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And the external evidence for the previous non-existence of thorns? Where is that?And yes, I am using external evidence.
Go out and look around.
I'm sure you'll find thorns somewhere.
And the external evidence for the previous non-existence of thorns? Where is that?
A Challenge in which the Challenger refuses pertinent questions, or avoids direct answers, is not a Challenge, but an exercise in self deception.
Maturity without history is not what we see around us. We see plenty of history.I'll take questions on Embedded Age Creation here.
I define Embedded Age Creation as: maturity without history.
Maturity without history is not what we see around us.
We see plenty of history.
One thing is to show a mature body, another thing is to show a body with lot of scars, long term sun damage, long term nutritional deficiencies, with worn teeth etc.
And the universe is exactly that - not just "mature", but full of history.
Okay, point taken, but then you went and changed it by claiming you were providing evidence. Post 395 if you want to go and see for yourself. And you provided no evidence. You just repeated the claim.Here's what you said in a previous post:
So you are saying the fundamental nature of the universe changed?
Please describe these changes in detail.
It sounds to me like you're accepting the fact that I'm saying the universe was different before the Fall, as you're asking how it changed.
If you accept the fact that I'm using the Bible to say the universe was different then, then why are you now claiming the Bible is not evidence for my claims?
And yes, I am using external evidence.
Go out and look around.
I'm sure you'll find thorns somewhere.
Okay, you really seem to be having trouble with this...And you don't understand what it is you're asking me to provide, when I give it to you.
You want specific examples in detail, here's one of the best:
Thorns.
Before the Fall, there were none.
After the Fall, they're everywhere.
Just like God said.
And if you don't accept the Bible as evidence, then your challenge to me to provide details of what changed is moot.
Since, in your mind, there's nothing that went from pristine to cursed.
And yes, we have thorns today, but absolutely no evidence that rose bushes were thornless before the fall.
Then you came in with this "It is HIS story" comment. I assume you meant God or Jesus. But that had absolutely NOTHING to do with the discussion about governments trying to alter historical records.
I am not talking about these biblical figures, but about the universe we observe.Correct.
We weren't there with Adam.
The only persons on Earth that had maturity without history were Adam & Eve.
No, it contains much more history than that. Not just maturity, but history. Like your teeth and skin are worn, not just mature.But the universe has only experienced history since 4004 BC.
Why should it be 6027 years old existentially? Where did you pull this number from.It might be billions of years old physically, but it's only 6027 years old existentially.
from 4004 BC up until 2024 AD. If we are to believe bishop Usher, it will be 6028 years somewhere in October 2024.Why should it be 6027 years old existentially? Where did you pull this number from.
I know where it is coming from, I am just waiting for a proper justification why should ancient genealogies (in the Masoretic textual family) be used for that. Where is any biblical instruction to do such thing.from 4004 BC up until 2024 AD. If we are to believe bishop Usher, it will be 6028 years somewhere in October 2024.
But I reject your default position, for it is in contradiction with everything I know and can see with my own eyes and you have never given any reason to accept your default position. Each of my questions in this thread went to the hart of the matter and each time you either deflected the question, or refused to go into the answer as now.I'm not going to waste my time doing that in a thread where the creation week is the default position.
I am not inclined to comply with that request.Then keep it out of this thread please.
Since the subject of this thread is embedded age, everything we see from before the alleged creation week is subject of this thread: the Lascaux cave paintings, the Deccan traps, supernovae remnants, the Andromeda Galaxy, the fused chromosome n° 2, Tiktaalik, etc.Anything you see, you see well after the creation week in 4004 BC, and is not the subject of this Q&A thread.
@AV1611VET's post above is a reaction to my post below.Not during the creation week, you don't.
Anything you see, you see it well after the creation week is long past.
The green part has been deleted by him in his reaction. Interesting that a post in which it is pointed out that AV1611VET omits relevant information, he deletes the most crucial part of the post and reacts to the least important, to the point of distorting the original message.It has been pointed out that we see supernovae remnants that have "never existed"; lava layers of eruptions that would have never happened, Civilizations outside the 6000 year time frame. This has been pointed out to you multiple times. Limiting "embedded age" to only Adam is lying by omission. You know that. Yet you decided knowingly and deliberately to spread a falsehood. That is up to you. But I will not be shy of pointing out that you can only defend your embedded age nonsense and your vision of christianity by omitting substantial information. By committing fraud. You really created a god in your own image.
So you are saying the fundamental nature of the universe changed?
Please describe these changes in detail.
1. I don't consider this as "fundamental". I would rather consider something like the charge of the electron, the speed of light, the strength of the strong nuclear force, etc. as fundamental.Yup.
I'll give you what the Bible gives:
Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Why should we? Is embedded age not supposed to be applicable to reality - you know, there is a whole Universe with alleged embedded age outside.And with that, can we please stick to Genesis 1 & 2?
I am not talking about these biblical figures, but about the universe we observe.
No, it contains much more history than that.
Not just maturity, but history.
Like your teeth and skin are worn, not just mature.
Why should it be 6027 years old existentially?
Where did you pull this number from.
I know where it is coming from,
... I am just waiting for a proper justification why should ancient genealogies (in the Masoretic textual family) be used for that.
Where is any biblical instruction to do such thing.
I am not inclined to comply with that request.
1. I don't consider this as "fundamental". I would rather consider something like the charge of the electron, the speed of light, the strength of the strong nuclear force, etc. as fundamental.
2. Provide any evidence that these things changed.
These myopic lenses allow us still to see more than blind faithThe universe we observe is through myopic lenses.
We can only go so far back in time, then things start to get fuzzy.
Nope. What exists only on paper is the alleged word of god.Only on paper.
None of these are fundamental aspects of physics. And to be pedantic, it's Thin Layer Chromatography.Wow.
You want me to throw in the Doppler Effect, the Coriolis Effect, the Rayleigh Effect, and Thin Layer Chromatology while I'm at it?
Just repeating the claim for which I asked evidence doesn't make the claim more evidenced. It just shows that you haven't any evidence.Changes occurred after Genesis 2, starting in Genesis 3.
Translation: let us ignore everything that is inconvenient.Genesis 3, ff is beyond the scope of this Q&A thread.
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