Temporal Salvation?

FreeGrace2 said:

The failure to discern truth reveals failure of being filled with the Spirit.

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Actually... while I understand (and agree in part) with what
you said, you must remember that Jesus PROMISED that some
of the SAVED (indwelt/born again/regenerated) produce "fruit"
(both good behavior and correct doctrine) thirty-fold and
sixty-fold and one hundred fold.

I remember about 50 years ago saying the SAME THING
you said above and a very wise saint explained to me that
some "sheep" are given MORE than other "sheep". That
does NOT make the producers of thirty-fold unsaved "tares"



Jim

5thKingdom said:

Yes...
(1) Jesus came to save "His Sheep"
(2) If someone is NOT "His Sheep" he was NEVER MEANT
to be saved.

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You need to read post #1016. And 1 John 2:2 and Titus 2:11.

This is not difficult:

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One wouldn't think so given the verses I've given.

If someone lives and dies a Moslem... we an know that,
by the Providence of God, he was NEVER MEANT to be part
of "His Sheep".... because Jesus loses NONE of His Sheep.

Click to expand...

Wrong. Many many muslims have come to Christ.

Now... if you say you do not believe in the Providence of God
that is a different issue. I just ASSUME all "Christians" believe
in a Sovereign God.

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God in His sovereignty GAVE mankind a free will to choose to either believe in Him or not.

Then you are saying EVERYONE had their sins PAID
and nobody goes to hell... I understand the "universalist"
heresy. And you are entitled to believe it.

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Uh, no, I never said that. I did say that Christ did pay for the sins of everyone, but that doesn't lead to universalism, as you seem to think. By paying for everyone's sins, Jesus purchased the free gift of eternal life that is for everyone. But only those who receive that gift will be saved.

Since the Bible never says a sin must be paid TWICE,
all sins Jesus PAID are paid in full.

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Yep.

No, there are the saved "wheat/sheep" sown by God and
destined to eternal life and the unsaved "tares/goats" sown
by Satan and (as children of Satan) destined for the same
FIRE prepared for Satan [Mat25:41]

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And all have the freedom to choose to believe what God says or not.

You #3 (all the sheep) is the same as (#1) His sheep.

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In a passage where Jesus noted:
1. sheep that are His
2. those who were not His sheep
3. THE sheep.

It should be obvious that "the sheep" refers to all of them, both His and those not His.

"THE sheep" must belong to Jesus or Satan and the Bible
NEVER says "the sheep" belong to Satan.

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No, Jesus Himself said He would die for THE sheep. He NEVER said He would die for His sheep. But I'm sure you sure wish He did.

BTW.... if MAN decides the MAN is the author and God the finisher
Is that what the Bible teaches? If MAN decides... it's a "boaster
gospel"... since that was such a good decision.
Jim

Click to expand...

You just don't understand the Word. It's God's plan to save those who believe. And belief is a choice. No verse says that God is the Source of man's believing.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

As you can see, I have verses that actually SAY what I believe, unlike yourself.

5thKingdom said:

Please read Ephesians 2 carefully.
DEAD MEN do not "volunteer" for anything... they are DEAD

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You have a strange way of reading Scripture. The "dead men" are quite physically ALIVE and certainly CAN and DO things. Like believing.

And I can prove it from Scripture, unlike yourself.

John 5:25 - Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

No doubt about that... but ONLY those regenerated
can believe.

Click to expand...

Then why can't any Calvinist prove it from the Word?

And Eph 2:5 and 8 REFUTE that idea.

I hope you do not believe Jesus PAID for the sins of
people who lived and died as Moslems, Buddhists, Hindus,
Atheists, Agnostics, Humanists, Pagans and Satanists...
these people have no Savior.

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How silly. Many of these kinds of people have come to Christ for salvation.

5thKingdom said:

No... I do not understand that "could not see/understand
really means CAN "see/understand".

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Why didn't you answer my question then. I asked, when you close your own eyes, can you see or not? But maybe you just don't have the "eyes" to see (discern).

Not only are there MANY verses that teach MOST MEN
were NEVER MEANT to be saved there are also many verses
that teach MOST MEN are not going to be saved.... and verses
that say Jesus loses NONE of "His sheep".

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It is a huge delusion to believe that any verse says that anyone was "never meant to be saved".

You do understand the meaning of NONE don't you.
It means that EVERY MAN that was MEANT to be saved is saved.
This is not a difficult concept.

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God meant to save all believers. But Christ died for all people so what whosoever did believe would be saved.

It' really not that difficult.

Doug said:

Jim's "never meant to be saved" rhetoric can only be understood correctly by the Reformed concept (regardless of his refusal and objections to association with any named form of Calvinism) of soteriology. God, from the foundation of the world, never meant for some, indeed most, to go to heaven, but always meant for some to go to heaven. These are universal mandates that reveal the personal motivations and desires of God's thinking, which in turn tells us something about the character of God.

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Nice strawman Doug.
How about this: Jims "never meant to be saved" is just
a REFLECTION of:

(1) The fact that ALL MEN are born spiritutally DEAD
and destined to eternal hell and

(2) God elected to save SOME of those men and

(3) Christ promised to lose NONE of the elect.

(4) All those not saved were NEVER elected
(never meant to be saved)

A non-Calvinistic soteriology would not ever use those terms, because our view of God cannot abide a characterization that would allow a God who is Love to deliberately prevent some from ever having the opportunity for redemption

Click to expand...

So you are teaching that God elected EVERYONE to be
part of "His sheep"?

No... you are not claiming that.
Instead, you are claiming (but afraid to declare it)
that MAN chooses whether to save himself or not.


Jim

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TibiasDad said:

Jim's "never meant to be saved" rhetoric can only be understood correctly by the Reformed concept (regardless of his refusal and objections to association with any named form of Calvinism) of soteriology. God, from the foundation of the world, never meant for some, indeed most, to go to heaven, but always meant for some to go to heaven. These are universal mandates that reveal the personal motivations and desires of God's thinking, which in turn tells us something about the character of God.

Click to expand...

Nice strawman Doug.

How about this: Jims "never meant to be saved" is just
a REFLECTION of:

(1) The fact that ALL MEN are born spiritually DEAD
and destined to eternal hell and

(2) God elected to save SOME of those men and

(3) Christ promised to lose NONE of the elect.

(4) All those not saved were NEVER elected
(never meant to be saved)

A non-Calvinistic soteriology would not ever use those terms, because our view of God cannot abide a characterization that would allow a God who is Love to deliberately prevent some from ever having the opportunity for redemption, and that, before creation of mankind. There is a sever disconnect somewhere that can bide such a premise. As a general rule, no one is ever meant to have no opportunity of salvation. Even Judas could have been redeemed had he not killed himself. Doug

Click to expand...

So you are teaching that God elected EVERYONE to be
part of "His sheep"?


When Scripture says Jesus came to save "His people"
that included everyone ever born... and He FAILED to do
what He came to do?


No... you are not claiming that.
Instead, you are claiming (but afraid to declare it)
that MAN chooses whether to save himself or not.


Jim

5thKingdom said:

Actually... while I understand (and agree in part) with what
you said, you must remember that Jesus PROMISED that some
of the SAVED (indwelt/born again/regenerated) produce "fruit"
(both good behavior and correct doctrine) thirty-fold and
sixty-fold and one hundred fold.

I remember about 50 years ago saying the SAME THING
you said above and a very wise saint explained to me that
some "sheep" are given MORE than other "sheep". That
does NOT make the producers of thirty-fold unsaved "tares"



Jim

Click to expand...

I have some issue with the view that failure to discern truth = failure to be filled with Holy Spirit.
It`s same thing as saying you aren`t saved if you misunderstand some truth.

How much truth does it take to get saved? Does knowing the most truth make one the best Christian?
I`ve known and know people who aren`t anywhere close to my level of Bible knowledge and yet they are better Christians then I am.

And what of all the huge variety of Christian beliefs? I know a lot of it is wrong but I have no doubt that in spite the failure many of them have faith in Jesus that is very real.

I`m real reluctant to say in my heart who is saved and who isn't.

5thKingdom said: ↑
Now, I am very aware that unsaved tares do not LIKE the
Gospel and they change the proclamation of of the finished
work of Christ into a "free offer" of salvation to all men.

BNR32FAN said:

Yeah and that’s what the church taught since the very first century. You may have heard of it. It was called the Catholic Church. Did you know that the word Catholic actually means universal?

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Jesus did not teach a "free offer" when He said
NO MAN can come to Him unless the Father first "draws" them
and ALL MEN the Father draws "shall come" to Him and He
will lose NONE of those men. [John 6]


So, when you PRETEND that this is a NEW teaching then
you are saying John 6 is new to the Gospel. And that does
not even pass the giggle test.

So next time you talk about changing the gospel you might want to actually take a look at what the early church taught. Your theology didn’t exist until a little over 500 years ago my friend.

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I do not think you can get any EARLIER than what JESUS taught
in Mark 4:11-12 (some men are NOT MEANT to be "forgiven")
or what JESUS taught in John 6 (that ALL His sheep are saved)


So... when we speak of "changing the Gospel" we are saying
that you "changed" the monergistic Gospel of Jesus into a NEW
synergistic gospel where every man born is part of "His sheep",
but MOST are lost. Jesus FAILED to do what He came for.


You "change" the monergistic Gospel that GOD decides
who is saved into a synergistic heresy that MAN decides
who is saved.


Yeah... you have a real solid argument there.


I would have more respect and take people more seriously
if they were honest enough to JUST SAY PLAINLY that they
believe that MAN decides who is saved (God decides nothing)



Jim

RickReads said:

I have some issue with the view that failure to discern truth = failure to be filled with Holy Spirit.

Click to expand...

No, saying that some SAVED sheep understand MORE truth
(Scripture) than other SAVED sheep is NOT saying that either
is not regenerated/born again/indwelt.

It`s same thing as saying you aren`t saved if you misunderstand some truth.

Click to expand...

You are clearly NOT UNDERSTANDING my words.
I am declaring that some SAVED people produce MORE "fruit"
than other SAVED people... this is the opposite of your words
above.

And what of all the huge variety of Christian beliefs? I know a lot of it is wrong but I have no doubt that in spite the failure many of them have faith in Jesus that is very real.

Click to expand...

So, the question is about heresy.
Does a heretic enter into the "Kingdom of God"?


Gal 5:20
Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, HERESIES, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


Now... we can discuss the difference between some men
knowing less Biblical Truth than others. However, clearly,
there is a line (called "heresy") which SHOWS who is unsaved.


And, in fact, I would HOPE that a man teaching HERESY
in your church would be (a) identified and (b) rebuked by
the elders and (c) expelled if he refuses to repent... since
this is what the church is commanded to do with heretics.


Jim

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WordSword said:

The most understandable and encouraging attribute concerning salvation is that of its permanency, after all, it is called “eternal salvation” (Heb 5:9). What part of salvation is temporary, seeing that one of the meanings of redemption is that of being saved from “eternal damnation” (Mar 3:29). Is it a sensible truism that one can be eternally saved and then not eternally saved? Thus being temporarily saved from “everlasting punishment” (Mat 25:46) is clearly a concept of an oxymoron?

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There is actually quite a lot of legitimate concerns over the translations of "eternal" in the new testament (and the word used for "damnation", but I won't get into that here). Other Greek texts from this era seem to use the word to mean something like "a state of being lasting a really long time, but not necessarily forever". It's where we get the word 'aeon' from, although it's lost it's connection to a state of being in that word. There was actually a Greek word that meant "endless", but that wasn't used in the passages we're concerned with, and the question is "why not?". About salvation, a more explicit word is used in the phrase "his kingdom shall have no end".

I'm not sure what to believe about it, but I have a hard time seeing why a loving God would create someone with full knowledge that they will be tortured forever.

FreeGrace2 said:

Why didn't you answer my question then. I asked, when you close your own eyes, can you see or not? But maybe you just don't have the "eyes" to see (discern).

Click to expand...

Your question is a strawman if "seeing" is something that
is spiritually discerned and only given to "His sheep".
I do not argue about strawmen.

It is a huge delusion to believe that any verse says that anyone was "never meant to be saved".

Click to expand...

When JESUS says some men are NOT "His sheep"...
that means they were NEVER MEANT to be saved because
Jesus came to save "His sheep".


When JESUS says some mean are NEVER MEANT to be
"converted" or "forgiven" that means they will be spending
eternity in hell.


When JESUS says some men (in the church)
are unsaved "tares/goats" sown by Satan and destined
to the same fire prepared for Satan and his demons...
that means they were NEVER MEANT to be saved.


When JESUS says all those OUTSIDE the church,
who reject Him and the Gospel are destined to hell...
that means they were NEVER MEANT to be saved...
or God FAILED in His purpose to save them.


The PEOPLE mentioned in Galatians 5:20-21 who
cannot enter into the "Kingdom of God" were either
(1) NEVER MEANT to be saved or
(2) meant to be saved, but Jesus FAILED to save them


The PEOPLE mentioned in 1Co 6:9-10 who cannot
enter into the "Kingdom of Heaven" were either
(1) NEVER MEANT to be saved or
(2) meant to be saved, but Jesus FAILED to save them


Do you think that ALL THE JEWS in the OT were
meant to be saved... and God FAILED to save them?


Do you think that ALL THE GENTILES in the OT were
meant to be saved... and God FAILED to save them?


No... I will tell you the PROBLEM:
You follow a gospel where MAN DECIDES who is saved.
I follow a gospel where GOD DECIDES who is saved
(and NONE of them are lost)


It is really as simple as that.


Jim

Marc Perry said:

I'm not sure what to believe about it, but I have a hard time seeing why a loving God would create someone with full knowledge that they will be tortured forever.

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God never did.
God CREATED Adam and Eve.
We can assume they are saved.

All of those born spiritually DEAD and slaves in
Satan's Kingdom are destined to eternal hell.
That is WHY God "elected" to save some.

Are you arguing God is unjust to not save ALL MEN?

Jim
.

BNR32FAN said:

I don’t disagree that some were never meant to be saved I disagree on the reason they were not meant to be saved. They weren’t saved because they chose not to believe and repent.

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To argue that men are not saved because they "chose"
to not believe/repent is saying that MAN DECIDES who is saved,
the Bible says GOD DECIDES who is saved.


What makes you think man can "believe" or "repent"
BEFORE regeneration?


Is "faith" a GIFT of God (given to who GOD DECIDES)
or is "faith" something men generate?


Jim
.

.

5thKingdom said:

Doug:
To say that all men are born in sin is not to say that all men are thereby necessarily condemned and never meant to be saved.


Jim
To say all men are born spiritually DEAD does mean that.
A DEAD man cannot "decide" or "choose" to become
translated from Death to life...

Click to expand...

1) How does spiritually dead mean we are necessarily condemned and never meant to be saved?

2) What do you define dead as?

Doug

FreeGrace2 said:

What you'll see if "all people", "everyone" "all men". NOTHING about Jew or Gentiie.

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So you actually think God MEANT to save all/most Gentiles
during the OT Kingdom? Well... God FAILED almost 100%
to do so.

There are NO verses that say that anyone is elected to savlation. Zero for those who don't understand the word "no".
If there are any, you should be able to easily refute me. I invite you to do that.

Click to expand...

Eph 1:4-5
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


Listen, the problem is simple.
You want to pretend the Bible teaches that MAN DECIDES
who will be saved. But the Bible actually teaches that
GOD DECIDES who will be saved.


It is really as simple as that.
You WANT a synergistic gospel while the Bible
teaches a monergistic Gospel.


You want a BROAD WAY for Christians to follow (and MANY do)
but the Bible says the narrow way (FEW find) leads to life.


You are entitled to follow whatever gospel you want.
But you are contradicting SCRIPTURE when you pretend
that (any) repentance comes before regeneration.


Jim
.

TibiasDad said:

1) How does spiritually dead mean we are necessarily condemned and never meant to be saved?

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It does not.
ALL MEN are born spiritually dead... that's why we have a Savior.
But Jesus was sent to save "His people" (His sheep).
And He loses NONE.


Since hell is heavily populated...
are those "His sheep" that He FAILED to save?
Or were they NEVER MEANT to be "His sheep"?
It has to be one or the other.

2) What do you define dead as?

Click to expand...

The same as Ephesians 2:1-9


Jim

5thKingdom said:

God never did.
God CREATED Adam and Eve.
We can assume they are saved.

All of those born spiritually DEAD and slaves in
Satan's Kingdom are destined to eternal hell.
That is WHY God "elected" to save some.

Are you arguing God is unjust to not save ALL MEN?

Jim
.

Click to expand...

I'm not really sure where your getting all your theology from in that statement. The only biblical thing I guess is "eternal hell", but the English and Latin translations for those two words can be argued against. I guess the "elected some" has something to do with Revelations, but elsewhere it is mentioned that every knee will bow to Jesus, "all in all", "nothing can separate us from the love of God", and things like that.

As far as what I believe, I am of the belief that I know nothing.

Marc Perry said:

I'm not really sure where your getting all your theology from in that statement.

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First, God PROMISED Adam in the day he ate he would die.
We know that is not a physical death... since he lived on,
and we know it was a spiritual death because of passages
like Ephesians 2:1-9 (and many others)

The only biblical thing I guess is "eternal hell", but the English and Latin translations for those two words can be argued against.

Click to expand...

Are you serious?
Does this help any?


Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

I guess the "elected some" has something to do with Revelations,

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Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?


Mat_24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


Mat_24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.


Mat_24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


I am not aware of any verse in Revelation that meantions
the word "elect" however there are several passages that
talk about the Final Harvest in Revelation, as well as in
Matt 25:10 and ALL those passages are talking about
the LAST SAINTS (last "elect") on earth.


You can do a word search for "elect" and find maybe
two dozen passages talking about SAVED MEN and no others.

but elsewhere it is mentioned that every knee will bow to Jesus, "all in all", "nothing can separate us from the love of God", and things like that.

Click to expand...

Of course, you cannot HOPE to understand the MEANING
of such a passage if you cannot discern the CONTEXT
of the word "us" that cannot be separated from
the love of God.


The Bible separates all (NT) men into three (3) groups:


(1) The saved "wheat/sheep" in the church, sown by God
and destined to eternal life.


(2) the unsaved "tares/goats" in the church sown by Satan
and (as "children of Satan") destined to the SAME ETERNAL FIRE
prepared for Satan and his demons [Mat 25:41]


(3) all the lost souls OUTSIDE of the church like Jews and
Moslems, Buddhists, Hindus, Atheists, Agnostics, Humanists,
Pagans, Satanists, etc


The CONTEXT of the word "us" you mention above includes
group (#1) and ONLY group (#1).


Jim
.

5thKingdom said:

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

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I already briefly mentioned the common objection to the translation of 'everlasting' used here. There are numerous 'scholarly' papers written on this topic that go into way more detail than I can provide.

The quotes you provided about the 'elect some' don't seem to imply that only they will eventually be saved, which is what I thought you were implying. I referred to Revelations because I thought you were saying something about the 100,000.

Your argument about 'us' seems like a good argument. Elsewhere in Romans, Paul seems to use the Greek word used there to refer to himself and the people he was talking to, like our common usage of the word, or perhaps the people in the church like you were implying. The second part of the usage of 'us', in your 3 point argument, is kind of a stretch. It kind of depends on how you interpret 'weeds' and 'wheat'. Does it mean purifying oneself which is an original sin and 'nobody is perfect' type argument? The actual word for word Greek translation of The Parable of the Weeds Explained, according to biblehub (which is an evangelical website), ends with 'those who practice lawlessness'. The salvation by works thing can appear as a common theme in Jesus' parables, and it seems like you don't believe that so you probably can find your own way of explaining it. Also it uses the word 'eternal'.

Also, you made no mention of some of the verses the people who believe this way often quote.

1. 1 Corinthians 15:22
   • "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive."
2. 2 Peter 3:9
   • "The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance."
3. 1 Timothy 2:3–6
   • "This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for ALL men—the testimony given in its proper time."
4. 1 John 2:2
   • "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."
5. 1 Timothy 4:10
   • "For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe."
6. Romans 11:32
   • "For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."

Your best argument, I think, is that the verses refer to God giving all men a chance. But the 1 Corinthians 15:22, 1 John 2:2, and 1 Timothy 4:10 verses seem particularly hard to make that argument against. I was tempted not to include the 1 John quote in that list, but the root of the Greek used for 'our' happens to be the same used by Paul for 'us', so it seemed relevant.

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Why didn't you answer my question then. I asked, when you close your own eyes, can you see or not? But maybe you just don't have the "eyes" to see (discern).

5thKingdom said:

Your question is a strawman if "seeing" is something that is spiritually discerned and only given to "His sheep". I do not argue about strawmen.

Click to expand...

You do not argue because you do not see. My comment was related to your claim that "cannot see" is because the person "wasn't meant to see", which is ridiculous, as my comment proves.

So, go ahead and close your eyes and see if you can still see. That's the whole point.

The reason people "do not believe" is because they do NOT want to believe. They reject the information. It's all about one's choices.

When JESUS says some men are NOT "His sheep"...
that means they were NEVER MEANT to be saved because
Jesus came to save "His sheep".

Click to expand...

No it doesn't mean that. That's just YOUR opinion about it.

When JESUS says some mean are NEVER MEANT to be
"converted" or "forgiven" that means they will be spending
eternity in hell.

Click to expand...

Fallacy. Jesus NEVER EVER said that "some men are never meant to be converted or forgiven or saved. That is just YOUR opinion.

When JESUS says some men (in the church)
are unsaved "tares/goats" sown by Satan and destined
to the same fire prepared for Satan and his demons...
that means they were NEVER MEANT to be saved.

Click to expand...

Broken.record.

When JESUS says all those OUTSIDE the church,
who reject Him and the Gospel are destined to hell...
that means they were NEVER MEANT to be saved...
or God FAILED in His purpose to save them.

Click to expand...

Broken.record.

The PEOPLE mentioned in Galatians 5:20-21 who
cannot enter into the "Kingdom of God" were either
(1) NEVER MEANT to be saved or
(2) meant to be saved, but Jesus FAILED to save them

The PEOPLE mentioned in 1Co 6:9-10 who cannot
enter into the "Kingdom of Heaven" were either
(1) NEVER MEANT to be saved or
(2) meant to be saved, but Jesus FAILED to save them

Click to expand...

Quite the broken record.

Do you think that ALL THE JEWS in the OT were
meant to be saved... and God FAILED to save them?

Click to expand...

Yes and no.

Yes, ALL the Jews and ALL the Gentiles were given the opportunity to be saved.

And, no, God did not fail anyone. The offer was given, the choices were made.
Titus 2:11 refutes your notions.

Do you think that ALL THE GENTILES in the OT were
meant to be saved... and God FAILED to save them?

Click to expand...

See above.

No... I will tell you the PROBLEM:
You follow a gospel where MAN DECIDES who is saved.

Click to expand...

The actual problem here is that your opinions are very wrong.

The biblical gospel presents the plan of God, whereby salvation is offered to all, and those who believe it will be saved. All man decides is whether to believe what God says

I follow a gospel where GOD DECIDES who is saved
(and NONE of them are lost)

Click to expand...

How about that! We agree. Of course God decides who is saved. That's what I've been saying all along. 1 Cor 1:21 even says this. "God was pleased...to save those who believe". Black and white.

It is really as simple as that.
Jim

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Apparently not for you. By your very faulty claim about what my gospel is.

Hey, let me ask you a question.

If you were swimming and got a severe leg and stomach cramp, so that you couldn't swim or keep your head above water, and there was a lifeguard in easy distance, does your calling out for help mean that you saved yourself from drowning?