Temporal Salvation?

GDL said:

Actually, to keep the record accurate:

I don't rely on the present tense verb for my opinions about continuing Faith being necessary for Biblical Salvation.

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As well you shouldn't. But Doug does. Which makes me question is Greek training.

I posted textbook information on the present tense to disprove incorrect statements re: the present tense made by FG2 during this discussion.

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Nothing posted from Wallace's book proved my view wrong. In fact, Wallace HIMSELF admits to guessing, by his words "it seems". That isn't FACT, but opinion.

If anything, I back up into the present tense in many cases based upon other factors like:

1) Commands to abide, which means to remain/stay attached to Christ & our Father.
2) Warnings on things like being thrown into fire & being burned up like unproductive refuse if don't abide.
3) Instruction on endurance
4) Warnings against falling away & the last state being worse than the first state before we believed.
5) The fact that Faith & Obedience are 2 sides of the same coin & purported belief in Christ thus being a farce if one does not obey Christ & our Father
6) Paul's writing to Titus saying that one who professes to know God, but who also denies Him in works is disgusting.
7) The fact that Salvation in the Bible is detailed as a Process that has a beginning & an ongoing process to reach an end and the fact that Paul speaks of those not in this process as enemies of the Cross of Christ.
8) The fact that the Text tells us that the Gospel must be believed & obeyed, and that Salvation is for those who believe and obey Christ.
9) The fact that "Christ" is a title denoting the highest of authority and therefore there is no circumstance under which one who believes Jesus is the Christ can ultimately walk away from obeying Him.
10) et.al.

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None of this supports the notion that the use of the present tense in SOME verses regarding salvation means that one must continually believe in order to stay saved.

And I showed that the use of the aorist tense destroys such a notion.

So why doesn't GDL even address the use of the aorist tense?

Things like these have led me to see the reality of the Scripture telling us that there is a big problem with those who supposedly believe (with belief in Free Grace theology being overly simplified and undefined) once

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This shows that GDL STILL doesn't know or understand the FreeGrace theology. Undefined? Really? Seriously? They have defined it very clearly. Maybe GDL just doesn't grasp it.

So, here it is. Saving faith (faith that results in salvation) is believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that He died personally for my sins and gives eternal life to those who believe in Him for it. John 20:31.

Furthermore, saving faith occurs in a moment of time. And it is at that MOMENT of time that salvation is secured, the believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit.

And, Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. No "if's" attached.

Everything else in the NT is for spiritual growth and blessings in time and reward in eternity.

and no matter how they live, or if they fall away, or walk away from The Faith: (1) were ever in The Faith, or; (2) claim any ongoing sense that they are being saved, or were saved.

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This is the real crux of the issue. Arminians just can't stand the thought that a rebellious child can remain a child and receive God's inheritance, which is living with Him in eternity. That's it in a nutshell. They have NO concept or appreciation of God's GRACE.

Free Graces answer to all of these who walk away is (1) they will just be disciplined even to temporal death, but still be saved

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Not my answer. The Bible's answer. Which I have PROVED over and over.

(2) they will lose rewards.

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Significant rewards. 2 Jn 8. 1 Cor 3:14,15

FG2 has misrepresented what a present tense verb can mean - it most certainly can mean a continuous condition.

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In FACT, I've NEVER argued with that. GDL still isn't grasping the issue here.

The present tense doesn't mean that the results of a present tense action are dependent upon the action continuing. That's the sole issue I have with GDL and Doug.

And they STILL haven't proven otherwise.

The use of the aorist tense in Acts 16:31 and Rom 10:9 in regard to salvation proves the claims of both GDL and Doug to be false.

There's no point in getting into any other Greek grammar with him/her. I leave this discussion because FG2 will resort to anything to purport to have won an argument. It's clear to some of us that this is the case. There are more productive uses of time.

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When Arminians realize that they have no defense for their ideas, and no refutation for mine, they leave the debate.

FreeGrace2 said:

And I showed that the use of the aorist tense destroys such a notion.

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Exactly. The aorist tense would never be used in ANY verse about believing in Christ for salvation if it required continuous belief. When it comes to salvation God was DIRECT and to the point. Religion hates his grace. And the Simplicity that is in Christ.......... He makes the intellectual look foolish.

FreeGrace2 said:

They have NO concept or appreciation of God's GRACE.

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There is something very, very, very WRONG when supposed believers have such disdain for Gods free Grace.

Gr8Grace said:

Exactly. The aorist tense would never be used in ANY verse about believing in Christ for salvation if it required continuous belief. When it comes to salvation God was DIRECT and to the point. Religion hates his grace. And the Simplicity that is in Christ.......... He makes the intellectual look foolish.

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Amen!

There is something very, very, very WRONG when supposed believers have such disdain for Gods free Grace.

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It seems to offend their own standards. When God's grace is mentioned, they never fail to come up with the most offensive kind of behavior they are offended by and ask, "you mean someone can bla bla bla, and STILL be saved?"

That says it all. They themselves just can't imagine that God would continue to love one of His children that much. But He does. And He has guaranteed an inheritance for every child He seals; which is ALL of them.

And they just seem to hate that.

FreeGrace2 said:

As well you shouldn't. But Doug does. Which makes me question is Greek training.

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I don't either...in fact the list of reasons that GDL gave for why he came to reject FG I could have written myself, the only difference is that I have always believed those things say what GDL has come to believe.

Doug

TibiasDad said:

I don't either...in fact the list of reasons that GDL gave for why he came to reject FG I could have written myself, the only difference is that I have always believed those things say what GDL has come to believe.

Doug

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Neither of you have provided any evidence that FG theology has any errors in it. You can claim that all you want. Doesn't matter.

Both of you believe that salvation can be lost. That just makes you line up with Arminianism. And the Calvinists want no part of FG theology, so don't call me a Calvinist.

Until someone can prove to me that FG theology has actual errors, I'm quite happy with it.

However, I've found many errors in yours and Calvinism's theology.

WordSword said:

The most understandable and encouraging attribute concerning salvation is that of its permanency, after all, it is called “eternal salvation” (Heb 5:9). What part of salvation is temporary, seeing that one of the meanings of redemption is that of being saved from “eternal damnation” (Mar 3:29). Is it a sensible truism that one can be eternally saved and then not eternally saved? Thus being temporarily saved from “everlasting punishment” (Mat 25:46) is clearly a concept of an oxymoron?

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Is it possible for our believing to be temporary?

FreeGrace2 said:

Until someone can prove to me that FG theology has actual errors, I'm quite happy with it.

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What happens when a person insults the Spirit of grace?


For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:26-29

• counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

JLB

Gr8Grace said:

Exactly. The aorist tense would never be used in ANY verse about believing in Christ for salvation if it required continuous belief. When it comes to salvation God was DIRECT and to the point. Religion hates his grace. And the Simplicity that is in Christ.......... He makes the intellectual look foolish.


There is something very, very, very WRONG when supposed believers have such disdain for Gods free Grace.

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When we stop believing, we are no longer saved.

When a person is being persecuted because they are a believer, they can give in to the temptation to relieve their sufferIng, ie; stop the persecution, by turning away from the Lord.

In the following scripture the context is referring to Jews who turn to Christ, who are being persecuted because they are believers, from unbelieving Jews who are trying to force them to turn away from Christ, by turning back to Judaism, a religion that denies Jesus Christ as Messiah and Lord.


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

• lest they should believe and be saved.

Believe, present tense is condition for being saved.

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

These who believe for a while, then no longer believe, did so while being persecuted because they were believers, Christians, those who believe Jesus is Lord; the promised Messiah.


They at one point did in fact believe, meeting the requirement Jesus said would cause them to be saved, and then they returned to unbelieving.

• Believe = Saved
• Believe for a while = Saved for a while

JLB777 said:

Is it possible for our believing to be temporary?

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Why don't you just consult God's Word, which has already answered your question.

Luke 8:13

JLB777 said:

What happens when a person insults the Spirit of grace?

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Believers will face God's very painful discipline. That's what.

For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:26-29

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v.26 directly relates to v.18. Since Christ has died for all sins, there "no longer remains a sacrifice for sins". Why? Because Christ already sacrificed Himself for all sins.

JLB777 said:

When we stop believing, we are no longer saved.

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Aren't you getting tired of repeating yourself??

And WHEN are you going to find any verse that actually says in very clear words what you keep repeating?

In fact, Jesus taught that believers presently POSSESS eternal life in John 5:24 and 6:47. And then He taught that those He gives eternal life shall never perish in John 10:28.

So your opinions are in direct opposition to Jesus' teachings.

Can a person lose salvation when they directly oppose the teachings of Jesus? I would think that IF IF IF that were true, you'd be on extremely shaky ground right about now.

When a person is being persecuted because they are a believer, they can give in to the temptation to relieve their sufferIng, ie; stop the persecution, by turning away from the Lord.

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They may relieve their suffering from persecution, but they will STILL face the discipline of God, which is painful. Heb 12:11

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

• lest they should believe and be saved.

Believe, present tense is condition for being saved.

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All believing occurs in the present tense. It's not the tense that saves. It's the belief that results in salvation.

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

These who believe for a while, then no longer believe, did so while being persecuted because they were believers, Christians, those who believe Jesus is Lord; the promised Messiah.

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So what? Jesus said those He gives eternal life (believers) shall never perish.

They at one point did in fact believe, meeting the requirement Jesus said would cause them to be saved, and then they returned to unbelieving.

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So what? They were given eternal life WHEN they believed. So they shall never perish.

But you don't believe the words of Jesus. Will that cause such unbelief to lose salvation?

• Believe = Saved
• Believe for a while = Saved for a while

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Wrong. That's just your imagination and rejection of what Jesus taught.

WHEN a person believes, they RECEIVE eternal life. And the result of possessing eternal life is that they shall never perish.

Gr8Grace said:

Exactly. The aorist tense would never be used in ANY verse about believing in Christ for salvation if it required continuous belief. When it comes to salvation God was DIRECT and to the point. Religion hates his grace. And the Simplicity that is in Christ.......... He makes the intellectual look foolish.
There is something very, very, very WRONG when supposed believers have such disdain for Gods free Grace.

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May I ask why the aorist would never be used of any verse about believing in Christ?
In what manner do we show disdain for God's grace?

Doug

WordSword said:

We need to understand that "believe" is to be a regenerate (reborn), and there is no Scriptural language supporting any type of syntax (words) that displays one becoming unregenerate, only becoming regenerate.

Nice to see you here too Brother!

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But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

These did in fact believe and were saved. They were persecuted as believers, Christians. Then they deserted Christ, to save their life; to be able to live a little longer.




JLB

FreeGrace2 said:

Aren't you getting tired of repeating yourself??

And WHEN are you going to find any verse that actually says in very clear words what you keep repeating?

In fact, Jesus taught that believers presently POSSESS eternal life in John 5:24 and 6:47. And then He taught that those He gives eternal life shall never perish in John 10:28.

So your opinions are in direct opposition to Jesus' teachings.

Can a person lose salvation when they directly oppose the teachings of Jesus? I would think that IF IF IF that were true, you'd be on extremely shaky ground right about now.


They may relieve their suffering from persecution, but they will STILL face the discipline of God, which is painful. Heb 12:11


All believing occurs in the present tense. It's not the tense that saves. It's the belief that results in salvation.


So what? Jesus said those He gives eternal life (believers) shall never perish.


So what? They were given eternal life WHEN they believed. So they shall never perish.

But you don't believe the words of Jesus. Will that cause such unbelief to lose salvation?


Wrong. That's just your imagination and rejection of what Jesus taught.

WHEN a person believes, they RECEIVE eternal life. And the result of possessing eternal life is that they shall never perish.

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But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

These did in fact believe and were saved. They were persecuted as believers, Christians. Then they deserted Christ, to save their life; to be able to live a little longer.


Do you believe these believers who departed Christ to save their lives were still saved?


JLB

JLB777 said:

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

These did in fact believe and were saved.

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Here is the point. WHEN a person believes and IS saved, they also POSSESS (in the present tense) eternal life. Not some far away future promise, but they actually HAVE it.

And, Jesus was clear: those He gives (He is the ONLY ONE who does give) eternal life shall never perish.

So, the view that salvation can be lost is in direct opposition to the words of Jesus.

Those who believe that salvation can be lost DON'T BELIEVE what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life.

That would be called UNBELIEF. And you have repeatedly said that unbelief results in LOSS OF SALVATION.

Have you applied these facts and principles to yourself lately?

WordSword said:

We need to understand that "believe" is to be a regenerate (reborn), and there is no Scriptural language supporting any type of syntax (words) that displays one becoming unregenerate, only becoming regenerate.

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We need to understand that "born again" is metaphor for being connected to the only source of life, Christ, which is also illustrated by the vine and branch metaphor. These are all about dynamic relationship between God and us! If the dynamic is non-existent then you're not alive. That's why Paul typically illustrates by using life and death, because all things born are capable of dying! These are terms of reality, not metaphors! That is why Paul's says "For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." (Rom 8:13)

Doug

JLB777 said:

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

These did in fact believe and were saved. They were persecuted as believers, Christians. Then they deserted Christ, to save their life; to be able to live a little longer.


Do you believe these believers who departed Christ to save their lives were still saved?


JLB

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Yes, this reminds me of Jude's words,

5So I want to remind you, though you already know these things, that Jesus first rescued the nation of Israel from Egypt, but later he destroyed those who did not remain faithful. 6And I remind you of the angels who did not stay within the limits of authority God gave them but left the place where they belonged. God has kept them securely chained in prisons of darkness, waiting for the great day of judgment. 7And don’t forget Sodom and Gomorrah and their neighboring towns, which were filled with immorality and every kind of sexual perversion. Those cities were destroyed by fire and serve as a warning of the eternal fire of God’s judgment.

Doug

WordSword said:

To believe temporarily is the same as to never believe, because faith never fails.

Gill - which for a while believe: their faith is a temporary one, like that of Simon Magus; which shows it is not true faith; for that is an abiding grace, Christ, who is the author, is the finisher of it, and prays for it, that it fail not. The Persic version renders it, "in the time of hearing they have faith"; and such sort of hearers there are, who, whilst they are hearing, assent to what they hear, but when they are gone, either forget it, or, falling into bad company, are prevailed upon to doubt of it, and disbelieve it. The Arabic version renders it, "they believe for a small time"; their faith do not continue long, nor their profession of it, both are soon dropped."

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What I find interesting, is that the word for believe but yet "never believing" is the same word for believing and having a true and enduring faith. It would seem the most straightforward meaning is that they actually believed and then abdicated their belief. Calvin's evanescent grace theory is circular reasoning instead of dealing with the actual meaning of the words. It says that they believed for a while but they fell away. They had they same belief that the ones who end up producing a hundred fold, they just fell away! They sprang to life (were spiritually alive) but withered and died! I believe it is called Cooper's rule, "If the natural reading makes sense, there's no reason to look for another meaning."

Doug