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BarbB said:CM - I read the book last fall as I was searching for where I belonged. I was pretty horrified that one of the "pioneers" seemed to be trashing the movement. OTOH, and I'm going to say this as kindly as I can - Stan is old and may not be the man he was years ago.
Stan Telchin, a Messianic Jew and author of Messianic Judaism Is Not Christianity (Chosen Books), says those within the movement think Messianic Judaism is superior to Christianity, which he says impedes the Bible's call to unity.
The 80-year-old Jews for Jesus missionary adds that Messianic congregations appeal largely to Gentile Christians who enjoy traditional Jewish customs such as wearing yarmulkes and prayer shawls. Telchin says this offends and angers the Jewish community, which holds such practices in high regard and reserves them only for observant Jews. He says the Messianic movement may, in effect, alienate the very people it is trying to win to Christ.
wise, yod.yod said:I would recommend "Copernicus and the Jews" by Daniel Gruber. A jewish believer who is an equal opportunity offender. No one escapes his critical exam.
Yes, Stan Telchin makes some valid critical points...but his overall broad-brush is that the messianic movement is completely cultic and that is character assassination of the worse kind. The result is slandering the name of many good and faithful people.
I would agree had he said "some" feel this way. I might even have allowed the word "many" though it would be true only in certain places. But to say that "those within the movement" feel this way is an exaggeration that makes us all look like pinhead legalists.
The faithful aren't called to have a "Spirit of Unity" anyway....but unity in the Spirit is the goal and that requires love, patience, understanding and forgiveness. Yes, the messianic movement has it's share of weirdness but that is mostly because it's unique character attracts more than our share of "problem people" that need spiritual maturity and growth.
We get the rejects from the church. The people who have been burned or cast out. The people who are looking for religious structure in the Law.
Understanding the Law allows one to better understand the purpose of grace, imo.
I tend to agree with that statement.
But it is an in-house arguement that outsiders wouldn't understand. What would happen if a well-known priest wrote a book called "the fantasy of transubstantiation and the lies of the Catholic Church" and it appeared in christian bookstores without having ever discussed his "disagreements" with the regional Catholic authorities?
He would be removed and severly sanctioned and we all know it.
It goes against Yeshua's method of addressing problems among brothers (Matthew 18:15-17) because he took this to outsiders first. That is the biggest problem. He was not looking to bring unity...he was looking to spread guile.
yod said:I would recommend "Copernicus and the Jews" by Daniel Gruber. A jewish believer who is an equal opportunity offender. No one escapes his critical exam.
Yes, Stan Telchin makes some valid critical points...but his overall broad-brush is that the messianic movement is completely cultic and that is character assassination of the worse kind. The result is slandering the name of many good and faithful people.
Yes, the messianic movement has it's share of weirdness but that is mostly because it's unique character attracts more than our share of "problem people" that need spiritual maturity and growth.
We get the rejects from the church. The people who have been burned or cast out. The people who are looking for religious structure in the Law.
But it is an in-house arguement that outsiders wouldn't understand.
What would happen if a well-known priest wrote a book called "the fantasy of transubstantiation and the lies of the Catholic Church" and it appeared in christian bookstores without having ever discussed his "disagreements" with the regional Catholic authorities?
He would be removed and severly sanctioned and we all know it.
Being one of only two people on this thread who actually read the book, I can say on good authority that in no place is the MJ movement called cultic, and no one person is slandered in the book.
Yes, interesting. I have noticed that and I'd love some personal anecdotes about that. Rejects from the church etc have always been of special interest to me, and it's interesting to see where they end up. I personally think we need to minister to them.
Do you think that ministering to the "weirdness" folks should be a new mandate for the MJ movement or at least some congregations? Should it shift emphasis just a teensy bit and have some special ministries?
But it is an in-house arguement that outsiders wouldn't understand.
Why do you think one can judge, say, for example the RCC from the outside (as below) but not MJ'ism? How do you think it differs and why?
That happens all the time, often without repercussion- think of Fr. Malachi Martin for just one example
yod said:Because almost every christian is reading the bible with a hellenistic perspective which they got from the RCC. They can not (and often will not) understand the hebraic context which is our biggest difference.
Ivy said:."
Yod, why do you think the movement attracts more than its share of hurting people, outcasts, etc? I think that is true, but I don't understand why it's so.
yod said:I doubt that there is one simple answer but generally speaking I think it is because the messianic movement is unique in the Body overall. This causes misconceptions about what it "is" so we attract people with an outcast agenda who think we are in agreement with them.
yod said:but surely you realize that is doesn't take much for some people to hate the jews to the point of murder. That makes it a different level of sensitivity where a few sentences here or there don't really cover the damage done.
Hey bro...we can always use laborers in this field
It ain't "new" necessarily... there are always people coming in from SDA-type groups or mad at the church for not telling them about the Torah.
Many of them reject everything they ever heard in the church and swallow anything they hear from someone with a yarmulke claiming to teach "Hebrew roots".
There are more and more "lone-ranger" congregations out there who are a law unto themselves as gentiles form messianic congregations for reasons of pride/ego/authority apart from the jews they claim to love.
They sow bitterness that has to be healed over time. Everyone wants to be "the jews" until persecution comes.
Because almost every christian is reading the bible with a hellenistic perspective which they got from the RCC. They can not (and often will not) understand the hebraic context which is our biggest difference. It is what makes someone "Messianic" in my opinion.
The Inquisition comes to mind.....
BarbB said:CM and Yod - thanks for the interesting thread.
CM, one of the difficulties I have with the MJ movement is that many do come out of churches in bitterness that they had no education on Jewish Roots. I can't tell you the number of people coming out of my own Church of God merely because they took my rabbi's Jewish Roots class. Indeed, what I've learned has lifted my heart, teased my intellect and made my love for G-d just explode. But others are bitter that the Christian Church seems to do everything wrong according to Torah. Indeed, most of the holidays were specifically set up by the RCC so as NOT to match the Jewish feasts and festivals which Yeshua so clearly fulfilled. The result is that Gentiles try to be more Jewish than the Jewish believers.That's a match not made in heaven.
For myself, I just enjoy what I'm learning, loving Shabbat, reading like mad, etc. btw, I still go to a good Christian church on Saturday evening. He's a great pastor, there's always something to be learned and one can't worship our G-d enough, imho.
The book isn't really directed at any issue regarding anti-semitism- it's really about imbalance in elements of the movement. I'm not sure I follow you here, am I missing something?
Many of them reject everything they ever heard in the church and swallow anything they hear from someone with a yarmulke claiming to teach "Hebrew roots".
That's scary. The church has been going along for 2000 years, and there's so much good stuff there- where would we be without the great devotional writings of the church?
But, I've met one person like that only recently. I really couldn't understand her aversion to the writings of Spirit-filled saved Christians who were Gentiles. I told her she needed to do a course in "Hellenic roots". LOL
There are more and more "lone-ranger" congregations out there who are a law unto themselves as gentiles form messianic congregations for reasons of pride/ego/authority apart from the jews they claim to love.
..and that's something I think Telchin is addressing in that book.
Because almost every christian is reading the bible with a hellenistic perspective which they got from the RCC. They can not (and often will not) understand the hebraic context which is our biggest difference. It is what makes someone "Messianic" in my opinion.
Well, to be fair, Judaism itself was Hellenised a bit after the invasion of Alexander to some degree. If it weren't for the Maccabean Revolt we would have almost been completely absorbed into Hellenistic culture and thought.
But, one thing I have found- is that the Church, as I experience it, is more than open to Hebrew roots teaching. They find it interesting. Maybe it's because I minister in Anglican congregations (and many others, usually derivatives of Anglicanism like Methodist) where people are open minded and they already see Hebraic roots right through the liturgy as well as have a hunger for "more".
I think the Holy Spirit is teaching the church to have "more" right now, and the hearts of the faithful are opening up to Hebrew roots teaching.
yod said:I'm sure that Stan wasn't anti-semetic but being critical of jewish congregations requires a special sensitivity because of anti-semetism within the church.
For example; There are things going on in Israel where messianics are being persecuted by the Orthodox. I could probably shed light on some of that in the American church and bring enough pressure to get some of it stopped...but at what price?
There are people who would take that information and broad-brush this as "The jews are persecuting christians" which would be disasterous to the bridges that have been formed between American evangelicals and the nation of Israel.
Stan's book seems to allow anyone with an agenda against messianic jews some justification.
I'm not worried about it too much because this is either a move of the Holy Spirit or it needs to die. I think the former rather than the latter.
I've gotten along fine without any devotional writings of the church...but there are still many things about the historical christian Body that are edifying to all of us.
But unless one understands the situation, they might get the impression that is what the entire messianic movement is. I've been told that his book suggests those places have become more the norm than the exception.
Yes, that was the very purpose of the Pharisaical movement. Hellenistic jews are mentioned in Acts 6 and in Acts 9 so, yeah, hellenism has nothing to do with race or ethnicity. I'm a hebraic goy (mostly). There is nothing necessarily wrong with having a hellenistic philosophical lifestyle but interpreting hebraic concepts in a hellenistic way causes a problem. This is what 99% of the church does without realizing their error. When that gets challenged to consider another perspective they respond with cries of "Heresy!"
I generally agree.
God is doing a new thing but not everyone is open to hearing it yet. Those who have spirits alive to the Holy Spirit can hear Him though.
In the near future, I think that Israel will be a dividing line in every place where there already exists a division but that is probably another thread.
I think you should try it Contra, I do this too! I get blessed by attending both and I think It keeps me humble and sweetContraMundum said:I hear ya BarbB, and you are one blessed woman in Our Lord!
In a perfect world, I would probably attend a MJ congregation on Sat and still keep my commitments on Sunday in the tradition I am called to (which I love, make no mistake about it- He is among us!). But, the world is not perfect- maybe G-d will change that one day.
Tishri1 said:I think you should try it Contra, I do this too! I get blessed by attending both and I think It keeps me humble and sweet, one day we will all be joined into man , one in Messiah and we need people who understand both sides to help connect the seams
you betchaContraMundum said:Tishri my friend, pray with me for my situation to allow it to happen. I'd appreciate it.
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