Tekhlet

The Thadman · Jun 23, 2004

There are a number of theories on where tekhlet came from. Which one do you ascribe to?

I happen to believe that it was indigo, a dye which many archeologists argue is the oldest of dyes. Egypt was known for its fine indigo dying, and Moses was given the commandement after the Hebrews were loosed from Egypt's grip, taking their wealth with them.

Additionally, it is ritually clean where the dye from snails, muscles, or squid is not, so one would have to handle the corpses of dean unclean animals to extract the dye, making them ritually unclean themselves.

What do you guys think?

Peace!
-Steve-o

Henaynei · Jun 23, 2004

The Thadman said:
Additionally, it is ritually clean where the dye from snails, muscles, or squid is not, so one would have to handle the corpses of unclean animals to extract the dye, making them ritually unclean themselves.

What do you guys think?

Peace!
-Steve-o

Just as they had to handle the corpse of the red heifer, an unclean thing and making themselves unclean, yet the *product* was not only clean but it is the agent used to rid of all kinds of uncleanness, including cleansing and sanctifying the Temple.... hmmm...

Additionally, Jewish historical sources state that it was a mollusk (or snail, can't remember), in the reading I have had the chance to do.....

simchat_torah · Jun 23, 2004

Henaynei is correct, there are various products used in the service to HaShem that were not of clean nature, such as the sacrafice of a donkey, etc. As well, Jewish historians point out that the particular shade of blue was created from a muscle/snail (the murex trunculus snail to be specific).

-yafet

Sephania · Jun 23, 2004

But the true question that I have always had was where in the "wilderness" do you find the snail? And in abundance no less? If this was a miracle I should think it would be mentioned. You would sure need a lot of it to make all the wool dyed for the curtains, let alone 650,000 X 4 tzitzit for the men of Israel!

That's not a mere bag O' shells that is truckloads full!

simchat_torah · Jun 23, 2004

Was the same dye used for the curtains that of the tzitzit also?

simchat_torah · Jun 23, 2004

I believe there is a large misunderstanding of clean and unclean. Often, simply touching something unclean does not make one unclean. This only applied to very specific things.

For example, petting a cat or dog does not render one unclean. However, eating their meat is strictly forbidden.

simchat_torah · Jun 23, 2004

The gematria (numerical value )of the word tzitzit is 600. There are five knots and eight threads that must be observed. By adding all of these values we get the sum of 613... . When the molecules of the blue color called tekhelet, extracted from the murex trunculus snail are measured, the reading peaks at exactly 613 nanometers.

Is this a coincidence that techelet reads 613 on the nanometer?

Some would argue the Rabbis were led of the spirit of Satan, others argue that the Ruach HaKodesh guided them through time as they protected the Torah.

Thadman, I know that the Karaite view desperately wants to paint the Rabbis as wrong on every issue, but maybe.... just maybe they were led by the Ruach on a few issues? nu?

-Yafet

simchat_torah · Jun 23, 2004

The quote above comes from this article: http://www.vendyljones.org.il/true_colors.htm
However, you can find it in dozens and dozens of sources.

simchat_torah · Jun 23, 2004

A few more sources for those who are interested:
http://www.tekhelet.com/tidbit14.htm
(I like that one )

http://www.borhatorah.org/article1.html

http://www.ou.org/torah/tt/5764/tzav64/specialfeatures.htm

enjoy!
-Yafet

simchat_torah · Jun 23, 2004

FYI.... even the talmud states the chilazon (a snail) to be the origin of the dye used for techelet. Thus, even in Y'shua's time this was not quesitoned.

-yafet

simchat_torah · Jun 23, 2004

Zayit,

Purple and blue dyes were often imported from Crete in the Middle East as far back as 1750 bce (and earlier). Of course, Crete would be in abundance of this sea snail So there wouldn't be a shortage there of.

shalom,
yafet

simchat_torah · Jun 23, 2004

Thadman,

I'm not sure what your sources are for stating:

I happen to believe that it was indigo, a dye which many archeologists argue is the oldest of dyes. . Egypt was known for its fine indigo dying, and Moses was given the commandement after the Hebrews were loosed from Egypt's grip, taking their wealth with them.

As I stated, Crete was an exporter of Blue dyes as early as 1750 bce (and possibly earlier) and Chemical analysis of dye stains on an ancient vat (circa 1200 bce) are found to be molecularly equivalent to dye from Murex snails. Other archaeological finds at numerous sites (circa 1200-900 bce) reveals an advanced dye industry using Murex snails established on the Canaanite coast.

simchat_torah · Jun 23, 2004

In other words, Murex snails were used quite extensively in the ancient world as a blue dye extract. Compound this with no mentions of 'egyptian indigo' in historical documents.... and well... you get the picture.

The Thadman · Jun 23, 2004

simchat_torah said:
In other words, Murex snails were used quite extensively in the ancient world as a blue dye extract. Compound this with no mentions of 'egyptian indigo' in historical documents.... and well... you get the picture.

How about:

Experts say that Egyptian mummy clothes from the third millennium B C (not futuristic AD!) had borders of indigo dyed stripes. Blue was a predominant colour in the funeral wardrobe of Tutenkhamen. Blue is the only colour found in the earliest dyed linen fragment of ancient Israel and Palestine. The linen wraps of urns containing the Dead Sea scrolls carried symbolic geometric patterns in blue. Babylonian texts talk of garments dyed in blue and there is even one which gives the method for dyeing in indigo. The Bible speaks of "blue clothes and embroidered work" traded by the merchants of Sheba. Blue silk fragments of the third millennium B C have been found in China. (http://www.chennaionline.com/artscene/craftpalace/history/indigo.asp)

All indigo.

Indigo is a blue dyestuff that was known in ancient Egypt and India; a number of mummies have been discovered that were wrapped in an indigo-dyed cloth. (http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h604.html)

Click to expand...

Indigo is the modern English name for the pigment, however, there are several names by which the ancient Greeks and Egyptians also referred to indigo; n-tinkon in Egypt and indikon in Greece. (http://www.sewanee.edu/chem/Chem&Art/Detail_Pages/Pigments/Indigo)

Click to expand...

Textiles coloured with Indigo dating back to 2,500 B.C. habe been found in Thebes/Egypt. Herodotus knew of it. (http://www.zum.de/whkmla/economy/plants/indigo.html)

Click to expand...

The ancients of Egypt, Greece and Rome knew indigo. Mummies of Egypt's XVIII dynasty (about 1600 BC) were wrapped in indigo-dyed cloth. (http://banglapedia.search.com.bd/HT/I_0053.htm)

Click to expand...

Indigo was known and was in use in the times of Moses.

Peace!
-Steve-o

The Thadman · Jun 23, 2004

simchat_torah said:
Was the same dye used for the curtains that of the tzitzit also?

Yeppers.

Indigo -thrives- in arid places and is created by process of fermentation (another process perfectly suited by the climate of the area).

Murex snails do not

Peace!
-Steve-o

The Thadman · Jun 23, 2004

simchat_torah said:
Is this a coincidence that techelet reads 613 on the nanometer?

Some would argue the Rabbis were led of the spirit of Satan, others argue that the Ruach HaKodesh guided them through time as they protected the Torah.

Thadman, I know that the Karaite view desperately wants to paint the Rabbis as wrong on every issue, but maybe.... just maybe they were led by the Ruach on a few issues? nu?

-Yafet

There are more than 613 commandments in the Torah, not including "duplicate" commandments. I'm currently in the middle of a project that involves counting them.

613 is an arbitrary, incorrect number. Some mitzwot on the 613 list aren't even found in the Tanakh!

I do not think that the rabbim are wrong on -every- issue, but that they are wrong on some very pertinent issues which are all too pervasive in modern day Judaism.

Peace, akhi!
-Steve-o

The Thadman · Jun 23, 2004

Henaynei said:
Just as they had to handle the corpse of the red heifer, an unclean thing and making themselves unclean, yet the *product* was not only clean but it is the agent used to rid of all kinds of uncleanness, including cleansing and sanctifying the Temple.... hmmm...

Clean animals that die of themselves, not animals that are slaughtered

Leviticus 11
39 If any animal, of which you may eat, dies; he who touches its carcass shall be unclean until the evening. 40 He who eats of its carcass shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the evening. He also who carries its carcass shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the evening.

Not animals that are slaughtered or sacrificed: those that die. Otherwise this means that -every- time you eat meat you're ritually unclean, which was never the case.

Additionally, Jewish historical sources state that it was a mollusk (or snail, can't remember), in the reading I have had the chance to do.....

Snails, especially Murex, couldn't survive in the wilderness. Indigo could.

Peace!
-Steve-o

Henaynei · Jun 23, 2004

The Thadman said:
Clean animals that die of themselves, not animals that are slaughtered
Not animals that are slaughtered or sacrificed: those that die. Otherwise this means that -every- time you eat meat you're ritually unclean, which was never the case.
Peace!
-Steve-o

I'm Sorry, Steve, but according to the Torah that just is not so:
B'Midbar

19:2 "This is the regulation from the Torah which ADONAI has commanded. Tell the people of Isra'el to bring you a young red female cow without fault or defect and which has never borne a yoke.

19:3 You are to give it to El'azar the cohen; it is to be brought outside the camp and slaughtered in front of him.

19:4 El'azar the cohen is to take some of its blood with his finger and sprinkle this blood toward the front of the tent of meeting seven times.

19:5 The heifer is to be burned to ashes before his eyes -its skin, meat, blood and dung is to be burned to ashes.

19:6 The cohen is to take cedar-wood, hyssop and scarlet yarn and throw them onto the heifer as it is burning up.

19:7 Then the cohen is to wash his clothes and himself in water, after which he may re-enter the camp; but the cohen will remain unclean until evening.

19:8 The person who burned up the heifer is to wash his clothes and himself in water, but he will remain unclean until evening.

19:9 A man who is clean is to collect the ashes of the heifer and store them outside the camp in a clean place. They are to be kept for the community of the people of Isra'el to prepare water for purification from sin.

19:10 The one who collected the ashes of the heifer is to wash his clothes and be unclean until evening. For the people of Isra'el and for the foreigner staying with them this will be a permanent regulation.

So you can clearly see that *3*persons were made UNclean by not just the slaughter but the sacrifice of a CLEAN animal that they were very specifically instructed to sacrifice by HaShem. They were ALL unclean

b'Shalom
Henaynei

simchat_torah · Jun 23, 2004

Quote:

Experts say that Egyptian mummy clothes from the third millennium B C (not futuristic AD!) had borders of indigo dyed stripes. Blue was a predominant colour in the funeral wardrobe of Tutenkhamen. Blue is the only colour found in the earliest dyed linen fragment of ancient Israel and Palestine. The linen wraps of urns containing the Dead Sea scrolls carried symbolic geometric patterns in blue. Babylonian texts talk of garments dyed in blue and there is even one which gives the method for dyeing in indigo. The Bible speaks of "blue clothes and embroidered work" traded by the merchants of Sheba. Blue silk fragments of the third millennium B C have been found in China. (http://www.chennaionline.com/artsce...tory/indigo.asp)

All indigo.

Wait a minute... in your own quote, it says:Blue was a predominant colour in the funeral wardrobe of Tutenkhamen. Blue is the only colour found in the earliest dyed linen fragment of ancient Israel and Palestine.
...
The linen wraps of urns containing the Dead Sea scrolls carried symbolic geometric patterns in blue. Babylonian texts talk of garments dyed in blue and there is even one which gives the method for dyeing in indigo.

Seems to me your very own quote contradicts what you have to say. "there is even one... for dyehing in indigo" would lead one to think the predominant was blue, let alone the rest of your quote ^ up there states blue was used. Egypt was a large importer of Crete blue dyes, as well, collected their own blue dyes.

even this:

Quote:

Indigo is a blue dyestuff that was known in ancient Egypt</B> and India; a number of mummies have been discovered that were wrapped in an indigo-dyed cloth. (http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h604.html)

... makes me wonder if you're not reading your own quotes???

There are more than 613 commandments in the Torah, not including "duplicate" commandments. I'm currently in the middle of a project that involves counting them.

Click to expand...

Every Jewish source you find will tell you there are 613 mitzvot. The ones that are exact duplicates are not counted, but are included in a single mitvah of the 613.

This is not Judaism what you speak of. sorry.

Clean animals that die of themselves, not animals that are slaughtered

Quote:

Leviticus 11
39 If any animal, of which you may eat, dies; he who touches its carcass shall be unclean until the evening. 40 He who eats of its carcass shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the evening. He also who carries its carcass shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the evening.

Not animals that are slaughtered or sacrificed: those that die. Otherwise this means that -every- time you eat meat you're ritually unclean, which was never the case.

Click to expand...

Leviticus 11 is speaking of animals which were considered food, and that which had died (of deseases, etc). Not of animals which were killed. Which by your standards, cow, chicken, and any fish that was killed, whether for eating or dying the tzitzit, would be unclean.

Seems to be a double standard Steve-o.

-yafet

The Thadman · Jun 23, 2004

simchat_torah said:
Wait a minute... in your own quote, it says:Blue was a predominant colour in the funeral wardrobe of Tutenkhamen. Blue is the only colour found in the earliest dyed linen fragment of ancient Israel and Palestine.
...
The linen wraps of urns containing the Dead Sea scrolls carried symbolic geometric patterns in blue. Babylonian texts talk of garments dyed in blue and there is even one which gives the method for dyeing in indigo.

Seems to me your very own quote contradicts what you have to say. "there is even one... for dyehing in indigo" would lead one to think the predominant was blue, let alone the rest of your quote ^ up there states blue was used. Egypt was a large importer of Crete blue dyes, as well, collected their own blue dyes.

even this:

... makes me wonder if you're not reading your own quotes???[/font]

Can you cite me some sources of Egypt in Biblical times importing Crete blue dyes?

Those articles were about the uses of INDIGO in the ancient world.

Every Jewish source you find will tell you there are 613 mitzvot. The ones that are exact duplicates are not counted, but are included in a single mitvah of the 613.

This is not Judaism what you speak of. sorry.

Have you counted them yourself? It'll surprise you.

There are over 700 in Genesis and Exodus alone.

Leviticus 11 is speaking of animals which were considered food, and that which had died (of deseases, etc). Not of animals which were killed. Which by your standards, cow, chicken, and any fish that was killed, whether for eating or dying the tzitzit, would be unclean.

Seems to be a double standard Steve-o.

-yafet

That's what I said. This is NOT talking about slaughtered or sacrificed ritually clean animals, this is talking about ritually clean animals that die of themselves. I'm curious how somehow my words were interpreted as the opposite of what I tried to say...

Peace!
-Steve-o

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Tekhlet

What dye was techlet?

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Snails

Squid

Indigo

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