Suffering

Andrew · Aug 22, 2003

I have a question for Andrew.

Do you think that Satan has power over God and if God does not want a child to be born blind he would have no control over his creation and stop it from happening?

It is obvious Satan has no power over God. But Satan is in this world. The time for him to be bound up in chains and cast into the lake has not come yet. Just watch CNN and look at all the trouble in the world. Satan is more active than ever becos he knows his time is short.

Do you think God wants babies born blind or lamed? You should know the answer. Now do you think God wants people going to hell? Again, you should know the answer. Now why then, do people still go to hell and babies are still born blind?

Benedicta00 · Aug 22, 2003

Do you think God wants babies born blind or lamed? You should know the answer. Now do you think God wants people going to hell? Again, you should know the answer. Now why then, do people still go to hell and babies are still born blind?

The thing is who are we to say how God views anything looking at it only from this side of heaven?

I do not know if God ordains such a thing or allows it. If he allows it, he can bring good from it, if he ordains it, think of it this way; a child who has special needs may be the grace that brings a family to repentance or a family who had no faith at all now having to search for answers that lead them to finding Christ. Is that then good or bad?

Suffering is not evil or bad in of itself but what we do with is what can make it good or bad. THAT is the power of the cross. We can transform suffering into grace but if we hang on to the worldly view of who is and who is not perfect then we open up ourselves to bitterness and oppression where we can not have the graces that God wants to give manifest. I know a blind baby will see in heaven but will the spirtually blind ever see, is this world all that we have?

Rejecting and cursing suffering can lead to despair and that can lead to loss of faith.

If things always go perfectly through out your life and you never suffer anything, how can you even recognize that you need God?

The bible says that we are to praise God in all things and I look at suffering like we have a opportunity to be like Jesus by accepting this cross and that is the power of the cross to transform the pain and destruction that Satan seeks and turn it into something beautiful for God.

I am not about to let Satan have my grace like that, that is spiritual warfare, not rebuking devils but humility, accepting our sufferings and then transforming them with the power of the cross.

Drotar · Aug 22, 2003

Well said, Shelb5. Very well said.

rnmomof7 · Aug 22, 2003

Andrew said:
Firstly, that verse does not in any way say that God made him blind.

Gosh, why dont you ask God to give you a blind child then, or one born without legs, then His glory can be revealed.

Did God ordain your birth? Your sex? Your parents? The place and time of your birth? Why would yo not believe that God also ordains the physical qualities we have?

The problem is we see things with human eyes and not Gods. God may not see the lack of sight or a limb as significant .After all he looks on the heart. God may have a distinct purpose for that child

the things of God are simple. A child can understand it, but not hocus pocus homophisolophical theologians trying to be smart.

If you preach that God ordains evil and does things like bring lame babies into the world then you havent understood the simplicity of the verse:

Joh 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

So is it your position that Satan is in charge of handicaps and that God is powerless in this situation?

The life in that verse is not life here on this earth . It is eternal life in Christ

Did Satan steal the life of John the Baptist? Christ?The Apostle Stephen?

When a blind baby is born into the world, the parents don't go:"Praise the Lord, this is abundant life!"

So, who's side are you on? the destroyer?

When the days comer when you can praise ALL the acts of God,you will understand

**
*
Hab 3:17**
Although the fig tree shall not blossom, neither [shall] fruit [be] in the vines; the labour of the olive shall fail, and the fields shall yield no meat; the flock shall be cut off from the fold, and [there shall be] no herd in the stalls:

**
*
Hab 3:18**
Yet I will rejoice in the LORD, I will joy in the God of my salvation.

**
*
Hab 3:19**
The LORD God [is] my strength, and he will make my feet like hinds' [feet], and he will make me to walk upon mine high places. To the chief singer on my stringed instruments.

Job 13:15**
Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him

Amen

*

Benedicta00 · Aug 22, 2003

Andrew,

Are you looking at this as if it is God's will that we all be perfect and wealthy?

Drotar · Aug 22, 2003

OK, what is every Calvinist talking about?

I'm one too, but what are y'all saying about John the Baptist? Is there something I should know about that?

Peter · Aug 24, 2003

Shame on you. As a reformed person you should know that suffering is part of the consequences of original sin.

rnmomof7 · Aug 27, 2003

Andrew said:
It is obvious Satan has no power over God. But Satan is in this world. The time for him to be bound up in chains and cast into the lake has not come yet. Just watch CNN and look at all the trouble in the world. Satan is more active than ever becos he knows his time is short.

Do you think God wants babies born blind or lamed? You should know the answer. Now do you think God wants people going to hell? Again, you should know the answer. Now why then, do people still go to hell and babies are still born blind?

If God did not will it ,it could not happen. Nothing can happen outside the will of God .

Satan can do nothing without the permission of God. He is a tool in the hand of a sovereign God.

I think we need to be alot less man (self centered) and be more God centered . This is not about us it is about Him

What we in our human condiotion see as

Benedicta00 · Aug 27, 2003

rn,

Do you see God has having a permissive will and a ordaining will or just a ordaining will?

Photini · Aug 27, 2003

I believe it is a combination of both.
I try to accept any suffering I may have as a chance to learn and benefit from it. This is probably one of the hardest things to do.

"The greater the love, the greater the suffering." --St Silouan the Athonite

"If God suffers in the flesh when He is made man, should we not rejoice when we suffer, for we have God to share our sufferings? This shared suffering confers the kingdom on us." --St Maximos the Confessor

"In the world you will have trouble; but have courage! I have overcome the world." -John 16:33

Reformationist · Aug 27, 2003

rnmomof7 said:
If God did not will it ,it could not happen. Nothing can happen outside the will of God .

Satan can do nothing without the permission of God. He is a tool in the hand of a sovereign God.

I think we need to be alot less man (self centered) and be more God centered . This is not about us it is about Him

Nicely said, and very God centered in itself.

God bless

Serapha · Aug 27, 2003

Reformationist said:
Do you believe that God ordains all of the suffering that we experience or do you believe that He merely permits it to happen or, maybe, a combination of both?

Thanks for your thoughts.

God bless

The permissive will of God allows us to inflict suffering on ourselves (or on others) as the result of our sins or our actions.

The perfect will of God gives the redeemed an eventual time of becoming whole again.... but in the meantime, the perfect will of God knows what is best.... His grace is sufficient ... and He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, so His grace is sufficient yesterday, today and tomorrow.

~malaka~

Reformationist · Aug 27, 2003

Malaka said:
The permissive will of God allows us to inflict suffering on ourselves (or on others) as the result of our sins or our actions.

The perfect will of God gives the redeemed an eventual time of becoming whole again.... but in the meantime, the perfect will of God knows what is best.... His grace is sufficient ... and He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, so His grace is sufficient yesterday, today and tomorrow.

~malaka~

Okay, soooo, the suffering that we experience is not something that is God's plan but something that He merely permits?

Serapha · Aug 27, 2003

Reformationist said:
Okay, soooo, the suffering that we experience is not something that is God's plan but something that He merely permits?

Have you read the book of Job?

`malaka~.

Reformationist · Aug 28, 2003

Malaka said:
Have you read the book of Job?

`malaka~.

Yes. Your point?

Serapha · Aug 28, 2003

Reformationist said:
Yes. Your point?

You stated,

"Okay, soooo, the suffering that we experience is not something that is God's plan but something that He merely permits?"

True.

God's perfect will for Job was that he remain a righteous person.

then satan entered the picture,

and because of the permissive will of God, satan was allowed to kill Job's family, to rob him of his finances, to take his health....

God's perfect will for Job at that time was to allow satan free reign over Job.

So, yes, I can say we experience suffering that isn't in God's plan but is something He permits.

~malaka~

Reformationist · Aug 29, 2003

Malaka said:
then satan entered the picture

By whose authority?

and because of the permissive will of God, satan was allowed to kill Job's family, to rob him of his finances, to take his health....

Who is the source of all power, to include any power that satan exerts over us? Not only did satan have to ask permission to harass Job, he had to ask God for the ability to do it.

God's perfect will for Job at that time was to allow satan free reign over Job.

So, yes, I can say we experience suffering that isn't in God's plan but is something He permits.

Pray tell, how can an eternal being, apart from whom nothing can happen, have a divine plan that doesn't include something? Do you think God's providence doesn't include your suffering? It sounds as if that's what you think. It sounds as if satan's harassment of Job surprised God and God said, "Well, okay, I'll permit it."

Do you think, just maybe, it was God's will that Job suffer so that Job could learn humility and so that God could be glorified?

I think you should give God a little more credit for the control He exerts over His creation, one of which is satan.

God bless

Benedicta00 · Aug 29, 2003

I will agree with you Don in this to a point.

You know I am a free will person, but God did not give Satan free reign over Job, he specifically said, and gave his permission to what Satan could and could not do to Job.

Job is a classic story of how the devil tempts us by inflicting suffering on us but temptation is what God ordained that Satan can do to us, why? Well, we dont know but all we do know is that Gods grace is enough to offer what ever we suffer back to him for his glory. Every trial and tribulation we encounter can be a grace from God if we do not reject it, but if we do reject it then we hand ourselves over to the temptations of the enemy.

Reformationist · Aug 29, 2003

Shelb5 said:
I will agree with you Don in this to a point.

You know I am a free will person, but God did not give Satan free reign over Job, he specifically said, and gave his permission to what Satan could and could not do to Job.

Absolutely Michelle. That is exactly what I'm saying.

Job is a classic story of how the devil tempts us by inflicting suffering on us but temptation is what God ordained that Satan can do to us, why? Well, we dont know but all we do know is that Gods grace is enough to offer what ever we suffer back to him for his glory.

Again, I agree.

Every trial and tribulation we encounter can be a grace from God if we do not reject it, but if we do reject it then we hand ourselves over to the temptations of the enemy.

Um...well...we were on a roll...

God bless

Benedicta00 · Aug 29, 2003

Um...well...we were on a roll...

Okay, I'll take you to task on this one. What happens to a predestined, saved believer when he rebukes his cross that God gave him to carry for his glory?

Suffering

What is God's role in suffering?

He ordains (sovereignly decrees) all suffering that we experience.

He permits, but does not ordain, the suffering we experience

A combination of both of the above.

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