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So despite knowing this you conflated the two on purpose in your post?Having self-respect and being a selfish, self-centered person are two different things.
Is that Crace?
*squints* It is! Don't give me spoilers though, only 1/2 way through the 2nd season.
No one has confessed that they do not want God to exist for purely selfish reasons, but it can be inferred from the reasons they give.
If at any point, someone says to me something akin to:
"I will not get down on bended knee and worship God..."
"I will not honor God..."
"I would rather gladly go to hell than worship God..."
Anything that touches on honoring, worshiping, reverencing, exalting in the above manner combined with the repeated usage of the word "I" "I" "I"....
"I" will or will not do such and such...
"I" despise or "I" would question God, or "I" am offended that God would such and such....
I simply examine where this line of reasoning originates from...
It is pretty clear that there is a whole lot of self-exaltation, self-centered, self-glorification that is going on here. There is a lot of arrogance and prideful blustering going on here.
The reluctance to get on one's knees and humble one's self before God is the epitome of pride and pride is something that a very selfish, self-centered person exudes. It is something that cannot be hidden or suppressed when challenged. When challenged it comes bursting forth from the heart of man through his lips. For out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.
If memory serves they didn´t say that in regards to "the greatest conceivable being" that you asked us to base the discussion on but in regards to your personal god concept.
Since when is perpetual reverence and adulation in the form of permanent praise a noteworthy virtue or even a virtue at all? A being that commands worship probably doesn't deserve it. Just like politicians who crave power probably shouldn't be given it.
At any rate, I say that I wouldn't worship God as you describe on the basis that his attributes and plans are morally indefensible. I see almost nothing worthy in him that commands worship.
God is to you and wants to be to all, the be and all and end all of existence. He insists on being the purpose and the objective for everyone and historically is the originator. You could not get more self-glorified, frankly.
What is humility to you, exactly?
Well, quite! A god that throws a hissy fit and sends people off to eternal hellfire because he was disagreed with scarcely matches the conception of "greatest"*.
*(Not that arguments like Anselm's Ontological and Aquinas' "no effect 'greater' than its cause" - that rely on this notion of "greatness" - are compelling, of course. It's entirely subjective, and at best is equivocation).
So despite knowing this you conflated the two on purpose in your post?
Yes, it is Crais.Although from the 3rd season, in which he is far more likeable.
Ah, I knew your "thanks for your honesty" schtick was a cover for your forked-tongue.
And nothing selfish about believing in a god who holds your hand through this life and gives you eternal life at the end of it, not at all.
Wrong. The matter for me is one of integrity. This may not be a word you're familiar with, because you usually act with a complete lack of it.
I would rather go to hell than worship God because as you have described him, GOD IS NOT GREAT. And such things don't merit worship.
If you equate acting according to one's integrity with selfishness, well, that might explain a lot of your behaviour....
I will refer all of you to post #146.
In that post, I have explained why God is worthy of honor, worship and glory, and why you so desperately need Him, just as I and everyone else needs Him.
If you all cannot see Christ on the Cross, lifted up for the sins and transgressions of the human race because He loved us so much, then nothing, and I do mean nothing that I say, nothing that I present to you, nothing that I demonstrate to you will make you see the light of the glorious gospel of Christ.
If any of you have an issue, it is not with me, but with Christ, for it is of Him that I speak, and it is Him that I point you to and magnify in the presence of all that are here.
If I magnify myself, my testimony is nothing. No greater love has a man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.
Yes, if he is as described.If God exists, that would mean that He made us and all that there is.
Only in the sense that he enabled people to choose what is good and right.It would mean that He is the source of all that is Good and Right.
This is unargued for. Even if God is the "Highest Good" it would not follow that him holding that title or attributes mean that it is the "Highest Good" to worship him. The very concept of a "Highest Good" in this context invites morality to become arbitrary in application at any rate.It would mean that He, by very definition is the Highest Good and therefore when He created us with the capacity of choosing to love Good and do righteousness, that if we fail to do so, it is because we chose not to do good and love righteousness.
What pedestal am I on, exactly?Take yourself down off of the pedestal you are one and understand this one thing...
No, God caused humanity to be. My parents cause me to be. Humanity owes its origins to God but I as a individual, do not (only indirectly).If God exists, you owe Him your very life, for your life is a gift from Him. If God exists, you did not cause yourself to be born but He did.
I don't have a problem with being held accountable. I have a problem with God holding people accountable for merely thinking a certain way or for being born a specific way. I have a problem with God creating us or allowing us to be born imperfect and then condemning us to eternal damnation for it with the only opt-out being holding absolute faith in a questionable doctrine that has the byproduct of condemning not just atheists but all other theists.If God exists, then that means that YES, there is One greater than you who will hold you accountable.
Don't presume to speak for me. You talk of my supposed selfishness and yet talk about my opposition as if it is to do with how God would treat me. It is not. Even if God promised just me a place in heaven with no conditions God would still be unjust on the basis of his complete condemnation of others and I would still be morally inclined to reject his offer.I know this may be a bitter pill to swallow, and an arrow that flies into the heart of your sense of autonomy, but if God exists, then you owe Him all.
You do understand the basis of a loaded question, right? My "perception" of God is a perception of how you describe God. It is a mirror of your description. Unfortunately you are loaded with bias in favour of the God you describe and have a distorted understanding of morality and thus cannot see the glaring out in the open moral problems with a God that condemns most of the human race to eternal torment.I would not honor God if I perceived Him the way you did either. Your perception of God is severely, tragically warped and twisted my friend. Why is that?
You describe God as if he is Stannis Baratheon. Although Stannis is the Mannis, he's hardly worthy of serious worship.This is where the issue lies. You want to reserve the right to do as you please, come and go as you please, act as you please, think as you please, live as you please, but when it comes to God, you somehow think Him wrong for reserving for Himself that which is necessarily due Him, that is, honor and glory.
I do not command others to worship me. I do not threaten them with punishment for not doing so. I do not ask others to praise me, to love me.You do not mind glorifying yourself, and letting others lift you up, but when it comes to God, you think Him evil for wanting the same?
Your accusation is simply a strawman.How do you rationalize that my friend?
Yet all of this is undermined by what God has in plan for those who don't recognise him. A being that would do that is monstrous, not righteous.True humility is seeing oneself rightly. True humility is realizing that you are nothing without the One who made you, that you can do nothing, say nothing, think nothing, feel nothing, unless the One who gave you breath enables you and gives you the very strength to do so.
I do not wish to be eternally bound in advance of my life to a human sacrifice that I would have been duty-bound morally to prevent. We look upon those that would die for their convictions or show immense grace in the face of great suffering inflicted upon them with immense praise but when they can be prevented: they should.True humility is seen in Christ, who allowed Himself to be nailed to a cross for a crime He did not commit, and while being hung high, prayed for the ones executing Him, while bleeding to death He gave assurance and hope to that hopeless criminal who was crucified beside Him. Assurance that he would be with Him that day in paradise.
And true depravity is executed in that he would condemn all those who do not reciprocate or who reciprocate poorly to eternal damnation.True humility and the greatest mystery of the universe is that God would humble Himself in the way He did just to show us how much He loved us.
I insist on making it about others. You talk about my selfishness then try to narrow the scope of the conversation to me. What about Muslims who live a life of selflessness and obedience towards God only to discover that God has permanent torment ready for them just because they concluded incorrectly about God?This is not about anyone else. This is about YOU.
Where will my freedom be in the afterlife?God can only do what is best, what is greatest. The greatest way He could demonstrate His love for YOU, is by allowing you to have your freedom and at the same time dying to show you how much He wants you to freely love Him.
If God exists, that would mean that He made us and all that there is. It would mean that He is the source of all that is Good and Right. It would mean that He, by very definition is the Highest Good and therefore when He created us with the capacity of choosing to love Good and do righteousness, that if we fail to do so, it is because we chose not to do good and love righteousness.
Take yourself down off of the pedestal you are one and understand this one thing...
If God exists, you owe Him your very life, for your life is a gift from Him. If God exists, you did not cause yourself to be born but He did.
If God exists, then that means that YES, there is One greater than you who will hold you accountable. I know this may be a bitter pill to swallow, and an arrow that flies into the heart of your sense of autonomy, but if God exists, then you owe Him all.
I would not honor God if I perceived Him the way you did either. Your perception of God is severely, tragically warped and twisted my friend. Why is that?
This is where the issue lies. You want to reserve the right to do as you please, come and go as you please, act as you please, think as you please, live as you please, but when it comes to God, you somehow think Him wrong for reserving for Himself that which is necessarily due Him, that is, honor and glory.
You do not mind glorifying yourself, and letting others lift you up, but when it comes to God, you think Him evil for wanting the same?
How do you rationalize that my friend?
True humility is seeing oneself rightly. True humility is realizing that you are nothing without the One who made you, that you can do nothing, say nothing, think nothing, feel nothing, unless the One who gave you breath enables you and gives you the very strength to do so.
True humility is seen displayed in the lives of women and men like Mother Teresa and William Carey, Hudson Taylor, Corrie Ten Boom....
Men and women who denied their own rights and placed others always before themselves. Who placed the needs of others before their own needs. Who always thought of others before they thought of themselves. The people that spend their time giving, not expecting anything in return, going two miles when compelled to go one, giving the shirt off their back to make another warm, the roof over their head to another who has none.
I pray for you my friend, that you do not allow yourself to be blinded any further, but to understand how much God loves you. YOU.
This is not about anyone else. This is about YOU.
God can only do what is best, what is greatest. The greatest way He could demonstrate His love for YOU, is by allowing you to have your freedom and at the same time dying to show you how much He wants you to freely love Him.
This is Christianity. This is what I live and die for.
I will refer all of you to post #146.
In that post, I have explained why God is worthy of honor, worship and glory, and why you so desperately need Him, just as I and everyone else needs Him.
If you all cannot see Christ on the Cross, lifted up for the sins and transgressions of the human race because He loved us so much, then nothing, and I do mean nothing that I say, nothing that I present to you, nothing that I demonstrate to you will make you see the light of the glorious gospel of Christ.
If any of you have an issue, it is not with me, but with Christ, for it is of Him that I speak, and it is Him that I point you to and magnify in the presence of all that are here.
If I magnify myself, my testimony is nothing. No greater love has a man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.
Where will my freedom be in the afterlife?
I don't have a problem with being held accountable. I have a problem with God holding people accountable for merely thinking a certain way or for being born a specific way. I have a problem with God creating us or allowing us to be born imperfect and then condemning us to eternal damnation for it with the only opt-out being holding absolute faith in a questionable doctrine that has the byproduct of condemning not just atheists but all other theists.
Christianity is about smearing people?
Again, if Christianity is what you embody, then I do not want it.
Born imperfect by virtue of a hereditary sin committed ages before one is born by human beings created without any concept of right and wrong and then cursed by their creator for disobeying a command that assumed they possessed some concept of right and wrong. Genesis depicts an incompetent creator.
Belief is not a choice.Your freedom is found in your capacity to make a choice.
I choose life, yet not as God would approve of. That he would condemn me to death is not a choice, it is a consequence he imposes upon those who do not follow.Choose life, or choose death.
No, it does not.Choosing life means you recognize you have fallen short of the glory of God and deserve life without God. It means you look at Christ on the cross and accept His atonement for your sins and receive Him as Lord and Savior.
God's "righteous standard of Holiness" is plainly absurd and by design established to condemn people. The punishment is also not befitting of any crime committed.Choosing death means you reject the offer of salvation and when you die you will be judged for the way you lived your life. Since you cannot meet God's righteous standard of Holiness, you will be sent to the place where you want to be, apart from God.
You're not answering the objections people have.As if Genesis was the only book in the bible.
God has made a way for you to be whole and made well.
Christ is The Way, The Truth, and The Life.
Stop evading responsibility for YOUR OWN WORDS, Eliarnai.
You have said that me and others are being selfish, want to do our own thing, and implied that we cannot place others before ourselves without acknowledging Christ.
Those are YOUR WORDS, Eliarnai. And again, if being a Christian means thinking you can just forego responsibility for the crap you speak and pass the buck onto God (indeed, buck-passing seems de rigeur for the deity you worship), then I want NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.
You have pulled this stunt repeatedly the ENTIRE time you have been a poster here, which is almost a year now, and you are still as insulting to atheists as you were when you arrived. It is a shame that in all that time you haven't actually learned. Rather you self-aggrandise with your last bible quote, while accusing us of putting ourselves on pedestals.
And if Christ really is speaking through you, then he is as clueless as you are.
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