Telchin

ContraMundum · Jun 19, 2006

I just finished Stan Telchin's most recent and terribly interesting book on Messianic Judaism and it's development. http://www.telchin.com/books.htm

Considering Stan's position within the movement and his pioneering role in the movement, what do you think of his critique of the movement as it stands now?

Has anyone else read the book? What are your opinions? I won't debate them, just interested to know the reaction from this particular forum.

Sephania · Jun 19, 2006

Based on the reviews, I don't think I would buy this book. I do see a need for Messianic Congregations, and I do understand some of his reasoning, but not this agenda.

Considering Stan's position within the movement and his pioneering role in the movement, what do you think of his critique of the movement as it stands now?

A wiki Editor consideres him a Ex Messianic Jew since writing this book. Seems I remember an article a few years back in the Messianic Times about this book and how he was turning his back on MJ.

Sephania · Jun 19, 2006

Here I found a internet version of it, here is a good quote from there:

[SIZE=-1]

[SIZE=-1]But Michael Wolf, a member of the executive committee of the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America, says Brickner needs to go beyond writing articles in support of Messianic congregations.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]"They (Jews for Jesus) have to say they don't agree with the conclusions of the book," Wolf said. "They've skirted the issue."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Wolf adds that people automatically associate Moishe Rosen with Jews for Jesus. He also notes that the last page of the book mentions that Telchin can be reached through Jews for Jesus. Wolf, representative of the MJAA's view, wants to see Jews for Jesus not only distance itself from the book but clearly say the book does not reflect the position of the organization.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Charles Kluge, president of the MJAA, agrees that Jews for Jesus needs to come out with a firmer statement. He feels the book is divisive and "raises the middle wall of partition" because it claims Messianic Judaism is not from God.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]"Years ago there was a distrust in the Christian community," Kluge said. "But over the years we've built up wonderful relationships with our brothers and sisters who were not born Jewish, who are in the church, and I feel this book raises that middle wall of partition."[/SIZE]

http://www.atoxicfaith.com/MessTimesNews.html[/SIZE]

Wags · Jun 19, 2006

Book Claiming Messianic Judaism Is Not Christianity Stirs Controversy

Critics say Stan Telchin's recent book is unbiblical and may cause unfounded distrust of Messianic congregations

An author's claim that Messianic Judaism is unbiblical and causing division in the body of Christ has sparked controversy in the Messianic community and led some of its leaders to protest his book. Stan Telchin, a Messianic Jew and author of Messianic Judaism Is Not Christianity (Chosen Books), says those within the movement think Messianic Judaism is superior to Christianity, which he says impedes the Bible's call to unity.

The 80-year-old Jews for Jesus missionary adds that Messianic congregations appeal largely to Gentile Christians who enjoy traditional Jewish customs such as wearing yarmulkes and prayer shawls. Telchin says this offends and angers the Jewish community, which holds such practices in high regard and reserves them only for observant Jews. He says the Messianic movement may, in effect, alienate the very people it is trying to win to Christ.

You can read the full article at Charisma Magazine:

Based on the info I read here and other reviews, I would say this book isn't worth my money!

ContraMundum · Jun 19, 2006

Well.....it's easy to find critical reviews, but there are plenty of positive ones too. (I can't believe in one review they claim Telchin is not a Messianic Pastor- he led a messianic congregation for years and was a missionary for Jews for Jesus, so he does have some influence I think).

The reviews you guys posted stump me. It's like they read the title, the back page, and left it at that. The book is far from divisive and is sub-titled "a loving call to unity", which it is, I think. Oh well, I suppose one cannot be a prophet in his home town, eh?

So, no one here has read it?? I thought you guys would have liked it. Oh well.

Sephania · Jun 19, 2006

I'm sorry Contra, it seems to be bashing the Messianic Movement, unless there are those that already feel that way, why would one be interested in reading about it? From what I recall, but don't quote me, from the article I did read about this a year or so ago, his own daughter was not supporting this book, this daughter, whom if I remember correctly became a believer before he did and was the subject of another book.

Do you have any possitive reviews on this from a MJ perspective? I did read the many reviews at Amazon.com, so they were varied.

Wags · Jun 20, 2006

ContraMundum said:
Well.....it's easy to find critical reviews, but there are plenty of positive ones too. (I can't believe in one review they claim Telchin is not a Messianic Pastor- he led a messianic congregation for years and was a missionary for Jews for Jesus, so he does have some influence I think).

The reviews you guys posted stump me. It's like they read the title, the back page, and left it at that. The book is far from divisive and is sub-titled "a loving call to unity", which it is, I think. Oh well, I suppose one cannot be a prophet in his home town, eh?

So, no one here has read it?? I thought you guys would have liked it. Oh well.

Jews for Jesus doesn't sell this book in their own shop - so as an organization they obviously don't support it. And being a missionary for J4J does not a messianic make.

He was a pastor of a non-denominatioal church.... and lets face it his personal track record from what I've read isn't very good - lies, misappropriation of funds, etc... And his influenece in the messianic community has never been at the level he lays claim to.

You may not think it is divisive, but you are, to put it very bluntly, an outsider looking in.

ContraMundum · Jun 20, 2006

Zayit said:
I'm sorry Contra, it seems to be bashing the Messianic Movement, unless there are those that already feel that way, why would one be interested in reading about it? From what I recall, but don't quote me, from the article I did read about this a year or so ago, his own daughter was not supporting this book, this daughter, whom if I remember correctly became a believer before he did and was the subject of another book.

Do you have any possitive reviews on this from a MJ perspective? I did read the many reviews at Amazon.com, so they were varied.

I don't think it is fair to judge the book by its critics, but by its own merit. There are plenty of very positive comments regarding the MJ movement within the book. It just appears that Telchin lost faith in the current trends within the movement, but his observations are not without merit.

One critic of the book put it best though- that the things that plague the MJ movement are inherent in every church. However, the MJ movement does, like every other type of church, have situations unique to its own genre.

What bothers me the most is that there seems to be an abandonment of the beauty of critical thought and self-correction by the opponents of the book. While Telchin's book "Betrayed" seems to be essential to understanding the conversion process of a Jew, and most MJ's accept it, as well as his very excellent work "Abandoned", which is directed to Gentiles primarily (I think), his latest work is shunned because he dares to beg for self-correction from a movement that has its share of imbalance, just like every one else. That's just the way the Church is, no?

Wouldn't it be better to address problems properly and improve things?

Telchin may have said too much (I think he has), but I'm rather stunned that the book would not even be considered as worth reading because it's "critical". Imagine if people had not have read the 95 Theses because they were critical of the Pope? We'd still be buying indulgences!

If Telchin's work is too extreme for you, what critical analysis of the movement do you recommend? (Every church movement that is worthy partakes in self-analysis, right?)

ContraMundum · Jun 20, 2006

Wags said:
Jews for Jesus doesn't sell this book in their own shop - so as an organization they obviously don't support it. And being a missionary for J4J does not a messianic make.

Hmmm....don't want to go there. I'll get in trouble. Not sure how that gels with what I've read elsewhere though.

He was a pastor of a non-denominatioal church.... and lets face it his personal track record from what I've read isn't very good - lies, misappropriation of funds, etc... And his influenece in the messianic community has never been at the level he lays claim to.

Only if you believe his daughter, who is, at best, a little strange and very disobedient to the scriptures, don't you think?

But, the bottom line is this- if the guy is a sinner, does that make him any better or worse at evaluating things than the sinners he writes to? I mean, the old guy Telchin may have lost the plot in the later years of his life, but the book is not that foolish.

You may not think it is divisive, but you are, to put it very bluntly, an outsider looking in.

That's the problem Telchin was talking about, right there. The movement is meant to attract and teach outsiders, no? Isn't that what they set out to do back in the 60's?

Seriously, people bag my communion all the time- I don't mind. I think it's healthy and I'm one of the biggest critics! Outside observations are most welcome!

BTW- no one is privy to secret knowledge about MJ'ism, as you well know and could tell me a thing or two about. This is not an esoteric movement, right? I have very strong connections with MJ's, but I struggle with them too. While my mother's family are still orthodox Jews my dad's family is mostly Messianic (they divorced 40 yrs ago), including one pastor of a very MJ-influenced congregation (thank the Lord they are saved, but I never see them, sadly, they are too far away. I bet I could learn a lot from them). I meet regularly with MJ pastors as well. I ask about everything, all the time. I'm very curious about it and am good at picking up information. So, I think your comment is just a little misinformed, and I'd really like to finally point out that being an "outsider" doesn't always invalidate one's opinion. Let's not forget Jonah was an outsider in Ninevah.

I really wanted to clear the air about that. I'm not some misinformed outsider. I'm a person who has high hopes for the MJ movement, who as yet to be called to the movement. I would be involved myself under different circumstances, but I have made commitments to my own church.

Now that I have that out of the way- can you make some recommendations for decent studies on the movement?

I seek answers, not debate or defense. How about it?

Ivy · Jun 20, 2006

I've just started reading Post-Missionary Messianic Judaism by Mark Kinzer.......the reading level is a bit on the difficult side for me, but it's a fascinating book.

plum · Jun 20, 2006

Hey Contra...

I've read it... over a year ago though, so it's not fresh in my mind. I remember feeling confused by it since it seemed to go against some of the view of Messianic Judaism that I had at the time. I was just a beginner in this walk, so it was not helpful at all to that end I must say. What it made me feel is that I as a gentile did not belong in MJ. But my heart said otherwise.

I think one point made in the book was that many congregations will say they want to reach Israel and the Jewish people by causing them to jealousy (or whatever that phrase is, sorry). But what they really do is stay in their neat little bubble, stop proclaiming the gospel, and basically forgo all missions or evangelism. Well this is one point I have witnessed myself. I attended a congregation lead by a Messianic leader he mentions in his book, and they don't support evangelism of Jews to Messiah. They (in my opinion only) don't think that preaching Messiah is worth the "consequences" of looking foolish, offending Jewish people, or not being accepted by the local Jewish population.
This one point I agree with. I am very, very disappointed in how many Messianics are content to just stay in their comfort zones with other Messianics and not reach out to the lost of all nations (not just Jews!) in order to promote the Kingdom. Instead they often fall into simply promoting the Torah. But that is only part of the picture, methinks. The ministry of Paul is a great example of how we Messianics are called to reach the nations and build up the body. For the sake of the Gospel!

Zayit mentioned that Telchin's daughter was not supporting her own father... here's her own site on it:
http://www.atoxicfaith.com

Contra: our negative reviews or thoughts on the book have nothing to do with you I appreciate you coming to ask about it!

plum · Jun 20, 2006

I've just started reading Post-Missionary Messianic Judaism by Mark Kinzer.......the reading level is a bit on the difficult side for me, but it's a fascinating book.

He's a great man (friend of the family and I attended his congregation last year, but only once). I have some strong feelings about how I was treated as a Gentile who loves Torah... but I truly respect him as a person and I can see he thirsts for G-d Let me know what you think of the book... I don't realy know if I want to read it.

Sephania · Jun 20, 2006

While I agree with what you are saying eirene, I will say that there are many in the Messianic Movement that are specifically Jewish Evangelists, and according to the NT letters, not all are called to such a thing.

A short list off the top of my head:

Jonathan Bernis
David LeVine

These two men alone have gone out to many countries, and proclaimed Messiah, have helped the sick and poor and started new congregations, very much like Paul. Many volunteer to go with them on these missions as well.

And many who have moved to Israel, dispite all the porblems that entails to start MJ congregations and put in hard hard work with those the L-RD sends to them in the land.

I think we don't see the world wide picture because we only focus on US congregations, but that is because of the freedom and soup pot politics that this country is, while other countries the Jews are truly searching, here it is very different.

Sometimes just having a congregation and showing love can be a strong witness.

My husband is the head usher of our shul and he is a gentile. A few weeks back a man came in the middle of the service and my husband greeted him and gave him a visitor packet we hand out. He then sat with him through about a half hour of the service. Then the man got up and left my husband went out with him and talked with him a little. He was not Messianic but a conservative Jew. He told this to my husband and also told him he wanted to see what the MJ congregation was about. After chatting a little he went to leave but before he did he shook my husbands hand and gave him a quick arm hug, and then told him, "no matter what you are still my brother' My husband thanked him, and told him that it meant alot to him, but also wanted him to know that he wasn't Jewish that he knew of, and the man said, it didn't matter, he meant what he said.

I thought that was beautiful, and my husband said he felt that the man would be back. Love sometimes speaks louder than any words, and I believe that the L-RD 'evangelizes' different people in different ways.

ContraMundum · Jun 20, 2006

eirene said:
Hey Contra...

I've read it... over a year ago though, so it's not fresh in my mind. I remember feeling confused by it since it seemed to go against some of the view of Messianic Judaism that I had at the time. I was just a beginner in this walk, so it was not helpful at all to that end I must say. What it made me feel is that I as a gentile did not belong in MJ. But my heart said otherwise.

Wow....great observation and response.

I think one point made in the book was that many congregations will say they want to reach Israel and the Jewish people by causing them to jealousy (or whatever that phrase is, sorry). But what they really do is stay in their neat little bubble, stop proclaiming the gospel, and basically forgo all missions or evangelism. Well this is one point I have witnessed myself. I attended a congregation lead by a Messianic leader he mentions in his book, and they don't support evangelism of Jews to Messiah. They (in my opinion only) don't think that preaching Messiah is worth the "consequences" of looking foolish, offending Jewish people, or not being accepted by the local Jewish population.
This one point I agree with. I am very, very disappointed in how many Messianics are content to just stay in their comfort zones with other Messianics and not reach out to the lost of all nations (not just Jews!) in order to promote the Kingdom. Instead they often fall into simply promoting the Torah. But that is only part of the picture, methinks. The ministry of Paul is a great example of how we Messianics are called to reach the nations and build up the body. For the sake of the Gospel!

Amen!

I think that is an excellent observation that I too have witnessed. On the other hand, I've seen the opposite too! Thank the Lord He is in charge!

One thing that does suprise me is that some of those people live in a kind of fantasy- like not offending the Jews is the point of being a Messianic Jew, and that somehow this will win the orthodox Jews to Christ- that will never happen. Christians, Jewish or not, will never be accepted by the orthodox Jews. To be baptised is to be apostate, according to them, and there are even elements that think MJ'ism is about destroying the Jewish people- another Shoah, this time without violence! Outrageous but true!

Zayit mentioned that Telchin's daughter was not supporting her own father... here's her own site on it:
http://www.atoxicfaith.com

I'm not sure she's all there. It's a pretty bizzare site and seems quite disobedient to the scriptures. I can't say which ones because that would be "teaching", so I'll let you connect the dots.

She may have some very valid points, but so does her dad.

Contra: our negative reviews or thoughts on the book have nothing to do with you I appreciate you coming to ask about it!

Thanks....I appreciate the feedback- I KNEW someone here would have read it.

plum · Jun 20, 2006

ContraMundum said:
Wow....great observation and response.

Amen!

I think that is an excellent observation that I too have witnessed. On the other hand, I've seen the opposite too! Thank the Lord He is in charge!

One thing that does suprise me is that some of those people live in a kind of fantasy- like not offending the Jews is the point of being a Messianic Jew, and that somehow this will win the orthodox Jews to Christ- that will never happen. Christians, Jewish or not, will never be accepted by the orthodox Jews. To be baptised is to be apostate, according to them, and there are even elements that think MJ'ism is about destroying the Jewish people- another Shoah, this time without violence! Outrageous but true!

I'm not sure she's all there. It's a pretty bizzare site and seems quite disobedient to the scriptures. I can't say which ones because that would be "teaching", so I'll let you connect the dots.

She may have some very valid points, but so does her dad.

Thanks....I appreciate the feedback- I KNEW someone here would have read it.

I can only guess or read into so much simply from a website... but as I have been reading Ann Telchin's views... it struck my heart that she is in a lot of pain. I feel heavy for her. this does not mean she is not teling the truth... or even following G-d's way in this. I admire her for standing up for Messianic Judaism is her own story and for G-d's Truth.
However, it seems to me that even the tone on the site expresses a deep hurt in her heart that could act as a magnet for resentment and bitterness. However, I do not know her heart. This is just an observation.

Zayit, you're completely right. There are many who fulfill that "great comission" in the Messianic movement... many! How grateful I am for these people who love Israel not only in word or creed, but in deed.
I am simply dissatisfied with some attitudes and teachings I have seen and been given.

ContraMundum · Jun 20, 2006

eirene said:
I can only guess or read into so much simply from a website... but as I have been reading Ann Telchin's views... it struck my heart that she is in a lot of pain. I feel heavy for her. this does not mean she is not teling the truth... or even following G-d's way in this. I admire her for standing up for Messianic Judaism is her own story and for G-d's Truth.
However, it seems to me that even the tone on the site expresses a deep hurt in her heart that could act as a magnet for resentment and bitterness. However, I do not know her heart. This is just an observation.

That's exactly what I saw too. We should write to her and encourage her.

I am simply dissatisfied with some attitudes and teachings I have seen and been given.

I think everybody gets that from time to some, somewhere.

Wags · Jun 20, 2006

ContraMundum said:
Hmmm....don't want to go there. I'll get in trouble. Not sure how that gels with what I've read elsewhere though.

J4J uses non jews as missionaries and they do not promote the keeping of Torah.

Only if you believe his daughter, who is, at best, a little strange and very disobedient to the scriptures, don't you think?

She has attempted the biblical means of resolution without success. And isn't just her or her family that is making the claims. There is public record of the crimal charges that have been brought against him.

But, the bottom line is this- if the guy is a sinner, does that make him any better or worse at evaluating things than the sinners he writes to? I mean, the old guy Telchin may have lost the plot in the later years of his life, but the book is not that foolish.

Apparently those in leadership roles within MJ think that he is way off base.

That's the problem Telchin was talking about, right there. The movement is meant to attract and teach outsiders, no? Isn't that what they set out to do back in the 60's?

Through the power the Ruach this movement is still attracting a growing number of both jews and gentiles to it.

Seriously, people bag my communion all the time- I don't mind. I think it's healthy and I'm one of the biggest critics! Outside observations are most welcome!

BTW- no one is privy to secret knowledge about MJ'ism, as you well know and could tell me a thing or two about. This is not an esoteric movement, right? I have very strong connections with MJ's, but I struggle with them too. While my mother's family are still orthodox Jews my dad's family is mostly Messianic (they divorced 40 yrs ago), including one pastor of a very MJ-influenced congregation (thank the Lord they are saved, but I never see them, sadly, they are too far away. I bet I could learn a lot from them). I meet regularly with MJ pastors as well. I ask about everything, all the time. I'm very curious about it and am good at picking up information. So, I think your comment is just a little misinformed, and I'd really like to finally point out that being an "outsider" doesn't always invalidate one's opinion. Let's not forget Jonah was an outsider in Ninevah.

I really wanted to clear the air about that. I'm not some misinformed outsider. I'm a person who has high hopes for the MJ movement, who as yet to be called to the movement. I would be involved myself under different circumstances, but I have made commitments to my own church.

Now that I have that out of the way- can you make some recommendations for decent studies on the movement?

Tough to do, since there is no one govening body. No one set of doctrines either. So anyone trying to critique the movement as a whole is going to have a tough time covering everything.

I seek answers, not debate or defense. How about it?

BTW - I'm not attacking you personally by saying you are an "outsider" while you have connections, you personally do not identify yourself as a messianic.

ContraMundum · Jun 20, 2006

Wags said:
BTW - I'm not attacking you personally by saying you are an "outsider" while you have connections, you personally do not identify yourself as a messianic.

Thanks Wags....I didn't think so.

stone · Jun 20, 2006

This place has good books:

http://ffoz.org/

Sephania · Jun 20, 2006

One thing that does suprise me is that some of those people live in a kind of fantasy- like not offending the Jews is the point of being a Messianic Jew, and that somehow this will win the orthodox Jews to Christ- that will never happen. Christians, Jewish or not, will never be accepted by the orthodox Jews. To be baptised is to be apostate, according to them, and there are even elements that think MJ'ism is about destroying the Jewish people- another Shoah, this time without violence! Outrageous but true!

You are so right, that is so true! Yes, we are not called to not step on toes, we are called to show the Love of the one who lives in us, it doesn't matter what you call it ( Christian, MJ) but who you are representing, that is what will speak to the heart of the Jew who truly is searching for their Messiah. And HaSHem is perfect in knowing when that time is. From many a testemony I have read, I know the most powerful tool you can use, is not your mouth to preach, but to pray, and by your actions of love but most of all, Prayer. I can't tell you how many Jews I have heard say that they had a gentile praying for them to come to know Messiah.

It works!

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