews that are very interested in building a Third Temple, although there are many political problems. There are also disagreements within the Jewish community about how it should be done and whether it should be done at all. The most obvious obstacle is the Dome of the Rock, the Moslem mosque that has been on the Temple mount for hundreds of years. Many have assumed that the Dome of the Rock would have to be torn down for a new Temple to be built. Actually, it seems that there is plenty of space for a Temple to be built without tearing the it down.

Many modern Orthodox Rabbis believe that they can identify the men with the hereditary right to serve as sacrificial priests in a new Temple.

We don't know if the politics of Israel and disagreements among Jews will ever allow the Third Temple to be built. If it isn't, then perhaps the antichrist will set up desecrating idol spoken of in prophecy on the Temple mount, but not inside a Jewish Temple. Until we know for certain that this new Temple will be built, that looks like the best way to resolve the paradoxes. The antichrist may set up an idol where the Temple once stood, or at least on the Temple mount.

David Cabrera said:

First of all, no everyone believes in Rapture Theology and a Jewish Temple.
Second, do you think the idea about the Rapture is a secret only Christians know it? The whole US relation with Israel is based around that idea.

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You make it sound like the American alliance with Israel is based on the absurd notion of Rapture. It is not and never has been. Certainly the status of Israel as the only democracy in the Middle East is one major reason Americans sympathize with Israel. Second, Israel is largely a nation of immigrants, something that is also true of the US. Third, the State of Israel is seen as a haven for Jews, certainly important given the enormous persecutions they have been through in the past.



President Harry Truman chose to recognize Israel even as they fought for their independence. I'm not sure Harry Truman had ever heard of "Rapture."

John 1720 said:

Hi John,
I think you raise a legitimate issue but not one that is impossible to overcome. I believe a physical (3rd) temple being rebuilt in Jerusalem was understood as prophecy by the early Christians, post AD 70 of course. These 3rd and 4th generation Christians also clearly understood that Christ was the true 3rd temple, not built by human hands but Emmanuel, and yet still comprised with the Holy of Holies, the Court of Israel, and the Court of the Gentiles; all per God's design. The future temple would therefore be only a 3rd physical undertaking and antithetical to the work of Christ, the stone the builders rejected but which has become the chief cornerstone of the temple, which God has opened to all nations. (Note: Herod's temple, mentioned in John 2:20 was, for all its earthly magnificence as a wonder of the world, merely an enhancement of Zerubbabel's more diminutive work that God had truly blessed.)
As to the antichrist, the early Church believed he would come from the tribe of Dan; they also believed he would indeed make himself High Priest. I often wondered that why they claimed they would make him so, with no record of being from the Levitical line. However, as to the line being impossible to achieve, even if you do believe that is necessary requirement, I suggest a three letter acronym might resolve the alleged problem of the priestly line - "DNA".
Excerpts from the eschatological commentaries of Hippolytus AD 170-235.

• 
  In conclusion, this seems to indicate the leaders of the ancient Church understood the prophesies and warning of the Apostles well. Relative to that understanding, we see that understanding included:
  1. the return of the Jewish people to their homeland
  2. the reclamation of the ancient state of Israel
  3. the physical rebuilding of the ancient temple
  4. the reinstitution of the priesthood, which would ultimately honor the charismatic beloved man, who ultimately will deceive many, and is in fact the very son of perdition.
  • Mark 13:22 “For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

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Why would a secular nation build a two thousand year old sacrificial temple?

Israel is a secular nation and not a theocracy.

Where would they build it and why would they build it?

This concept is one of the more bizarre ideas still embedded in modern Christianity.

klutedavid said:

Why would a secular nation build a two thousand year old sacrificial temple?

Israel is a secular nation and not a theocracy.

Where would they build it and why would they build it?

This concept is one of the more bizarre ideas still embedded in modern Christianity.

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Israel is a secular country in some ways but it does have religious legislation. There are religious political parties, they are represented in the Knesset, and Netanyahu's ruling coalition depends on their votes at this moment. Yes, the politics is complicated but it is not inconceivable that some political compromise could bring it about.

Hank77 said:

Speaking of Polycarp....Rome didn't listen to Polycarp even though he had been taught by the Apostle John himself. That just shows that Rome was starting to go their own way even in the 2nd century.

I do appreciate and agree with some of what you have said.

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Thanks Hank,
Yes, Polycarp and Anicetus disagreed with respect to the proper dates for celebrating Easter. Polycarp followed John's teaching on this. However, Anicetus thought it prudent not to change the dates, mainly because the dates for celebrating Easter was already well entrenched in the Roman churches. My guess is he didn't want to rock the boat. However, neither did he think the Eastern churches, that Polycarp presided over, should change John's instruction regarding the dates to celebrate. Irenaeus actually saw that whole episode as Christian example of how to avoid dividing over minor non-essential differences that don't take away from the major doctrines of Christianity. Bring any two Christians together and I'm sure, if they discuss enough topics, they will find something to disagree about, but despite that, as long as they can still agree on the major aspects of doctrine, they will still depart as brothers or sisters.
In Christ, Patrick

klutedavid said:

Why would a secular nation build a two thousand year old sacrificial temple?

Israel is a secular nation and not a theocracy.

Where would they build it and why would they build it?

This concept is one of the more bizarre ideas still embedded in modern Christianity.

Click to expand...

Hello Sir,
The desire for the temple has always been there among a remnant of the Jewish people. They may be a secular nation but all one has to do is go to the wailing wall to know the Jewish religion runs very deep with many Israelis.

• Third Temple - Wikipedia

As far as the Christians go I suppose we could disregard the prophecies of Jesus, Paul and John but I'm not sure impeaching their prophecy leaves you with Christianity. Some samples:

• Mark 13:14 "So when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not" (let the reader understand), "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
  • This did not happen in AD 70 when the Romans destroyed the temple.
• 2 Thessalonians 2:1-17
  Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?
  • This did not happen in AD 70 when the Romans destroyed the temple.
• Revelation 11:1-2
  Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, “Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there, but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months.
  • Revelation was written in AD 96, a quarter of a century after the temple was destroyed. Yet John is talking about measuring the temple

John 1720 said:

Hello Sir,
The desire for the temple has always been there among a remnant of the Jewish people. They may be a secular nation but all one has to do is go to the wailing wall to know the Jewish religion runs very deep with many Israelis.

• Third Temple - Wikipedia

As far as the Christians go I suppose we could disregard the prophecies of Jesus, Paul and John but I'm not sure impeaching their prophecy leaves you with Christianity. Some samples:

• Mark 13:14 "So when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not" (let the reader understand), "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
  • This did not happen in AD 70 when the Romans destroyed the temple.
• 2 Thessalonians 2:1-17
  Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?
  • This did not happen in AD 70 when the Romans destroyed the temple.
• Revelation 11:1-2
  Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, “Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there, but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months.
  • Revelation was written in AD 96, a quarter of a century after the temple was destroyed. Yet John is talking about measuring the temple

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According to Luke's gospel chapter twenty one, the temple in Jerusalem was left desolate. Your read the phrase, 'abomination of desolation' as having some persona. That phrase is simply saying that the temple in Jerusalem will be destroyed, desolate. That desolation of the temple was fulfilled within the lifetime, of those living when Jesus gave the prophecy.

I believe Paul's description of the end time event, is not talking about the Jewish temple.

We are in the era of the Gentiles now, the old theocratic nation of Israel is ancient history.

I struggle to understand how people read Luke 21 and not notice it's fulfillment.

Brian Mcnamee said:

You are right jesus did predict the destruction of the Temple but also said Jerusalem shall be trampled by the Gentiles until the time of the Gentiles had ended. Jesus warned Daniels abomination of desolation was a future event.

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Based on Luke 2124-28, the "times of the Gentiles" ends at the future Second Coming of Christ.

Matthew 24:15-16, and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, since we have the exact same warning to flee in the second verse of each Gospel.

John 10:22 explains when Daniel's prophecy was fulfilled.
The Jews who lived during the time of Christ, celebrated Hanukkah each year, as revealed by this verse.

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JohnB445 said:

You are confusing what this post was about. I never claimed the Third temple being built in Isreal is where God would be.

Also a quote from the following source.

"The anti-Messiah will also proclaim himself to be God!

“He [the man of lawlessness] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.” (2 Thess. 2:4)"

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that would be the AoD?

Such already happened several times over in 70 AD, with both Jewish zealots and Roman legions profaning the temple grounds

John 1720 said:

Mark 13:14 "So when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not" (let the reader understand), "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

• This did not happen in AD 70 when the Romans destroyed the temple.

Click to expand...

Luke 21
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Luke clarifies the description of the abomination of desolation in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 as referring to the pagan Roman armies, abominations to the Jews, advancing on the holy city of Jerusalem, signalling its impending desolation.

Eusebius and Epiphanius describe the miraculous escape and preservation of Jerusalem's Christian community.

Eusebius (AD 325)
"But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella. " (History of the Church 3:5:3)

"The whole body, however, of the church at Jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation, given to men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city, and dwelt at a certain town beyond the Jordan, called Pella. Here those that believed in Christ, having removed from Jerusalem, as if holy men had entirely abandoned the royal city itself, and the whole land of Judea; the divine justice, for their crimes against Christ and his apostles finally overtook them, totally destroying the whole generation of these evildoers form the earth. (Eusebius, 3:5.)

"For when the city was about to be captured and sacked by the Romans, all the disciples were warned beforehand by an angel to remove from the city, doomed as it was to utter destruction. On migrating from it they settled at Pella, the town already indicated, across the Jordan. It is said to belong to Decapolis (de Mens. et Pond., 15).

"Now this sect of Nazarenes exists in Beroea in Coele-Syria, and in Decapolis in the district of Pella, and in Kochaba of Basanitis-- called Kohoraba in Hebrew. For thence it originated after the migration from Jerusalem of all the disciples who resided at Pella, Christ having instructed them to leave Jerusalem and retire from it on account of the impending siege. It was owing to this counsel that they went away, as I have said, to reside for a while at Pella" (Haer 29:7).

Epiphanius (AD 375)
"The Nazoraean sect exists in Beroea near Coele Syria, in the Decapolis near the region of Pella, and in Bashan in the place called Cocaba, which in Hebrew is called Chochabe. That is where the sect began, when all the disciples were living in Pella after they moved from Jerusalem, since Christ told them to leave Jerusalem and withdraw because it was about to be besieged. For this reason they settled in Peraea and there, as I said, they lived. This is where the Nazoraean sect began." (Panarion 29:7:7-8)

"For when the city was about to be captured and sacked by the Romans, all the disciples were warned beforehand by an angel to remove from the city, doomed as it was to utter destruction. On migrating from it they settled at Pella, the town already indicated, across the Jordan. It is said to belong to Decapolis " (On Weights and Measures 15)

John 1720 said:

Hi John,
I think you raise a legitimate issue but not one that is impossible to overcome. I believe a physical (3rd) temple being rebuilt in Jerusalem was understood as prophecy by the early Christians, post AD 70 of course. These 3rd and 4th generation Christians also clearly understood that Christ was the true 3rd temple, not built by human hands but Emmanuel, and yet still comprised with the Holy of Holies, the Court of Israel, and the Court of the Gentiles; all per God's design. The future temple would therefore be only a 3rd physical undertaking and antithetical to the work of Christ, the stone the builders rejected but which has become the chief cornerstone of the temple, which God has opened to all nations. (Note: Herod's temple, mentioned in John 2:20 was, for all its earthly magnificence as a wonder of the world, merely an enhancement of Zerubbabel's more diminutive work that God had truly blessed.)
As to the antichrist, the early Church believed he would come from the tribe of Dan; they also believed he would indeed make himself High Priest. I often wondered that why they claimed they would make him so, with no record of being from the Levitical line. However, as to the line being impossible to achieve, even if you do believe that is necessary requirement, I suggest a three letter acronym might resolve the alleged problem of the priestly line - "DNA".
Excerpts from the eschatological commentaries of Hippolytus AD 170-235.

• 
  In conclusion, this seems to indicate the leaders of the ancient Church understood the prophesies and warning of the Apostles well. Relative to that understanding, we see that understanding included:
  1. the return of the Jewish people to their homeland
  2. the reclamation of the ancient state of Israel
  3. the physical rebuilding of the ancient temple
  4. the reinstitution of the priesthood, which would ultimately honor the charismatic beloved man, who ultimately will deceive many, and is in fact the very son of perdition.
  • Mark 13:22 “For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

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Jews already tried to rebuild a third temple in the 4th century AD, under emperor Julian the apostate

it was destroyed by an earthquake in about 360 AD

so even if yet another attempt is made, it would actually be the FOURTH temple

I do kinda wish i too could have so many strike threes and fours and fives and such -- must be nice to get so many "reset and start overs", no matter the result (Eleazar ben Jair, Simon bar Kochba, third temple under Julian) absolutely nobody cares and just pretends nothing happened, no Divine Judgement was demonstrated ...

Eleazar ben Jair, 70 AD, strike one
Alexandrian rebellion, 112 AD, strike two
Simon bar Kochba, 136 AD, strike three
third temple under Julian, 360 AD, strike four
fourth temple, 21st century AD...

even the lowest forms of earth life have basic capacity for pattern recognition & trend extrapolation

if at first you don't succeed, try and try again...

guess it comes down to, will God in heaven try and try again, too?

(or, change His mind and endorse it this time, not up to me, but what if Jesus was given so many extra chances?)

John 1720 said:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-17
Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?

• This did not happen in AD 70 when the Romans destroyed the temple.

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Paul was referring to an impostor who would situate himself, and arrogate spiritual authority, within the spiritual temple of the believer, collectively the Church. In his epistles, Paul refers to the temple exclusively from a spiritual perspective (“naos” in the Greek). The early Church recognized the existing imperial Roman empire as “he who letteth (withholdeth)”, i.e. the restraining influence forestalling the emergence of the man of sin.

Paul's inspired prescience saw fulfillment in the Roman papacy, which emerged from the dissolution of the imperial Roman empire, which claimed ultimate and complete spiritual authority within the Church, and which ultimately apostasized into the man of sin claiming to be "God on the earth".

The temple is the body of Christ. The Antichrist that arose in the temple is the Papacy.

No Jewish temple will be built.

David Cabrera said:

Jesus prophecied the destruction of the Second Temple for a reason, the unfaithful Jews aren't believers and even if they build a temple, it will not be the Temple of God since God will not be present there.

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You are missing the point. Jesus said that when you see these things begin to happen - then look up your redemption draws near.

That the Jews are getting closer to rebuilding their temple, which the abomination of desolation will be placed - that is a sign for us to look up, our redemption draws near.

Our redemption is the rapture.

Douggg said:

That the Jews are getting closer to rebuilding their temple, which the abomination of desolation will be placed -

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From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "


Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.



Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:


Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.


Joh 10:22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.

John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.


The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.


Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the exact same warning to flee from Judea to the mountains in the second verse of each Gospel.

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Josephus said:

For the longest time Christian theologians thought G-d was done with the Jews. And then He gave them back the Land of Israel. For the longest time Christian theologians think a third temple isn't part of G-d's plan and sanctity, yet when it happens...

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How many times does Lord Rothschild give God credit for creating the modern State of Israel, in the presentation below?


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JohnB445 said:

the building of a third temple is a reality that is occuring.

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Oh really? As far as I can tell the Dome of the Rock is still on the Temple Mount.

The scary thing about this is how many Christians beleive it’s part of Bible prophecy. Some Jewish people may build a temple but it will be nothing more in the eyes of God than a Mormon Temple, a Masonic lodge, an ornate Catholic Church building. The only danger in it that would arouse the ire of the almighty is if millions of Christians get further into the end times delusions than they already are. And no, there will be no political figure called the anti-Chris that takes over the world. Period. Temple or no temple. People are making themselves out to be false prophets with all this garbage and Beleivers everywhere have been robbed of a scriptural vision for the future because of it.

It’s about time people started to learn once more about the 100s of chapters of Bible prophecy regarding this age of promise we now live in. So they can labor with God in his long term plans for the earth instead of against those plans. Prophecy like this:
How The Nations Are Blessed