Symbolism of the Seder Disproves Real Presence

[markme]

In the course of an offline discussion with a Christian who believes the Lord's Supper is purely symbolic, he made the following argument:
When Jesus and his disciples ate the Last Supper, they were celebrating the Passover. After all, they were all Jews, and they had celebrated Passover with the Seder meal all their lives – the bitter herbs dipped in salt water represent this, the unleavened bread represents that, etc. Everything about it is symbolic, and it’s all designed to remind the Jews of what God did for them when He brought them out of Egyptian bondage.

At the end of the ritual meal, which they all knew very well, Jesus said, in effect, “Wait! We’re not done,” and the disciples all wondered, “What is this? What is He doing?” And then Jesus added the breaking of bread and the sharing of the cup and said, “This is My body, this is My blood. Do this in remembrance of Me.”

Seen in that light, what Jesus did at the end of that Seder meal is clearly symbolic, and His words are not to be taken literally.
How would you respond to this argument?

 

[LJCTAM]

Markme, have you been to a modern Seder before? I mean the open door, the plate of food for Elijah, Haagaddah.. etc?

 

[Chrystal-J]

I would say that is it not symbolic. I would focus in the fact that the Last Supper is part of the new covenant, not to be compared to what was before. (Since the old would be 'done away with'.)

Hebrews 8:13
13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Luke 22:20
20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

 

[LJCTAM]

That is sort of what I was alluding to Chrystal.

 

[Andres88]

I suppose your own interpretation of events is superior to that of the ones who were present in the Last Supper and their immediate disciples.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

In his book, Jesus of Nazareth, by Pope Benedict XVI, he shows how scholars today believe that the Last Supper was a special Seder Meal not celebrated on Passover of that year, but probably on Wednesday. Jesus did this because he knew he would be die on the eve before the Passover, which would be 3PM Friday.

He points out how the Gospel of John's says;

Then they brought Jesus from Caiaphas to the praetorium.* It was morning. And they themselves did not enter the praetorium, in order not to be defiled so that they could eat the Passover. John 18:28

So, Jesus was arrested prior to the Passover meal which was to be observed by Jews.

Instead, Jesus arraigned to celebrate the Passover with his Apostles, before the actual date, because he would not be able to.

That being the case, it's probable Jesus did institute the Eucharist after the Seder meal itself.

However, his words clearly show that the bread and wine becoming his body and blood were more than just symbolic.

Also, the writings of the Apostles in the Didache as well as the tradition of the early Christians celebrating the Mass, show that they believed in the real presence of Jesus in the bread and wine, just as they were taught.

St Ignatius of Antioch wrote about the presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and if I find it, I'll post it.


Jim

 

[Tigger45]

John 6:50-67

King James Version (KJV)

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

It sure looks to me the Jews present didn't take Jesus' words symbolically.