Testing Claims: Revelation 2:2

[CaliforniaJosiah]

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I (Jesus) know that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not and have found them false." Revelation 2:2


Many persons, congregations and denominations make claims. Some are remarkable and perhaps self-serving.

They may claim to be specially inspired or infallible, they may claim to be an apostle or a vicar of Christ, they may claim to be the sole interpreter or sole arbiter, they may claim to have an unaccountable gift of prophecy.


Jesus commends the Ephesians for "testing" claims - and in this case, finding them false.
Since we still have LOTS of claims going around, how are we to "test" them?


What or who is our rule?
What or who arbitrates according to that rule?
How can we work against self-authentication?



Thank you.


- Josiah

 

[willard3]

Well, I would use the standard argument that Jesus founded the CC, but that'll get slaughtered by the hardliners...

We could try praying about it...and hoping that presuppositions don't affect us...I don't know, that's a hard question.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Little note...


Of course, Jesus made some mighty claims.
He quoted from God's Holy Scriptures over 50 times. He performed great and mighty wonders - for example, feeing 5000 men from 5 barley loaves and 2 small fish. He rose from the dead and make some 11 resurrection appearances to several thousand people.


Maybe we could agree to place Jesus in a somewhat different category? But it might be that some would see some insights into the things Jesus provided. Clearly, He did not simply insist that He was correct because He was correct and so He was correct.


Let's perhaps focus primarily on the claims made today, and how to "test" that in such a way as to avoid self-authentication and hopefully also gain the praise of Jesus as did the Ephesians.


Thank you.

 

[Montanaman]

Accusing someone's denomination of making unsubstantiated claims, ("self-claims") when all you've done is dismiss or ignore or obfuscate the evidence is dishonest. Continuing the ridiculous red herrings and strawmen is appalling.

 

[Montanaman]

The way to test claims is through reason and an examination of the evidence provided. Here's the kicker, though: this stuff isn't science. It's more like poetry. Something is going to be "more convincing" or "less convincing," but it's never going to be absolutely proven.

It's the same thing with certain crimes--all the pieces may be there: the person, the motive, even the weapon. But what we don't have is a video of the actual crime taking place. Those elements are enough for a conviction.

So, at the bottom of all your disagreements, Josiah, you're still looking for a proof text. For all the lofty speculations about arbitration, etc., you're still looking for verses in the Bible that say This is X, or That is Y.

Uh uh. You don't even rely on the Bible that way for your own beliefs, whatever they may be. As TheresaLittleFlower masterfully pointed out, Protestants apply an infuriating double standard to Catholics in this regard--they don't need an explicit proof text for everything they believe, (and a list of those non-explicitly-proof-texted-beliefs can easily be provided), but they almost universally INSIST that Catholics provide explicit proof texts for everything we believe.

It's so condescending. Frankly, I'm getting sick of it.

 

[icxn]

...
Since we still have LOTS of claims going around, how are we to "test" them?

What or who is our rule?
What or who arbitrates according to that rule?
How can we work against self-authentication?

Thank you.

- Josiah

The answer I would give as an OC is, "Come and see."

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Accusing someone's denomination of making unsubstantiated claims, ("self-claims") when all you've done is dismiss or ignore or obfuscate the evidence is dishonest. Continuing the ridiculous red herrings and strawmen is appalling.

So, is it your position that it's wrong to "test" claims?
Why then does Jesus commend the Ephesians for doing just that?


Is it your position that we must accept whatever is said or claimed by any and all, to "test" is ridiculous and appalling? How then can we conclude that any teacher is in error or is correct? How, then, can we reject Joseph Smith? Are you saying it's impossible to do as Jesus commends the Ephesians? Are you embracing total relativism? Are you saying that we simply must accept whatever anyone claims?

How do you suggest that we "test" as Jesus commends here, and what is the best way to avoid self-authentication in that process? Or are you concluding any such effort is "ridiculous" and Jesus is commending the Ephesians for something they should not have done?


Thank you.


Pax!


- Josiah



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[Montanaman]

So, is it your position that it's wrong to "test" claims?
Why then does Jesus commend the Ephesians for doing just that?

Not at all. Definitely test claims. Do it with reason, an examination of the evidence, and with as much humility as you can muster.

Is it your position that we must accept whatever is said or claimed by any and all, to "test" is ridiculous and appalling?

No, that is obviously ridiculous.

How then can we conclude that any teacher is in error or is correct? How, then, can we reject Joseph Smith?

Look to my first answer.

Are you saying it's impossible to do as Jesus commends the Ephesians? Are you embracing total relativism?

How do you get so many things so backward? You accuse the Church of encouraging some sort of radical individualistic interpretation of the Bible, but most of your Protestant compadres have been accusing the Church of the opposite for generations. Now you're accusing ME of relativism? LOL! That's something I have never been accused of, and for me, that's a badge of honor.

How do you suggest that we "test" as Jesus commends here, and what is the best way to avoid self-authentication in that process? Or are you concluding any such effort is "ridiculous" and Jesus is commending the Ephesians for something they should not have done?

Let's cut to the chase--are you just trying to get everyone to admit that referring to scripture alone is "the norm?" If so, sorry, I disagree. Scripture is useful, helpful, or profitable, but it's not the only way we come to know if something is true.

How else? History--by looking at how our forefathers understood something. And also by our God-given reason. He didn't give us minds in order passively look up proof texts.

And yes, authority. Some people have more of it than others. This lofty idea that we're all our own infallible self-interpreters is complete nonsense, and the failure of which is easily checked in the Yellow Pages under "Churches."

 

[The Prokeimenon!]

Accusing someone's denomination of making unsubstantiated claims, ("self-claims") when all you've done is dismiss or ignore or obfuscate the evidence is dishonest. Continuing the ridiculous red herrings and strawmen is appalling.

100 points for using "obfuscate"!

Rdr Moses

 

[Montanaman]

100 points for using "obfuscate"!

Rdr Moses

I dun finished the most skoolin' in all my famlee. I gradeated 4th grd!

 

[S Walch]

Well, when Paul talked to people in Synagogues as recorded in Acts, where did the hearers go to to test His words?

I'll give you a hint:

Acts 17:11
And the people of Berea were more open-minded than those in Thessalonica, and they listened eagerly to Paul’s message. They searched the Scriptures day after day to see if Paul and Silas were teaching the truth.

 

[icxn]

Well, when Paul talked to people in Synagogues as recorded in Acts, where did the hearers go to to test His words?

I'll give you a hint:

Acts 17:11
And the people of Berea were more open-minded than those in Thessalonica, and they listened eagerly to Paul’s message. They searched the Scriptures day after day to see if Paul and Silas were teaching the truth.

... and having searched the scriptures the Bereans became (and still are) Orthodox.

 

[ETide]

... and having searched the scriptures the Bereans became (and still are) Orthodox.

R O F L

 

[UBERROGO]

So, is it your position that it's wrong to "test" claims?
Why then does Jesus commend the Ephesians for doing just that?


Is it your position that we must accept whatever is said or claimed by any and all, to "test" is ridiculous and appalling? How then can we conclude that any teacher is in error or is correct? How, then, can we reject Joseph Smith? Are you saying it's impossible to do as Jesus commends the Ephesians? Are you embracing total relativism? Are you saying that we simply must accept whatever anyone claims?

How do you suggest that we "test" as Jesus commends here, and what is the best way to avoid self-authentication in that process? Or are you concluding any such effort is "ridiculous" and Jesus is commending the Ephesians for something they should not have done?


Thank you.


Pax!


- Josiah



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I can't figure out how you came to that conclusion Josiah. Thats not even close to what he said.

 

[UBERROGO]

... and having searched the scriptures the Bereans became (and still are) Orthodox.

Well played sir.

 

[FijianBeliever]

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I (Jesus) know that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not and have found them false." Revelation 2:2


Many persons, congregations and denominations make claims. Some are remarkable and perhaps self-serving.

They may claim to be specially inspired or infallible, they may claim to be an apostle or a vicar of Christ, they may claim to be the sole interpreter or sole arbiter, they may claim to have an unaccountable gift of prophecy.


Jesus commends the Ephesians for "testing" claims - and in this case, finding them false.
Since we still have LOTS of claims going around, how are we to "test" them?


What or who is our rule?
What or who arbitrates according to that rule?
How can we work against self-authentication?



Thank you.


- Josiah

I agree. I believe a previous poster quoted Acts 17 ( the Bereans - orthodox???). that is the standard and the rule we must follow.

Everything must be found true scripturally. Note that they searched scriptures. Makes me wonder about the other standards employed in Christianity today.

We must ensure that all teaching, doctrine etc is in line with scripture, and that above all, the Holy Spirit is guiding us, as He is sent to arbitrate and guard us against self-authentication. He is sent to all who believe, to guide them into the truths about the Kingdom of Heaven.

I would like to add one more point to this.

We must make sure about the things we believe. Testing them is an integral part of ensuring we beileve only the truth and nothing else. After all, our eternal salvation, depends on what we believe now.

 

[Rhamiel]

to posted by ICXN
"The answer I would give as an OC is, "Come and see."'
Taste and see the goodness of the Lord. The Catholic Church loves it when people get and intrest in testing what they think. Go back into history,see how the "early church" really operated, look at the lives of the apostels and how they lived the good news.

 

[S Walch]

Go back into history,see how the "early church" really operated, look at the lives of the apostels and how they lived the good news.

Been there, done that, not felt compeled to go to a Roman Catholic Church anytime soon.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

I agree. I believe a previous poster quoted Acts 17 ( the Bereans - orthodox???). that is the standard and the rule we must follow.

I do not doubt the sincerity of a Mormon.
And typically, what they teach dogmaticly is not specificialy contrary to Scripture, but most Christians would conclude that these teachings are false. So, IMHO, there must be some standard (Canon) OUTSIDE and ABOVE them to which they are ACCOUNTABLE. IMHO, a teacher (person, congregation or denominataion) simply saying, "I'm right because I'm right and my teachings are right and my teachings confirm that my teachings are my teachings so my teachings are correct" doesn't quite cut it. Self arbitrating self according to the norm of the teachings of self isn't a very good method of accountability.



Thank you.


Pax!


- Josiah



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[icxn]

Well played sir.

I may not be from Berea but I'm Greek and Orthodox just like the Bereans.