T

ian90 · May 23, 2005

Hi I have "a question for a Calvinist!"

"Total Inability. Man has sunk so far through the Fall that he is no longer capable of believing the gospel. He can no more repent and believe than a dead man can rise up and walk. This is all the result of the sin of Adam, who communicated this absolute inability, this loss of free will, to all his posterity."

I assume most of you believe this, if you don't then this question is not aimed at you:

Q: Why did God not mention total inability with the list of curses in Genesis 3?

I apologise if this has been posted before. Personally, I believe it's not there because it never happened... and the idea that since we are "spiritually dead" (I think being cut off from God suffocated us) we can not respond to the soul saving, life changing Gospel of Jesus Christ (which holds the power to salvation) is an argument supported by logic rather then scripture...

(2 Timothy 3:15 CEV)
(15) Since childhood, you have known the Holy Scriptures that are able to make you wise enough to have faith in Christ Jesus and be saved.

Put me right, I know you will. Can I also request that I don't get a large copy and pasted repsonse from some famous preacher - I'd like to know what you think in a clear and straightforward way.

Genesis 3:16-24 GNB

(16)And he said to the woman, "I will increase your trouble in pregnancy and your pain in giving birth. In spite of this, you will still have desire for your husband, yet you will be subject to him."
(17) And he said to the man, "You listened to your wife and ate the fruit which I told you not to eat. Because of what you have done, the ground will be under a curse. You will have to work hard all your life to make it produce enough food for you.
(18) It will produce weeds and thorns, and you will have to eat wild plants.
(19) You will have to work hard and sweat to make the soil produce anything, until you go back to the soil from which you were formed. You were made from soil, and you will become soil again."
(20) Adam named his wife Eve, because she was the mother of all human beings.
(21) And the LORD God made clothes out of animal skins for Adam and his wife, and he clothed them.
(22) Then the LORD God said, "Now these human beings have become like one of us and have knowledge of what is good and what is bad. They must not be allowed to take fruit from the tree that gives life, eat it, and live forever."
(23) So the LORD God sent them out of the Garden of Eden and made them cultivate the soil from which they had been formed.
(24) Then at the east side of the garden he put living creatures and a flaming sword which turned in all directions. This was to keep anyone from coming near the tree that gives life.

Further food for thought:

Augustus Strong:
"Man's present inability is natural, in the sense of being inborn, - it is not acquired by our personal act, but is congenital."

George Burnap:
"If this doctrine (total inability) is true, God did not tell man the true penalty, neither the truth, nor the whole truth, nor a hundredth part of the truth."

How.. er true!

-----------------------------------

Cheers, Jesus loves you all very much.

-------------------------------
APPENDIX - ROMANS (I expect a few response quoting this so here is my view for you to contemplate)

Romans 3:9-12 MKJV
(9) What then? Do we excel? No, in no way; for we have before charged both Jews and Greeks all with being under sin,
(10) as it is written: "There is none righteous, no not one;
(11) there is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God."
(12) "They are all gone out of the way, they have together become unprofitable, there is none that does good, no, not one."
David was talking about his enemies and fools, I don't think he meant himself.

I think the key verse is not 10/11. It is verse 9. Paul was telling the Jews and Greeks that they're all in the same boat - totally cut-off from God and in need of rescue.

No-one is better then another - the Jews are no better because they are God's chosen people, they are still covered in sin and need a saviour. The Greeks also are no better then the Jews just because God has now chosen them. They are totally covered in sin and need a saviour.

I do not see a doctrine stating that we are totally unable to respond to the Gospel in the Bible.

2 Chronicles 14:2 MKJV
(2) And Asa did the good and right in the eyes of Jehovah his God.

1 Kings 15:5 MKJV
(5) because David did what was right in the eyes of Jehovah, and did not turn aside from all that He commanded him all the days of his life, except in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.

1 Kings 15:11 MKJV
(11) And Asa did what was right in the eyes of Jehovah, as David his father did.

2 Kings 10:30 MKJV
(30) And Jehovah said to him, Jehu, because you have done well in doing the right in My eyes, and have done to the house of Ahab according to all that was in My heart, your sons of the fourth generation shall sit on the throne of Israel.

2 Chronicles 24:2 MKJV
(2) And Joash did the right in the eyes of Jehovah all the days of Jehoiada the priest.

1 Peter 3:12 MKJV
(12) For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous, and His ears open to their prayers. But the Lord's face is against those who do evil.

And my favourite:

2 Chronicles 25:1-2 MKJV
(1) Amaziah was twenty-five years old when he began to reign, and he reigned twenty-nine years in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Jehoaddan of Jerusalem.
(2) And he did the right in the eyes of Jehovah, but not with a perfect heart.

BBAS 64 · May 23, 2005

Good Day,ian90

T -- total depravity. This doesn't mean people are as bad as they can be. It means that sin is in every part of one's being, including the mind and will, so that a man cannot save himself.

Total inability:

KJV...Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

YLT ..
Joh 6:44 no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day;

No man Can it is universal in its scope, and speaks to ones ablity in a negitive sense.

dunamai

Thayer Definition:

1) to be able, have power whether by virtue of ones own ability and resources, or of a state of mind, or through favourable circumstances, or by permission of law or custom

2) to be able to do something

3) to be capable, strong and powerful

Part of Speech: verb

Only those who are "of" God can hear the Gospel, others can not hear.

Same greek word,

KJV:

Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Joh 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

Joh 8:46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

Joh 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

YLT,

Joh 8:43 wherefore do ye not know my speech? because ye are not able to hear my word.

Peace to u,

Bill

Antman_05 · May 23, 2005

why isn't trinity in the bible because its a theological word. same goes with T in TULIP.

Jon_ · May 23, 2005

Hi Ian,

The Word has innumerable references to the inherent sinfulness of mankind and man's inability to reconcile himself to God. I will let the Scriptures speak for themselves (all verses KJV):

(Gen. 6:5) And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

(Job 4:17-18) Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker? 18) Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly:

(Job 15:14-16) What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous? 15) Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight. 16) How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?

(Job 25:4-6) How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman? 5) Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight. 6) How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?

(Ps. 10:4-6) The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts. 5) His ways are always grievous; thy judgments are far above out of his sight: as for all his enemies, he puffeth at them. 6) He hath said in his heart, I shall not be moved: for I shall never be in adversity.

(Ps. 14:1-3) The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. 2) The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. 3) They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

(Ps. 51:3-5) For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. 4) Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. 5) Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

(Ps. 58:3-5) The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. 4) Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear; 5) Which will not hearken to the voice of charmers, charming never so wisely.

(Prov. 16:2) All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits.

(Prov. 20:9) Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?

(Ecc. 1:15) That which is crooked cannot be made straight: and that which is wanting cannot be numbered.

(Ecc. 3:15-16) That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past. 16) And moreover I saw under the sun the place of judgment, that wickedness was there; and the place of righteousness, that iniquity was there.

(Ecc. 7:20) For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

(Ecc. 8:11) Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.

(Ecc. 9:3) This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

(Ecc. 11:5) As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.

(Is. 41:24) Behold, ye are of nothing, and your work of nought: an abomination is he that chooseth you.

(Is. 41:26) Who hath declared from the beginning, that we may know? and beforetime, that we may say, He is righteous? yea, there is none that sheweth, yea, there is none that declareth, yea, there is none that heareth your words.

(Is. 45:4) For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

(Is. 53:6) All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

(Jer. 13:23) Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

(Jer. 17:9) The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

These are just the ones that I have noted in the Old Testament. You see that the doctrine is well-founded in Scripture.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

ian90 · May 24, 2005

no longer capable of believing the gospel.

Sorry I was looking for something... that answered this part. I should have been clearer.

I totally agree that "man's [inable] to reconcile himself to God", it's just that in Romans 1:

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

I find scripture says we are totally depraved; we cannot save ourselves, but I do not find the idea that we are not totally unable to respond to the Gospel.

This is the cornerstone of Calvinism, which I have not rejected, but I honestly do not find it in scripture. All those verses quoted above are before Jesus... when people could not call on God as "Abba, Father!"

John 1
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Titus 2:11
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Surely if my children are to be born with a curse that makes them unable to believe the gospel it would have been mentioned in the Garden of Eden? How do the above verses fit with total inabiity to respond to the Gospel? Thanks.

rnmomof7 · May 24, 2005

It is there.

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

They did die that day. They died spiritually.

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

That is way a man must be born again TO SEE THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

A man can not desire what he does not see and does not understand .

We see the effect of that spiritual death immediately. What did Adam and Eve do right away?

They ran and hid. When God called to them they did not come out and seek God or reconciliation Their eyes were blinded and their hearts hardened so that they no longer desired fellowship or reconciliation with God

Rom 3:11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

The light of Christ has come into the world ...but what does the gospel say ?

Men LOVED the darkness more than the light. That is because of the depravity of their heart.

A man can not respond to what he can not hear or see or understand..

Consider what the gospel tells us about the ability of the unsaved man

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Eph 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

1Cr 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

1Cr 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? [then] may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

The gospel only ceases to be foolishness when the Father draws and teaches them .

Jhn 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word.

Jhn 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Jhn 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

So brother all the world sees the light, all men know of God , the gospel is preached freely.. but only those that are regenerate and have eyes to see and ears to hear and a new heart will come . To the others it is "foolishness" and nothing more.

Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

In the greek the word "of" is "by "

It says every man taught BY the father will come to Him and be saved. EVERY MAN

1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Thank you Lord!

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

Jhn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

ian90 said:

Sorry I was looking for something... that answered this part. I should have been clearer.

I totally agree that "man's [inable] to reconcile himself to God", it's just that in Romans 1:

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

I find scripture says we are totally depraved; we cannot save ourselves, but I do not find the idea that we are not totally unable to respond to the Gospel.

This is the cornerstone of Calvinism, which I have not rejected, but I honestly do not find it in scripture. All those verses quoted above are before Jesus... when people could not call on God as "Abba, Father!"

John 1
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Titus 2:11
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Surely if my children are to be born with a curse that makes them unable to believe the gospel it would have been mentioned in the Garden of Eden? How do the above verses fit with total inabiity to respond to the Gospel? Thanks.

Click to expand...

BBAS 64 · May 24, 2005

ian90 said:
Sorry I was looking for something... that answered this part. I should have been clearer.

I totally agree that "man's [inable] to reconcile himself to God", it's just that in Romans 1:

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

I find scripture says we are totally depraved; we cannot save ourselves, but I do not find the idea that we are not totally unable to respond to the Gospel.

This is the cornerstone of Calvinism, which I have not rejected, but I honestly do not find it in scripture. All those verses quoted above are before Jesus... when people could not call on God as "Abba, Father!"

John 1
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Titus 2:11
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Surely if my children are to be born with a curse that makes them unable to believe the gospel it would have been mentioned in the Garden of Eden? How do the above verses fit with total inabiity to respond to the Gospel? Thanks.

Good Day ian90

I quoted NT verses spoken by the Lord himself. You can not respond to the gospel if you can not hear the Gospel.

Bill

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