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I'd agree that belief is simple, even a child can become a believer in Elohim (God) and Yeshua(Jesus) whatever terminology one uses, but Bible is highly complicated, difficult and hard to understand. and everybody comes to reading it with his own preset mentality and mindset, that's , in part, the reason why we have miriads of denominations and interpretations of the same text.
I strongly disagree that bible is straightforward, black and white and easy to get. Its not! As the poster above you mentioned, it also depends on the period in history one lives in. Some of the things advocated in Torah and the rest of Bible are plainly illegal and downright immoral in today's society.
Wow, that took some courage to say. How refreshing! You continue to impress me, TanteBelle. I'll discuss Scripture with you any day.You are right. Some things in the Bible are straightforward and there are many other parts that are not. No matter how frustrated I was at the time, I should have thought that post through more carfully before posting it. My apologies to all.
Wow, that took some courage to say. How refreshing! You continue to impress me, TanteBelle. I'll discuss Scripture with you any day.
.what Torah was this if it was not the Torah?
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
...one that is better than the original Torah? how many torahs do you think there are?
You are right. Some things in the Bible are straightforward and there are many other parts that are not. No matter how frustrated I was at the time, I should have thought that post through more carfully before posting it. My apologies to all.
Wow, that took some courage to say. How refreshing! You continue to impress me, TanteBelle. I'll discuss Scripture with you any day.
I guess it depends on your definition of Torah. The bible discusses different instructions or torah for different people in different environments and Different covenants. Different sacrifices and methods from the tabernacle wilderness to the first temple, to the 2nd and different priesthoods etc.
This is not to say- many instructions involving our relationship with Hashem and humanity are identical throughout the ages.
The NT scriptures are clear that the new gentile believers in Yeshua were not required to adopt all practices of their fellow Jewish believers.
oh dear, thats very nice and humble of you, but what for do you apologize? If i were to apologize for every error i make here, i'd need to do it trice a day at leastwe all are here to learn, - i am posting for that purpose for sure. If the iron stops sharpening iron, we might just close down the shop
So explain your idea of the New Covenant and i will explain what Jeremiah was talking about, after all he said the New Covenant was to put the Torah in the heart...what Torah was this if it was not the Torah?
Jeremiah 31
I will make a new covenant (New meaning another)
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant (It will be different)
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to [d] them, [e] "
declares the LORD.
33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time," declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
But you are suggesting this is a different Torah? one that is better than the original Torah? how many torahs do you think there are?
Well, I could say for being an utter drongo,but to be honest, when I went back and read it, it came across as nothing less than self-righteous. As if I had more understanding of scripture than you folks who are far above my years! And God forbid that I should think so of myself! I've only been in the faith 5 years. I'm afraid, humility is not a trait that is in my human natue! LOL! Oh crikey!
I guess it depends on your definition of Torah. The bible discusses different instructions or torah for different people in different environments and Different covenants. Different sacrifices and methods from the tabernacle wilderness to the first temple, to the 2nd and different priesthoods etc.
This is not to say- many instructions involving our relationship with Hashem and humanity are identical throughout the ages.
The NT scriptures are clear that the new gentile believers in Yeshua were not required to adopt all practices of their fellow Jewish believers.
It says 'I will make a new covenant' it does not say 'I will make a new Torah'. Read the scripture its plan and straight forward. A covenant is a binding agreement...Torah is a way of life they are completely different things. Many covenants throughout the generations but only one Torah.
I don't think that is right. A grafted in tree does not take on the DNA of the other. They remain and grow as one, but maintain their distinctives.No this is not one Torah for different people, G-d does not have double standards because when someone is 'grafted into the olive tree of Israel they are to keep the ways of Israel...as the disciple said that Moshe is taught in every synagogue every shabbat, granted they didnt know the shabbat would be changed for the day of Horus but never-the-less this was their ruling.
Tell us something we don't already know before assuming we've never heard of the protoevangelium.And the law of Christ, as you call it, was nothing new as he himself said that he came to bring back the sinners, so he ate at the table of the sinner not the table of the righteous. Similarly the 'gospel' was nothing new and is the first thing taught in the book of Genesis (and this is for you to find as I will not expose such things to those not seeking).
He fulfilled the Torah. He said: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."No where does it say that he came to destroy or change the Torah, no where..
This is plain not true. The Nicene Council settled a dispute over Christology. Jews weren't even discussed, as I recall (and having to do endless papers on the Councils at sem I think I have some confidence in this).this assumption developed only around AD 300 at the Gentile Councils under Constantine and developed because of a desire to make a new religion that could be followed while continuing to persecute Jews.
The Levitical priesthood was still passing away during Paul's lifetime. It is now gone. This is spoken of in many places in the NT.Even the Leviticus priesthood was not abolished and to prove this point Paul went numerous times to the Temple to make offering, even when Yeshua personally said to someone, you are healed and your sins are forgiven, he sent them to the Temple that they could fulfill all of Torah, something the unclean could not do.
I've spent hours on this forum presenting my position, complete with scriptures for years before you popped along. Relax.I would suggest, Contra, if you do not have the time to explain yourself then do not bother to post...I could easily say the same; you are wrong...go study but this isnt good enough and is something a teenager would say. People take the time to put forward their argument to you, such as Tishri, and you ignore all that is written because you so desperately hold fast to a false religion.
Now now...For some reason you think that Yeshua came to die for the sins of Torah, because it was wrong and corruptible, maybe you think he even came to die for the sins of G-d?
What on earth do you mean?if you think the so called 'old covenant' was so wrong? the only thing wrong with the old covenant was people saying it should not be followed, which is something affiliated to the new covenant also.
Are you a Christian? What/which Covenant/s are you bound to?Do not be fooled by those who say the ways of G-d change, from generation to generation as he is eternal and his way is eternal, not like the changing nations and the changing Church that begs for acceptance in each generation, needy of layman to continue what every previous dominating kingdom wanted to do, dominate the world...through force, through conversion, through peace or economics.
I knew you would say something like this. Having watched you for all this time I knew you had a lot of integrity and courage. Your family must be very proud of you. I would be.
He fulfilled the Torah. He said: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."
πληρῶσαι- (root πληρόωis the same Greek word used to describe the "fulfilling" of prophecy. Fulfilling a prophecy does not destroy or change it, it brings it to its final place (even fill up, level to the full, complete etc is ok here too. But it seems you take it to mean re-establish or stablish something like that?)
The Levitical priesthood was still passing away during Paul's lifetime. It is now gone. This is spoken of in many places in the NT.
Yes, there is more than one Covenant. The New one is superior- the NT says so. The Old one was a tutor, and could not achieve the same things. I really don't have the time to go over this yet again. Search the archives.
He fulfilled the Torah. He said: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."
"Μὴ νομίσητε ὅτι ἦλθον καταλῦσαι τὸν νόμον ἢ τοὺς προφήτας· οὐκ ἦλθον καταλῦσαι, ἀλλὰ πληρῶσαι"
πληρῶσαι- (root πληρόωis the same Greek word used to describe the "fulfilling" of prophecy. Fulfilling a prophecy does not destroy or change it, it brings it to its final place (even fill up, level to the full, complete etc is ok here too. But it seems you take it to mean re-establish or stablish something like that?)
Hi Contra, how have you been lately?
Have you considered Tim Hegg's paper on the use of this word? Taking several Hebrew translations of this verse and following the NT Greek back into the LXX he suggests that 'fulfill' is more properly translated 'affirm or support.'
John Lightfoot notes in his Commentary on the New Testament from the Talmud and Hebraica that 'It was the opinion of the nation concerning Messias, the he would bring in a new law, but not at all to the prejudice or damage of Moses and the Prophets; but that he would advance the Mosaic law to the very highest pitch...'
If the word fulfill means to do away with it, then I suppose the same would ring true for this ...
Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
'For thus it becometh us to do away with all righteousness'???? If you fulfil your role as a husband (I have no idea if you are married, sir, sorry), does that mean that you do away with your role as a husband? Or does it mean that you do it completely?
I don't think that's exactly right. Having read the Sermon on the Mount, the epistles and so much more in the NT I would say that the NT is clearly the highest moral standard on Earth. It's not easy to meet it's requirements. I believe this is what Paul was referring to as the Law of Christ and the Law of the Spirit of Life. It is also worthy of note that the moral aspects of the Mosaic Law are reaffirmed (and even made harder to keep in some instances) in NT. Clearly, God's moral laws were not abolished (as they cannot be, because they reflect His nature)Now I'm boggled, to be honest sir. You seem to have just contradicted your previous argument. It wasn't do be done away with but that Yeshua came to fulfil what the prophets had said about Him. If the torah is done away with, I'm wondering what morality is left if all you read is the NT 'laws'. You'll be left with a DIY religion.
There are many references to that. Heb 8:6-13 is a good one. Acts 13:39 Pretty much all of Galatians as well.Is there a scripture verse that says that the new is superior to the old? I'm simply asking here.
I agree. Unless you know your sin through the Law you will never know your need of a Saviour through the Gospel.For someone who first comes to faith, the torah still is our 'schoolmaster'. It's the difference between living by the letter of the torah and living by the spirit of the torah.
I think it's a little misleading by some translators to insert the word "Torah" into an English Bible for the Greek word "nomos", which means Law. The word "Torah" has too many meanings, is imprecise and carries with it certain undertones that make people want to buy tefillin and eat matzah all day. Paul's use of the Greek word nomos is far more clever and sophisticated than that.Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the torah are just before God, but the doers of the torah shall be justified.
People take the time to put forward their argument to you, such as Tishri
Do not be fooled by those who say the ways of G-d change, from generation to generation as he is eternal and his way is eternal,
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