Submitting to authority?

[superjsuh]

I was adamently against the Iraqi War... and I got into a debate with a brother who was pro-war and defended his stance that we have to trust our leaders by citing 1 Peter 13: "Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors"

His argument was that leaders were put in power by God, and so questioning their actions and decisions was equivalent to questioning God. I feel very strongly that the Bush administration misled us, and that Americans did not question him appropriately.

What do you all think? Am I missing the point of this passage?

Thanks for your inputs

 

[Sharky]

Nope. You've heard correctly.

You must and should submit to them because it talks in 1peter or 2peter that the government will then have no excuse when the time comes for judgement.

I think what you're worried about, and i'm with you on this, is what if they're making the wrong descisions and what if they put a law that God should not exist in your life etc etc. Well God takes priority. If the government is forcing you to sin, in this case they're doing the tempting and causing you to fall (God punishes those severely who do such things) like forcing you to kill people then obviously you can't follow that up. We are to follow the Spirit but submit ourselves to the governments authority.

Check out China. The government there will jail you for having a bible. There are lots of christians there who are in jail. They submit to the government but dont break what God wants them to do.

So yeah, just stick with your faith mate. you don't have to exactly agree every movement the government makes but you shouldn't defie them either.

 

[superjsuh]

Thanks for the reply.

Somehow I can't get Nazi Germany out of my mind. The Germans had no idea of the atrocities that Hitler was committing until after the fact. They did not question the leaders when they were being strung along for war. This is especially striking since Hitler sometimes quoted the Bible to appeal to his Catholic country.

In cases like this, do you defy, rebel, and question your leaders, or do you submit to them!?

Still doubtful, thanks for your patience

 

[Sharky]

Really to put it all in one sentence, you submit to them under the biblical guidelines.

If a government becomes corrupt, then submit to what is still biblical.

 

[flyfishing]

I was adamently against the Iraqi War... and I got into a debate with a brother who was pro-war and defended his stance that we have to trust our leaders by citing 1 Peter 13: "Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors"

His argument was that leaders were put in power by God, and so questioning their actions and decisions was equivalent to questioning God. I feel very strongly that the Bush administration misled us, and that Americans did not question him appropriately.

What do you all think? Am I missing the point of this passage?

Thanks for your inputs

I am sorry your friend is wrong. The LORD tells us to submit to those authoritys but questioning a mans desicion is not questioning the LORD. This is america and one of the great freedoms we have is the right to peaceful protest. The right to freedom of speech. If the war bothers your conscience enough and you feel like protesting then you should respectfully.

When the righteous are in authoruty the people rejoice but when the wicked they mourn. Read the book of esther, daniel, to see the appropriate way to protest. Sometimes you are called to make stands. If President Bush passed a law saying we could not worship on sundays would you obey that???

To much emphasis put on submission leads to compromise. Also as said before to use your free speech does not mean you are not in submission. That being said if i was drafted to a war that i did not believe in i would go but might protest first..And yes Gods ultimate plans will be accomplished in spite of a wicked king..

And president Bush is no christian..

 

[educk]

Hey fly

Careful with Bush - it's holy ground

 

[superjsuh]

flyfishing,
Very insightful response... thanks - and its not because I agree Bush is no Christian!

I actually talked about this passage with a seminary student just now. We agreed the context of Peter's message was directed at civil authority, not moral. In Romans 13, the same message is repeated and is in the context of paying taxes. Give to Caeser what is Caeser's. But we can (and should!) question our leaders when they make moral decisions.

In the case of the Iraqi War, I believe Jesus would have been right next to me in the anti-war protests.

 

[Rafael]

The apostles in the book of Acts did not obey the authority of men when it cameto not preaching the gospel of Christ. They were thrown in jail, beaten, and eventually all killed for their faith and actions taken upon the authority of God.....except for John who was exiled to the Ilse of Patmos.

Acts 5:40 And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.
41 And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.
42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.

 

[flyfishing]

Hey fly

Careful with Bush - it's holy ground

Well thanks for the warning educk, gotta share my heart. Its pretty obvious that this war is motivated by money..

I am sorry but i dont see a servants heart in Pres. bush. I saw that in Bill clinton. Pres. Bush has made some godly stands but i question whether it is to attract the Christian vote. in my mind he stands in trouble vs Kerry.. His national guard record is going to hurt him plus his ignoring the economy here.

Superjush. I feel your seminary student is wrong about the contextual thing. The bible indicates all authoritys. The war in Iraq is also for example not the same as telling us we cannot live Christian lifes which include witnessing,public prayer etc.

However since your conscience differs on this war,you have the right of protest given to you by your govt and our founding fathers. Doing so is in submission..


You are wrong about CHRIST being in the protest ranks though friend, this is a political matter and he would go to the troops and minister to them. He does not,and never will get involved in civil conflicts. the kingdom of GOD is his priority as should be ours...

 

[LuxPerpetua]

I think it is also important to keep in mind that in the early Church, since Christianity was the *upstart* religion so to speak, the best way to gain legitimacy was by working within the system. From the very beginning, Christianity was considered a threat to the state for some officials of the Roman government. For instance, when Jesus was born Herod sought to kill him because he was considered a threat to his political regime since he was called "king." By attempting to submit outwardly to authorities (Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and give unto God what is God's), there were fewer opportunities for governments to persecute the early Church, which in turn helped it to grow. From my understanding of early Christian history, usually (but not always) when persecutions did occur it was as a result of a band of outspoken Christians who refused to pay taxes to the government or recognize and respect governmental authority in secular matters. The Roman government was actually extremely tolerant of religious views so long as they did not interfere with the functioning of the state or disrupt the peace. However, God also used periods of persecution to spread His message, but I seriously doubt that He took much joy in watching His disciples tortured and executed. Christ Himself even prayed for the protection of His disciples from evil. Again, I think that the verse you are referring to should be viewed in this historical context.

 

[renaistre]

I was adamently against the Iraqi War... and I got into a debate with a brother who was pro-war and defended his stance that we have to trust our leaders by citing 1 Peter 13: "Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors"

His argument was that leaders were put in power by God, and so questioning their actions and decisions was equivalent to questioning God. I feel very strongly that the Bush administration misled us, and that Americans did not question him appropriately.

What do you all think? Am I missing the point of this passage?

I think your brother was right, and wrong . I think he was right about the war, but wrong in arguing that you shouldn't question our leaders. A couple of points:

- When Peter wrote that letter, Nero was the emperor. In case that name doesn't ring a bell, he was the one who blamed the Christians for the fire in Rome that he probably set. He was having Christians killed in the most horrible ways possible. Those were not the actions of a Godly man. So are we supposed to submit to athority? Yes. Does that mean that we have to agree with everything they do? Absolutly not.

- We have a form of govenment where every voting citizen is part of the authority. So trying to change things and voicing opinions are not "rebeling" against that authority.

So I would say that you have every right scripturally to be opposed to the war, as long as you don't engage in any illegal forms of protest.

-Evan

 

[flyfishing]

I think your brother was right, and wrong . I think he was right about the war, but wrong in arguing that you shouldn't question our leaders. A couple of points:

- When Peter wrote that letter, Nero was the emperor. In case that name doesn't ring a bell, he was the one who blamed the Christians for the fire in Rome that he probably set. He was having Christians killed in the most horrible ways possible. Those were not the actions of a Godly man. So are we supposed to submit to athority? Yes. Does that mean that we have to agree with everything they do? Absolutly not.

- We have a form of govenment where every voting citizen is part of the authority. So trying to change things and voicing opinions are not "rebeling" against that authority.

So I would say that you have every right scripturally to be opposed to the war, as long as you don't engage in any illegal forms of protest.

-Evan

very good concise post evan!!

 

[ethereal hope]

I'm not sure about civil disobedience either, especially regarding wars. Awesome topic.

Somehow I think there's a lesson in 2 Kings and Jeremiah about submission to an authority, but I'm not sure how to apply it to a country like America.

Jeremiah 27:

(6) Now I have given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, My servant.... (8) It will be, that the nation or the kingdom which will not serve him, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, and which will not put its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon, I will punish that nation with the sword, with famine and with pestilence...

And really, to us [Americans], that would be like being told to submit to Bin Laden. I hate to say it, but I don't think I'd believe a Jeremiah prophet (former native all cozied up to the bad guy) anymore than the pre-exiled Jews did. (Though I might be inclined to question the deaths of prophets like Isaiah, and the obvious bad turn of luck when the last Davidic king was taken captive.)

Saddam was a pretty bad character, and it must have been God's will for Saddam to be removed (since it happened) (and it seems fair in retrospect).

However, it seems that all the nations which were used as God's instruments of punishment, were in turn punished by His next "instrument". (Eg, the Assyrians were hit by Babylon, who was hit by the Medes, who were hit by the Greeks, who got taken down a peg by the Romans, and so on...)

All I'm really sure of, is that we can't expect any leader or any country to be God's "chosen" for long.

 

[flyfishing]

I'm not sure about civil disobedience either, especially regarding wars. Awesome topic.

Somehow I think there's a lesson in 2 Kings and Jeremiah about submission to an authority, but I'm not sure how to apply it to a country like America.

Jeremiah 27:

And really, to us [Americans], that would be like being told to submit to Bin Laden. I hate to say it, but I don't think I'd believe a Jeremiah prophet (former native all cozied up to the bad guy) anymore than the pre-exiled Jews did. (Though I might be inclined to question the deaths of prophets like Isaiah, and the obvious bad turn of luck when the last Davidic king was taken captive.)

Saddam was a pretty bad character, and it must have been God's will for Saddam to be removed (since it happened) (and it seems fair in retrospect).

However, it seems that all the nations which were used as God's instruments of punishment, were in turn punished by His next "instrument". (Eg, the Assyrians were hit by Babylon, who was hit by the Medes, who were hit by the Greeks, who got taken down a peg by the Romans, and so on...)

All I'm really sure of, is that we can't expect any leader or any country to be God's "chosen" for long.

I feel that the context of this scripture is that we are to submit quietly to GODS correction, and has nothing to do with any application to civil disobedience..

 

[RangeMaster]

This topic, is something that has been at the forfront of my mind every sence I became a Christian. I was in the US Navy when I became a Christian and I'm still in the Navy as I will be for about the next five and a half years. I strugle every day with it. "How can I lead people to you, oh Lord, if my job is to end their life as our government pleases?" I've been to see a Chaplin about it, but they don't understand this thought, considering they're non-combatents. They never have to worry about pushing that button that takes away 100 - 1500 lives in one swoop. That could be 100 - 1500 lives that never got a chance to know our Lord, the way we do.

pleas understand, this is the first time that I've told anyone this, with exception of the Chaplin. For us in the military, it can lead our shipmates to believe that we won't be able to do our jobs when the time comes to do it, and that becomes a security risk. I pray about this every night and every morning.

Rodney

 

[ethereal hope]

I feel that the context of this scripture is that we are to submit quietly to GODS correction, and has nothing to do with any application to civil disobedience..

Well, maybe you're right.

But what I was thinking of is that the pre-exile Jews had to make a choice between a local authority and a more powerful yet foreign authority, both of which claimed to be operating under God's authority. I wonder to which authority one should submit when there's more than one authority (eg, the Jews vs Babylon, or the US vs the Confederates, or the Axis vs the Allies, etc).

I also find it relevant that Jeremiah was willing to be locked up like a criminal, even though he was not really guilty of anything but speaking. He seemed to respect the Jewish authority, even though he didn't support it.

 

[flyfishing]

Well, maybe you're right.

But what I was thinking of is that the pre-exile Jews had to make a choice between a local authority and a more powerful yet foreign authority, both of which claimed to be operating under God's authority. I wonder to which authority one should submit when there's more than one authority (eg, the Jews vs Babylon, or the US vs the Confederates, or the Axis vs the Allies, etc).

I also find it relevant that Jeremiah was willing to be locked up like a criminal, even though he was not really guilty of anything but speaking. He seemed to respect the Jewish authority, even though he didn't support it.

Jeremiah was subject with peacefulness because it was the will of God..

 

[flyfishing]

This topic, is something that has been at the forfront of my mind every sence I became a Christian. I was in the US Navy when I became a Christian and I'm still in the Navy as I will be for about the next five and a half years. I strugle every day with it. "How can I lead people to you, oh Lord, if my job is to end their life as our government pleases?" I've been to see a Chaplin about it, but they don't understand this thought, considering they're non-combatents. They never have to worry about pushing that button that takes away 100 - 1500 lives in one swoop. That could be 100 - 1500 lives that never got a chance to know our Lord, the way we do.

pleas understand, this is the first time that I've told anyone this, with exception of the Chaplin. For us in the military, it can lead our shipmates to believe that we won't be able to do our jobs when the time comes to do it, and that becomes a security risk. I pray about this every night and every morning.

Rodney

My dear brother in Christ.. I have wavered about the war.. I even posted here before about how i felt it was somewhat wrong. Today i must say i was convicted of such.. before i read this i was listening to a man of god preach on the war and what would happen if we just left.. The scriture the LORD pointed out to me was the scripture in thessalonians. 2thessalonians 2:7 tells of the holy spirits hoplding back the forces of evil.. I saw the usa holding back iran from sweeping into iraq.. You are a minister of GOD.. I praise the Lord that you are there..

You have a mission to accomplish for the kingdom of GOD.. And the Almighty does have a plan for you.. He wants you to be his hand extended to your unit,and see that He is in control of all things. there is therefore now no condenmnation to those who are in Christ jesus. Dont let ole slewfoot confuse you.. He loves to make people feel bad about everything so that they dont share that joy of the LoRD.. Let that "joy of just knowing jesus" be your strength my brother. His peace be with you.. Love you and will pray for you..

 

[RangeMaster]

Thank you, Flyfishing, I needed that, deeply.

Rodney

 

[flyfishing]

Range Master thank you.. I get blessed and touched by the sincerity in peoples hearts cry.. He is coming soon.. Hold on and go out victorious with a shout of praise.