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I agree, we are saved when we believe, however it is the way Jesus means believe, not necessarily our post modern definition of believe.
JLB
No, I've already explained this verse to you many times. But you're just not listening.This is what you cannot prove from Scripture.
In fact, "abiding in Christ" is for bearing fruit, not getting or maintaining salvation. Just read John 15:1-7. It's all very clear.
What follows is what I posted, but shows up as what you post. Please learn how to format a post before posting.
I'm going to put quote marks around the following, and color it just to remind you of what I posted about your posts.
"You are guilty of projection. What you charge others, you are the one guilty of.
Inheriting eternal life is a reference to reward in eternity. But your theology has no place for rewards in heaven at all. In spite of the overwhelming evidence of reward for obedience throughout the Bible.
See? Even you agree with me. I've highlighted your own words that fully support what I claim about inheriting eternal life.
The last 4 words are ignored, since you can't find any evidence for them from Scripture.
Those believers who "have followed the Lord, faithfully, and not fallen away from Him, have not deserted Him in time of persecution" WILL absolutely receive eternal reward.
But eternal reward isn't related to "to save their life" in any way.
Except Jesus said nothing about your fantasy idea of "temporary salvation". There is no such thing in Scripture. I keep asking for such verses, and you keep failing to comply.
Sure. John 15:1-7 is about "bearing fruit", as I have just pointed out. Not getting or keeping salvation. Why you keep making that mistake is a wonder.
Bingo! Thanks for agreeing.
Quite a twisted view of Scripture.
In fact, those who "have believed" (note the tense; aorist=past), ARE sealed with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit that GUARANTEES the inheritance of the believer as God's possession for the day of redemption.
Eph 1:13,14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
2 Cor 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
These verses directly support and say what I claim. Unlike your claims.
No, you have the burden to prove that a believer who is sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who GUARANTEES the believer's inheritance for the day of redemption CAN BE UNSEALED.
So, before you try to present any more of your 'claims', where is the verse that teaches that sealed believers can become unsealed?
Nope. Doesn't say anything about any risk of being unsealed.
So, UNTIL you find any verse that specifically teaches that believers can become unsealed, you have no point.
What God seals CANNOT be unsealed.
Now, the ONLY WAY to refute my statement here is to find ANY verse that specifically says that the believer sealed with the Holy Spirit can be UNSEALED.
I know there aren't any such verses, but what verse do you think teaches such an idea?"
Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15
This is the end of your OSAS narrative.
“If ye continue in the faith” is just another identification of one who is truly reborn, same as that which manifests one is still an unbeliever and ceases from the hypocrisy (departs from a hypocritical profession): “if they had been of us, they would have continued” (1Jo 2:19). This is also the same for the “sower” parables. Only those who continue are reborn, and they are the only ones that are not hypocritical and never apostatize.As long as we continue in the faith, we continue in Christ.
And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23
if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel
They show they were never reconciled, or they would have continued unto to end.Those who depart from the faith, are no longer reconciled to Christ.
I'm curious about your understanding of Jesus' comment about the second soil in Luke 8:13. He said the soil "believed for a while". You've noted that "true faith" will not apostatize, yet His words were clear that the second soil did. In times of testing/temptation, the second soil ceased to believe.“If ye continue in the faith” is just another identification of one who is truly reborn, same as that which manifests one is still an unbeliever and ceases from the hypocrisy (departs from a hypocritical profession): “if they had been of us, they would have continued” (1Jo 2:19). This is also the same for the “sower” parables. Only those who continue are reborn, and they are the only ones that are not hypocritical and never apostatize.
They show they were never reconciled, or they would have continued unto to end.
Hi FG! The phrase "believe for a while" is a hyperbolic expression of "seem to believe," because common sense shows that one cannot claim they truly believe in Christ and then eventually say they truly do not believe. One can think they believe but can latter confirm they really don't, by revealing their hypocrisy.I'm curious about your understanding of Jesus' comment about the second soil in Luke 8:13. He said the soil "believed for a while". You've noted that "true faith" will not apostatize, yet His words were clear that the second soil did. In times of testing/temptation, the second soil ceased to believe.
Thanks.
I think it nonsensical to conceive that one could ever find a reason not to believe God after truly believing Him. The trip-up of the Enemy is in one not realizing that a hypocrite is not "departing from," "falling away from," etc. a genuine profession, having never been reborn, but from only looking like he was saved. Simplified, genuine believers remain believers and false believers remain false believers. You can't honestly say you truly have faith and truly be in possession of it if you eventually and ultimately manifest unbelief.
So, I assume you also mean we are Children of God "when we believe".
Do you mean we become Children of God the moment we first believe (this was my question)?
What do you think is meant in John 1:12 re: being given by Jesus the exousia to become Children of God?
Hi FG! The phrase "believe for a while" is a hyperbolic expression of "seem to believe," because common sense shows that one cannot claim they truly believe in Christ and then eventually say they truly do not believe. One can think they believe but can latter confirm they really don't, by revealing their hypocrisy.
Hi WS!Hi FG! The phrase "believe for a while" is a hyperbolic expression of "seem to believe," because common sense shows that one cannot claim they truly believe in Christ and then eventually say they truly do not believe.
Even believers can be hypocrites, so this statement appears to be an opinion, rather than fact.One can think they believe but can latter confirm they really don't, by revealing their hypocrisy.
I disagree. When Jesus said "every branch in Me", He wasn't referring to what people were "claiming", which is what you are saying that He meant. I don't see any such dots to connect.Everyone who has the appearance of being in Christ is shown so by their professing Him to others. So when Jesus said, "Every branch in Me" (Jn 15:2), it is in the sense that "everyone professing to be in Me," which is how all begin in Christianity. But the truth of it will soon be known to self and to all concerning whether or not the claim is genuine.
Well, Jesus gave us a reason in Luke 8:13 when He said "in time of 'peirasmos' fell away".I think it nonsensical to conceive that one could ever find a reason not to believe God after truly believing Him.
Chuck Templeton refutes your claim here.Simplified, genuine believers remain believers and false believers remain false believers.
Jesus said the second soil did, and Charles Templeton did. Just 2 examples out of many many others.You can't honestly say you truly have faith and truly be in possession of it if you eventually and ultimately manifest unbelief.
Pardon my eavesdropping, GDL, but I think the meaning of exousia in Jn 1:12 is not that we are not children at the point of saving faith, but that the journey now begun as a child of God is within our right to exercise our wills toward accomplishing the ultimate fulfillment of being a child of God, and/or choosing to remain in the vine or not. In other words, Christ alone can give us life and thus make us heirs of eternal life and children of God, but he also, in doing such, gives us the right to exercise our freedom of choice in what do do with what he has done for us!
Doug
Thanks you too. Just wanted to share this:I'm curious about your understanding of Jesus' comment about the second soil in Luke 8:13. He said the soil "believed for a while". You've noted that "true faith" will not apostatize, yet His words were clear that the second soil did. In times of testing/temptation, the second soil ceased to believe.
Thanks.
Thanks you too. Just wanted to share this:
"Which for a while believe:" their faith is a temporary one, like that of Simon Magus; which shows it is not true faith; for that is an abiding grace, Christ, who is the author, is the finisher of it, and prays for it, that it fail not. The Persic version renders it, "in the time of hearing they have faith"; and such sort of hearers there are, who, whilst they are hearing, assent to what they hear, but when they are gone, either forget it, or, falling into bad company, are prevailed upon to doubt of it, and disbelieve it. The Arabic version renders it, "they believe for a small time"; their faith do not continue long, nor their profession of it, both are soon dropped" -J Gill
I can see why one might think that of the sorcerer by the way it reads, but I think the correct inference is that he never chose to truly believe, and since it's certain enough to me that he never chose to repent and ask for forgiveness he remained unregenerate; because one cannot confess, repent or ask for forgiveness of sin for another.The problem with the Simon Magus example, in my view, is that when confronted by Peter, Simon seems to repent and ask for forgiveness! (Acts 8:24)
I can see why one might think that of the sorcerer by the way it reads, but I think the correct inference is that he never chose to truly believe, and since it's certain enough to me that he never chose to repent and ask for forgiveness he remained unregenerate; because one cannot confess, repent or ask for forgiveness of sin for another.
Would you agree that your statement 'which shows...' is an opinion, rather than fact?Thanks you too. Just wanted to share this:
"Which for a while believe:" their faith is a temporary one, like that of Simon Magus; which shows it is not true faith
The Bible says that Jesus prayed for Peter, that his faith would not fail. I am not aware of any verse where Jesus prays for all believers that their faith would not fail. And we have the second soil, as an exampe. If Jesus prayed for all believers, then why would He have given us that example?for that is an abiding grace, Christ, who is the author, is the finisher of it, and prays for it, that it fail not.
I think you just affirmed my position by the admission that they "either forget it" or "falling into bad company are prevailed upon to doubt of it". These words indicate that believers can and do change their minds.The Persic version renders it, "in the time of hearing they have faith"; and such sort of hearers there are, who, whilst they are hearing, assent to what they hear, but when they are gone, either forget it, or, falling into bad company, are prevailed upon to doubt of it, and disbelieve it.
Yes, this is what Jesus said. But He said nothing to indicate that their belief for a while was a nonsaving faith. Nor do any other verse.The Arabic version renders it, "they believe for a small time"; their faith do not continue long, nor their profession of it, both are soon dropped" -J Gill
Where would you point to such "inference" in the case of Simon the sorcerer that "he never chose to truly believe"? What I read is that he did the exact same thing as the rest of the people:I can see why one might think that of the sorcerer by the way it reads, but I think the correct inference is that he never chose to truly believe
How is it certain that "he never chose to repent/ask for forgiveness"?and since it's certain enough to me that he never chose to repent and ask for forgiveness he remained unregenerate
Simon didn't ask Peter to do any of these things for him. His request was simple enough. He wanted Peter to pray that none of what Peter warned him of would not occur.because one cannot confess, repent or ask for forgiveness of sin for another.
Pardon my eavesdropping, GDL, but I think the meaning of exousia in Jn 1:12 is not that we are not children at the point of saving faith, but that the journey now begun as a child of God is within our right to exercise our wills toward accomplishing the ultimate fulfillment of being a child of God, and/or choosing to remain in the vine or not. In other words, Christ alone can give us life and thus make us heirs of eternal life and children of God, but he also, in doing such, gives us the right to exercise our freedom of choice in what do do with what he has done for us!
Doug
Doug:
This is the type of detail I was speaking of when it comes to allowing the Scripture to define terminology such as "born again." This is also why I find interesting those questions re when someone becomes, for example, born again.
In this case I'm using "Children of God" as the example. We like to speak of how those who simply believe in Jesus Christ are born again & Children of God. But the Scripture defines Children of God quite differently, more strictly, and in much more detail. BTW, this is also some of the types of detail in our Text that lead me out of the FG camp, which IMO overemphasizes the entrance & under-emphasizes or almost explains away the necessity of things like continuous belief, growth, etc., by making things like rewards essentially optional. In reality, I see the Text telling us that we should be quite cautious in how we refer to ourselves. So, here's some detail PER THE SCIPTURE re who are the Children of God ("CoG"):
1. Jesus gave the capability to become CoG to whoever received Him – to those who believe in His name J1:12
2. CoG are those Jews & Gentiles (J11:52) who:
A. Confess Jesus Christ came in flesh 1J4:4
B. Do Righteousness 1J3:10
C. Keep God’s commandments/Love God 1J5:2
D. Love their fellow CoG; 1J3:10
E. Suffer together with Jesus Christ while being led by the Spirit & by the Spirit put to death the deeds of the body Rom8:13—17
F. Are free from & thus no longer enslaved to corruption/depravity Rom8:21
G. Imitate God as His beloved Children Eph5:1
H. Obey Apostolic instruction to: (i) work to accomplish their Salvation in fear & trembling while God works in them to will & do what pleases Him, and; (ii) do all things to become blameless & innocent CoG without complaining & arguing as they hold fast the Word of Life Phil2:12—16
I. Will see Jesus Christ when He is revealed, and will be like Him 1J3:2
When I use this detail to let God explain to me who His Children are, it leaves little to no room for this immediate born again concept with no obedience to the commanded growth, or born again & walk away as warned & commanded not to do. As you said, there is an "ultimate fulfillment" to such terminology. The problem with the non-fulfillment theory is that when a Child of God is defined, the non-fulfilling do not fit the definition and would seem to be left out.
Maybe kinda like when you read Johbn 10:28 and come to a diffrerent conclusion.Amen, my brother. What I marvel at, is that one could possible read scripture and come to a different conclusion.
Doug
Religion always puts the cart before the horse. Not one human being can do anything on your list unless one IS born again. We Have to be saved and sealed by the Spirit and operate under the filling of the Holy Spirit to do ANYTHING that is DIVINE good.Doug:
This is the type of detail I was speaking of when it comes to allowing the Scripture to define terminology such as "born again." This is also why I find interesting those questions re when someone becomes, for example, born again.
In this case I'm using "Children of God" as the example. We like to speak of how those who simply believe in Jesus Christ are born again & Children of God. But the Scripture defines Children of God quite differently, more strictly, and in much more detail. BTW, this is also some of the types of detail in our Text that lead me out of the FG camp, which IMO overemphasizes the entrance & under-emphasizes or almost explains away the necessity of things like continuous belief, growth, etc., by making things like rewards essentially optional. In reality, I see the Text telling us that we should be quite cautious in how we refer to ourselves. So, here's some detail PER THE SCIPTURE re who are the Children of God ("CoG"):
1. Jesus gave the capability to become CoG to whoever received Him – to those who believe in His name J1:12
2. CoG are those Jews & Gentiles (J11:52) who:
A. Confess Jesus Christ came in flesh 1J4:4
B. Do Righteousness 1J3:10
C. Keep God’s commandments/Love God 1J5:2
D. Love their fellow CoG; 1J3:10
E. Suffer together with Jesus Christ while being led by the Spirit & by the Spirit put to death the deeds of the body Rom8:13—17
F. Are free from & thus no longer enslaved to corruption/depravity Rom8:21
G. Imitate God as His beloved Children Eph5:1
H. Obey Apostolic instruction to: (i) work to accomplish their Salvation in fear & trembling while God works in them to will & do what pleases Him, and; (ii) do all things to become blameless & innocent CoG without complaining & arguing as they hold fast the Word of Life Phil2:12—16
I. Will see Jesus Christ when He is revealed, and will be like Him 1J3:2
When I use this detail to let God explain to me who His Children are, it leaves little to no room for this immediate born again concept with no obedience to the commanded growth, or born again & walk away as warned & commanded not to do. As you said, there is an "ultimate fulfillment" to such terminology. The problem with the non-fulfillment theory is that when a Child of God is defined, the non-fulfilling do not fit the definition and would seem to be left out.
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