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Chesterton

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What's the purpose of taxonomy? What's the definition of a "species"? Should anyone care?

If I wanted to classify the stuff in my house, I could classify the pencil and the broom together because they're both made mostly of wood. Or I could classify the pencil and the pen together because they're both writing implements. Or I could classify the pencil and the oranges together because they're both orange-colored. Etc.

So educate me. What's the point of taxonomy?
 

matthewgar

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What's the purpose of taxonomy? What's the definition of a "species"? Should anyone care?

If I wanted to classify the stuff in my house, I could classify the pencil and the broom together because they're both made mostly of wood. Or I could classify the pencil and the pen together because they're both writing implements. Or I could classify the pencil and the oranges together because they're both orange-colored. Etc.

So educate me. What's the point of taxonomy?

Actually taxonomy can be used to group together many dfferent things, but I assume your refering to animal taxonomy, originally it was a way of comparing species and anmals into different groups by appearance, it was the first place that humans were lumped in with gorilla's and other primates and such, pretty much where we get our current general taxanomic groups from.
 
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98cwitr

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What's the purpose of taxonomy? What's the definition of a "species"? Should anyone care?

If I wanted to classify the stuff in my house, I could classify the pencil and the broom together because they're both made mostly of wood. Or I could classify the pencil and the pen together because they're both writing implements. Or I could classify the pencil and the oranges together because they're both orange-colored. Etc.

So educate me. What's the point of taxonomy?

The point of species identification is to categorize those organisms that are able to successfully reproduce with each other.
 
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Chesterton

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The point of species identification is to categorize those organisms that are able to successfully reproduce with each other.

Why is that significant? And does that mean that a Chihuahua and a Great Dane are different species? :)
 
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gluadys

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What's the purpose of taxonomy? What's the definition of a "species"? Should anyone care?

If I wanted to classify the stuff in my house, I could classify the pencil and the broom together because they're both made mostly of wood. Or I could classify the pencil and the pen together because they're both writing implements. Or I could classify the pencil and the oranges together because they're both orange-colored. Etc.

So educate me. What's the point of taxonomy?


Originally taxonomy was exactly like that. We have, for example, ancient 'taxonomies' in scripture such as terrestrial life being classified into cattle, wild beasts and creeping things and plants into herbs, trees and fruit trees. One can see the obvious influence of agriculture in setting these categories.

Until Linnaeus wrote his Systema Naturae, each botanist and zoologist set up his/her personal system of taxonomy. This, of course, meant that it was difficult to decide whether a species described by one person was the same or different from that described by another.

What Linnaeus attempted was a universal system of taxonomy everyone could use with standard names for every species and every species included in the catalogue.

It is important to note that Linnaeus was simply trying to catalogue all species, not create a phylogeny. But his work did generate discussion about which characters count in establishing categories. To use your example: what is more pertinent--the colour or the material? Is it more important that a bat has wings like a bird or that it has fur and mammary glands like a cow? Ditto for whales. Should they be catalogued under fish or under mammals?

Darwin himself made a significant contribution to the science of taxonomy via his study of barnacles. His careful work, especially on their larval development, established their place among the Crustaceans rather than the Molluscs.

Darwin Online: Darwin's Study of the Cirripedia


The significant feature of Linnaean taxonomy was that the classification of plants and animals yielded, in broad outlines, a nested hierarchy. Virtually all known species could be placed in a kingdom, phylum, class and order, with each smaller group belonging to one and only one of the larger groups.

Consider your example again: if we were to look up "pencils" we would find it in two different categories: wood things and orange things. And the other things we found in each category would be very different.

The aim of taxonomy is to provide a unique category for every species based on its natural characteristics. IOW species are not to be assigned to a category arbitrarily or on the basis of superficial traits. Nor should there be any need for cross-referencing which would put a single species into two or more categories depending on which character is used as a marker.

Until the 20th century, the characteristics used were largely morphological. Today, molecular similarity is supplementing/replacing morphology as the basis of taxonomy.

Why does taxonomy play an important role in discussions of evolution?

1. It explains the existence of a nested hierarchy. The nested hierarchy of biological taxonomy was discovered prior to Darwin's time by the research that went into finding the most efficient way to catalogue species. It was noted as part of the orderliness of creation. But no cause other than the creator's will could be assigned to it. Darwin's theory provided a natural explanation. Each category is unique because all members of that category are descendants of the first one of that kind. IOW just as all breeds of dogs are dogs because they are all descendants of the original dog, in nature all the finches of the Galapagos are finches because they are all descendants of the first finches to arrive there. And then one can go on through the higher categories. All species in the same genus belong there because there was once an original species from which they are all descended. And all genera in the same family belong there because there was once an original species from which they all descended. etc. etc. The concept of evolution transformed the nested hierarchy from a mystery into a gigantic but understandable family tree of phylogenetic relationships.

2. Working on the assumption that the nested hierarchy of taxonomy is neither an accident nor a whim of the Creator's will but the outcome of natural process enables scientists to predict possible relationships among species that can be of value in many ways. We have seen, for example, that successful predictions of transitional fossils have been validated by subsequent paleontological discoveries. It can also be used in medical applications both in diagnosis and in testing remedies.

3. Probably the most important test of the theory of evolution was the discovery of the structure of DNA. It was widely understood when we could read genes for the first time, that if evolution is true, then the nested hierarchy based on morphological data should be mirrored by a nested hierarchy based on genetic data. By and large it has been, which is why biologists now speak of the "twin-nested hierarchy".

Of course, there are still anomalies in both systems as well as between them that haven't been resolved yet, and we also have the newly-discovered phenomenon of horizontal gene transfer that cuts across the vertical transfer of genetic material from parent to offspring. But those are questions for present and future research to solve.
 
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98cwitr

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Why is that significant? And does that mean that a Chihuahua and a Great Dane are different species? :)

no because they can, in fact, from a biological perspective, sexually reproduce. It's important because it helps use categorize plants and animals, so when we reference them, we can refer to them accurately.

Example:

Don't eat any plant of the species of Dieffenbachia amoena because it can kill you (and actually in this example any genus of the dieffenbachia is poisonous).

It's good to know in survival situations :)
 
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Papias

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Great post Gluadys-

In addition to what Gluadys said, it's worth mentioning that the taxonomy is one way to detect design.

Specifically, when things are designed, they form overlapping categories. For instance, you mentioned the pencil-pen-broom example. That is a good example - there is no single natural taxonomy. Similarly, consider cars. Cars can be classified in number of ways - are they all wheel drive, or RWD? Do they have a radio, CD player, mp3 hookup, etc? What color are they? What make are they? Do they have leather seats? manual or auto trans? Try drawing those out as a venn diagram, and you'll see that they all overlap, with many crossings of lines. Now, do the same for life (make a venn diagram). Add other questions/groups too.

Does it have a nucleus? Does it have a backbone? Does it have a jaw? Does it have hair? Does it have legs? does it have leaves? Does it make pine cones? Does it have feathers? Does it have nipples (platypi don't), does it have hooves? Does it have a broken vitamin C gene? Does the species make cars with manual transmission?, etc. Add other questions/groups too.

Now compare the two. They are very different. In the car one, there are many crossing lines, while in the life one, there are very few if any. Those few usually disappear with a little discussion/research/rewording. For instance, one could be "does it have a post-anal tail?", in which case the apes appear to be out of place - until it is reworded as "does it have a post-anal tail at some point in it's life?" (we do, it is grown then reabsorbed before birth). When a venn diagram, the nested hierarchy is obviously radically different from design. Nested hierarchies result from evolution, while design doesn't make nested hierarchies.

Papias
 
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Skaloop

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Nested hierarchies result from evolution, while design doesn't make nested hierarchies.

Well, a designer could make nested hierarchies if it really wanted to. But it would just be one of myriad possible patterns. And if talking about Christian ID, that's what makes it so funny, that of all the infinite ways in which an omniscient and omnipotent being could form life, He chose pretty much the one pattern that is absolutely expected and required by evolution.
 
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Papias

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Well, a designer could make nested hierarchies if it really wanted to. But it would just be one of myriad possible patterns. And if talking about Christian ID, that's what makes it so funny, that of all the infinite ways in which an omniscient and omnipotent being could form life, He chose pretty much the one pattern that is absolutely expected and required by evolution.


Yes, and it would show an incredible lack of creativity and again, poor design. Why not make a whale that can breathe water, or a fish with stinging tentacles, or a pegasus or griffin? All those would show design, yet things like that, even after looking at literally millions of animal species, are never seen.

Papias
 
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Skaloop

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Yes, and it would show an incredible lack of creativity and again, poor design. Why not make a whale that can breathe water, or a fish with stinging tentacles, or a pegasus or griffin? All those would show design, yet things like that, even after looking at literally millions of animal species, are never seen.

To test our faith, of course!
 
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shernren

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Great post Gluadys-

In addition to what Gluadys said, it's worth mentioning that the taxonomy is one way to detect design.

Specifically, when things are designed, they form overlapping categories. For instance, you mentioned the pencil-pen-broom example. That is a good example - there is no single natural taxonomy. Similarly, consider cars. Cars can be classified in number of ways - are they all wheel drive, or RWD? Do they have a radio, CD player, mp3 hookup, etc? What color are they? What make are they? Do they have leather seats? manual or auto trans? Try drawing those out as a venn diagram, and you'll see that they all overlap, with many crossings of lines. Now, do the same for life (make a venn diagram). Add other questions/groups too.

Does it have a nucleus? Does it have a backbone? Does it have a jaw? Does it have hair? Does it have legs? does it have leaves? Does it make pine cones? Does it have feathers? Does it have nipples (platypi don't), does it have hooves? Does it have a broken vitamin C gene? Does the species make cars with manual transmission?, etc. Add other questions/groups too.

Now compare the two. They are very different. In the car one, there are many crossing lines, while in the life one, there are very few if any. Those few usually disappear with a little discussion/research/rewording. For instance, one could be "does it have a post-anal tail?", in which case the apes appear to be out of place - until it is reworded as "does it have a post-anal tail at some point in it's life?" (we do, it is grown then reabsorbed before birth). When a venn diagram, the nested hierarchy is obviously radically different from design. Nested hierarchies result from evolution, while design doesn't make nested hierarchies.

Papias
But you have to stick to homologous traits, i.e. traits shared by virtue of common ancestry. For example, if you try to classify life based on just two questions: "Can it move?" (land animals AND sea vertebrates vs plants AND barnacles!) and "Does it live in water?" (land animals AND plants vs sea vertebrates AND barnacles!) you get a crossing. In this case, both sessileness at maturity and adaptation to aquatic habitats can be independently re-derived, so that the similarity in barnacles and plants is not so much due to a common ancestor as due to evolution in their natural habitats.

Is there a tautology then? "We define ancestry by shared traits, but our shared traits can only be those derived from common ancestry." Partially; but in this case it is the very existence of homologous traits that is testable. If you simply sort life according to any random assortment of traits, you may not necessarily get a nested hierarchy; but there is at least one set of traits which will give you a proper nested hierarchy - similarity of DNA sequence if nothing else. On the other hand, if you collate a large enough set of human-designed items, you will find that (to whatever confidence level you desire) there is simply no set of traits which will give you a proper nested hierarchy.

Also note that the species concept is in fact a simplification: it assumes that inherited characteristics are only transmitted through reproduction. It holds neatly for most macroscopic life, but not in the murky and chaotic world of bacteria where horizontal gene transfer messes up our neat little bush/tree-of-life metaphor.
 
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Papias

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shernren wrote:

But you have to stick to homologous traits, i.e. traits shared by virtue of common ancestry. For example, if you try to classify life based on just two questions: "Can it move?" (land animals AND sea vertebrates vs plants AND barnacles!)

Well, the questions can be better or worse. Better questions incorporoate variation while still being clear, like "can it move at some point in its life?". Don't forget that barnacles are free swimming as young, and only become attached as adults, so your does it move becomes better at distinguishing plants vs. animals.


"Does it live in water?" (land animals AND plants vs sea vertebrates AND barnacles!)

Yes, as matt's comment pointed out, convergence can make it easy to make mistakes. Compare the classic example of dolphin cow shark. Does it live in water? But better are: Does it breathe air? Does it have bones? Is it warm blooded? Does it have placental birth? and so on.

By taking those two points into account, it's not a tautology. Plus, as you point out,

there is at least one set of traits which will give you a proper nested hierarchy - similarity of DNA sequence if nothing else. On the other hand, if you collate a large enough set of human-designed items, you will find that (to whatever confidence level you desire) there is simply no set of traits which will give you a proper nested hierarchy.

While the nested hierarchy line of evidence is very powerful evidence for evolution, I generally don't use it when talking with creationists because it is not simple or quick to explain, so it generally isn't understood.

Papias
 
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shernren

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While the nested hierarchy line of evidence is very powerful evidence for evolution, I generally don't use it when talking with creationists because it is not simple or quick to explain, so it generally isn't understood.

I think the twin nested hierarchy is a simple, clear demonstration of evolution. :)
 
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shernren

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What's the purpose of taxonomy? What's the definition of a "species"? Should anyone care?

Indeed, what have the Romans ever done for us? How dare they take from us more than our specie. How dare they tax our money.

Unfortunately, to see the injustice of this requires us to free the shackles of our minds! More than anarchy, to see this takes anomie!
 
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Papias

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Shernren wrote:
I think the twin nested hierarchy is a simple, clear demonstration of evolution.

Yes. I sort of use that, in pointing out that many different lines of evidence (fossils, homology, molecular homology, genetics, stupid design/vestiges, embryology, etc.) all agree with each other.

The important point, which is worth spending extra time to drive home, is that they don't just agree that animals change into other animals - that's easy - but much more striking is that they agree on the same family tree.

They agree that this specific animal evolved from this other specific animal, over thousands of studies, using very different methods. For all those to agree shows that they have uncovered a solid truth, because if any of them were unreliable, it would give a wrong answer, and not the well established family tree of life.


Papias
 
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rcorlew

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Shernren wrote:


Yes. I sort of use that, in pointing out that many different lines of evidence (fossils, homology, molecular homology, genetics, stupid design/vestiges, embryology, etc.) all agree with each other.

*<snip>*

Papias

Nuh uhh, a purple ball can never ever become a red sign, no way, therefore evolution is not true and you are a liar liar pants on fire sitting on a telephone wire! :p

But seriously, taxonomy is using genetics now for most of its classifications for clarity. Although there are some problems with this method like "ring species" it is a more objective path than the subjective scientist who cannot see or know everything (by subjective scientist I am referring to naming conventions where the individual responsible gets to name the new species discovered and if that scientist thinks this new lion looks like a purple flower they would name it "lion purple flower"). I do not know if the conditions are still the same but I have read that in the recent years there would be "micro-battles" between taxonomists on different species.
 
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98cwitr

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if you've got tens of thousands of pictures on your computer are you just going to dump them into 'My Pictures' and then have to sort through them? No, you'll probably create subfolders to organize them, same goes along with the way we organize biology.
 
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Mallon

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if you've got tens of thousands of pictures on your computer are you just going to dump them into 'My Pictures' and then have to sort through them? No, you'll probably create subfolders to organize them, same goes along with the way we organize biology.
Why? In particular, why would an omniscient creator need to keep things organized if they know everything? There's no reason to think that a such a creator would do things this way.
 
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