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Submission to authorities?

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Kehaar

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I've been reading recently about revolution/civil war etc. Romans 13:1-7 talks of submission to the authorities, speaking of rulers as God's servants and that by rebelling against them we rebel against God.

Acts 5:29 states we are to obey God rather than men.

So, my query is at what point do we 'rebel' against the authorites? When they clearly ignore or go against God? Yet Romans 13 would have been written in a time when christians were under the rule of a Roman empire, a pagan authority that did not recognise Christ, yet Paul still urged that christians should submit.

Can anyone clarify this for me? I'm starting to tie myself in knots as to what is and is not appropriate.

Thanks

:)
 

DIVA_for_Christ

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Nepenthe said:
I've been reading recently about revolution/civil war etc. Romans 13:1-7 talks of submission to the authorities, speaking of rulers as God's servants and that by rebelling against them we rebel against God.

Acts 5:29 states we are to obey God rather than men.

So, my query is at what point do we 'rebel' against the authorites? When they clearly ignore or go against God? Yet Romans 13 would have been written in a time when christians were under the rule of a Roman empire, a pagan authority that did not recognise Christ, yet Paul still urged that christians should submit.

The way I understand it is that we are to submit to the laws of the land. God instituted the original government and laws, however, throughout time it has been corrupted because of man. I believe that every law that does not go against the word of God we should be following for His laws govern order. However, if someone in the government (any person actually) were to tell us to do something that goes against God's word, we should obey God rather than man.

Can anyone clarify this for me? I'm starting to tie myself in knots as to what is and is not appropriate.

Thanks

:)

I've pasted Romans 13:1-7 in the message version. Might clarify for you.

Romans 13
To Be a Responsible Citizen

1Be a good citizen. All governments are under God. Insofar as there is peace and order, it's God's order. So live responsibly as a citizen. 2If you're irresponsible to the state, then you're irresponsible with God, and God will hold you responsible. 3Duly constituted authorities are only a threat if you're trying to get by with something. Decent citizens should have nothing to fear.


Do you want to be on good terms with the government? Be a responsible citizen and you'll get on just fine, 4the government working to your advantage. But if you're breaking the rules right and left, watch out. The police aren't there just to be admired in their uniforms. God also has an interest in keeping order, and he uses them to do it. 5That's why you must live responsibly--not just to avoid punishment but also because it's the right way to live. 6That's also why you pay taxes--so that an orderly way of life can be maintained. 7Fulfill your obligations as a citizen. Pay your taxes, pay your bills, respect your leaders.
 
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DawnTillery

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My husband and I just did a study on this and with the help of some commentary, this is what we used.

What is the relationship between the believer and the state? The question has been debated down through the centuries. Which is supreme, the church or the state? God pulls no punches in dealing with the issue, and what He has to say to the genuine believer is startling to some persons. Simply stated, God expects the genuine believer to live as a testimony of righteousness (doing what is right) while a citizen of this earth.
1. Be subject to civil authorities (v.1).

2. Government is ordained of God (v.1-2).

3. Government is ordained to promote good and restrain evil (v.3-5).

4. Government is ordained to provide benefits through taxes (v.6-7).

believers are to be subject to civil authorities. It does not matter how the civil authorities were appointed or by whom. It may have been by a senate, an army, or the people. The authority, whether just or unjust, whether legitimate or illegitimate, is to be obeyed.

However, the sphere of authority is to be noted. The government has authority only within the civil realm. The authority of the government does not extend beyond its position. For example, when Paul commands wives to obey their husbands, they are required to obey them as husbands, not as masters or as kings. Children are to obey their parents as parents, not as sovereigns. So it is in the case of government leaders.

When the laws of civil government conflict with the explicit commandments of God, then Christians must say, “we ought to obey God rather than men” (Acts 5:29). When a ruler claims divine rights, Christian believers must answer “no,” for the ruler is going beyond the civil authority delegated to him by God. The ruler is trespassing on territory which is not his But the Christian believer is to say “yes” to all civil matters not conflicting with the commandments of God. Scripture gives several reasons for this


: government is ordained by God; that is, the existence, the authority, the position, the offices of government are ordained by God. It is God’s will that government exist and that persons have the authority to rule within the state. There are three institutions ordained by God: the family, the church, and the government. All three exist because God set them up as the means by which men are to relate to each other and to Him as God. God has ordained...

· that the family exist as the means by which family members share together, and that the office of parents rule within the family.

· that the church exist as the means by which people share with God, and that the office of church leaders exercise authority within the church.

· that the government exist as the means by which citizens relate to each other, and that the office of government officials exercise authority within the state.

The institutions and their authority are ordained by God, and men are responsible for how they carry out their functions. Each of the three institutions has leaders who are faithful and do an excellent job, and each has leaders who are totally disobedient to God and do a terrible job. This includes the men who hold authority within various levels of government as well as men serving on various levels in the other two institutions. The fact to remember is that government is ordained by God, and rulers are answerable to Him: they shall give an account to God.



“Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God” (Romans 13:1).

“It is an abomination to kings to commit wickedness: for the throne is established by righteousness” (Proverbs 16:12).

“And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he shall sit upon it in truth” (Isaiah 16:5).

1. The believer is not to resist the government because resistance equals resisting the ordinance of God. Note three points.

a. Christianity must not become confused with a political movement nor with a national government. Christ has nothing to do with insurrection, rebellion, or civil disobedience. Christians are not to be identified with murder and assassination; nor are they to be known as terrorists. They are not to cause havoc upon people nor wreck communities.

b. There is one exception to resisting government that is allowed the believer. When rulers begin to exercise personal and immoral mastery over human life, then the believer is to obey God and not man. The believer is always to follow after righteousness, that is, morality and justice. However, note a crucial point: the morality and justice pursued must be the morality and justice of Scripture and not of man’s making. (See note—§ Romans 13:1 for more discussion.)

c. World leaders are in the hands of God and are playing their part under His sovereign administration. This is a great comfort to the heart of the Christian believer (although it may not be to the unbeliever), for it means that God is working in the affairs of world leaders. He holds the world in His hands. He is taking the failure and evil of nations and leaders and working “all things out for good to those who love Him and are called according to His purpose” (Romans 8:28).
2. The believer who resists the authorities will be condemned. The word “damnation” (krima) means judgment. The idea is that the disobedient believer will have to face the judgment of God if he disobeys the just laws of government. Some commentators think this refers to the judgment of the civil authorities. There is no question, if the believer is caught breaking the laws of the state, he will be punished. However, the civil authorities may never catch the believer; but God knows every law broken by the believer, and by resisting the laws of the state the believer has broken the law of God. Therefore, the believer stands guilty before God, and he shall be judged by God.


2. Rulers are the ministers of God for good: to maintain the welfare of its citizens. Note that the civil authority rules for the citizens’ good. This verse is merely reviewing what has already been said in the preceeding three verses.

a. The office of ruler is ordained by God for good; it is for the welfare and the good of the citizens.




1. Rulers are not ordained to be a restraint upon good works, but upon evil. Civil authorities and laws exist to restrain evil; therefore, any believer who breaks the law can expect to be punished by the state. For this reason, the believer should...

· fear the state enough to obey its laws.

· do that which is good and lawful.

By fearing and doing that which is good and lawful, the believer has the praise of the state. The idea is that the believer contributes to the good and to the praise of the state. He helps to build up righteousness and truth within the state, and thereby he is able to be the citizen of a good and praiseworthy state. The believer has the praise of the state; he is allowed to live in peace as a citizen of the state.



b. The believer is to fear breaking the laws of the state because the civil authority exists to maintain order by punishing evil-doers or lawbreakers.



3. The believer is to obey the state for conscience’ sake as well as out of fear of punishment. There are two reasons for obeying civil laws:

Þ For wrath’s sake, that is, fearing the punishment of the state.

Þ For conscience’s sake, that is, fearing the punishment of God.

There are two ways in which conscience is involved. First, the Christian believer is told that God ordains government and that to resist government equals resisting God’s ordinance. Therefore, the believer has a principle to govern his conscience: to abuse his citizenship is to resist God’s will and to violate his conscience.

Second, conscience determines a man’s state of being. A restful conscience brings peace to a man; a disturbed conscience brings restlessness and pain. The man in rebellion against his government disturbs his conscience and lives under the restless fear of being caught and punished.


government is ordained to provide benefits through taxes. Note three points.

1. Rulers are God’s ministers who are appointed for this “very thing”; that is, God appoints rulers as ministers to minister to the people. The rulers are to minister by providing certain benefits for the citizens.

a. The government provides justice, protection, and services for its citizens. It is the agreement between the law and the people to live by the law that keeps the strong from dominating the weak. It keeps life from becoming the law of the jungle. It is also the state that often provides services such as roads, public transportation, and electricity.

b. The government keeps the world from diving into chaos. Whatever peace is known within a country, it is known through the government that exists. It is not perfect peace, but usually within its boundaries there is a semblance of peace. Therefore, man is to work for worldwide peace through the framework of government.

2. The believer is, therefore, to pay taxes. Every citizen is obligated to the government for the benefits which he receives from the state. Certain benefits come from the cooperative effort of people within a state. A man could not receive these benefits acting as an individual. These benefits and privileges are his because the government has brought them about. Therefore, the man is obligated to the state to pay his share.



3. The believer is not only to pay taxes, but he is to pay whatever is due to every man. The word “pay” (teleo) means to fulfill or to complete. The believer is to fulfill his obligations no matter what they are.

Þ If a nation is due tribute (taxes), he is to pay his tribute.

Þ If a civil authority is due custom (taxes), he is to pay his custom.

Þ If an authority or person is due fear, he is to reverence the authority or person.

Þ If an authority or person is due honor, he is to honor the authority or person.

Very simply, the believer is to live above reproach before all men, and this includes being a good citizen of his government.
 
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Sketcher

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Very good, Dawn. The only exceptions to Romans 13:1-7 as you described are when the government orders you to sin. For example:

"The king of Egypt said to the Hebrew midwives, whose names were Shiphrah and Puah, 'When you help the Hebrew women in childbirth and observe them on the delivery stool, if it is a boy, kill him; but if it is a girl, let her live.' The midwives, however, feared God and did not do what the king of Egypt had told them to do; they let the boys live. Then the king of Egypt summoned the midwives and asked them, 'Why have you done this? Why have you let the boys live?' The midwives answered Pharaoh, 'Hebrew women are not like Egyptian women; they are vigorous and give birth before the midwives arrive.' So God was kind to the midwives and the people increased and became even more numerous. And because the midwives feared God, he gave them families of their own." - Exodus 1:15-21

"Then they called them in again and commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. But Peter and John replied, 'Judge for yourselves whether it is right in God's sight to obey you rather than God. For we cannot help speaking about what we have seen and heard.'" -Acts 4:18-20

These kinds of situations don't happen very much today, at least in this country.
 
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Simonline

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ScottishJohn said:
Question for Dawn and anyone else who is interested, (those who are not please feel free to ignore):

Does this passage from Romans and the explanation given by Dawn mean that the American War of Independance was not a biblical action?

The Americans were right to secede from the English. What we were doing to the American colonies was deplorable. George III was a tyrant, a spoilt little brat who should have been put over his mother's knee and had his bottom smacked.

The Declaration of Independence of the Thirteen Colonies
In CONGRESS, July 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. —Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain [George III] is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us, in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty and perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by the Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

The signers of the Declaration represented the new states as follows:

New Hampshire

Josiah Bartlett, William Whipple, Matthew Thornton

Massachusetts

John Hancock, Samual Adams, John Adams, Robert Treat Paine, Elbridge Gerry

Rhode Island

Stephen Hopkins, William Ellery

Connecticut

Roger Sherman, Samuel Huntington, William Williams, Oliver Wolcott

New York

William Floyd, Philip Livingston, Francis Lewis, Lewis Morris

New Jersey

Richard Stockton, John Witherspoon, Francis Hopkinson, John Hart, Abraham Clark

Pennsylvania

Robert Morris, Benjamin Rush, Benjamin Franklin, John Morton, George Clymer, James Smith, George Taylor, James Wilson, George Ross

Delaware

Caesar Rodney, George Read, Thomas McKean

Maryland

Samuel Chase, William Paca, Thomas Stone, Charles Carroll of Carrollton

Virginia

George Wythe, Richard Henry Lee, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Harrison, Thomas Nelson, Jr., Francis Lightfoot Lee, Carter Braxton

North Carolina

William Hooper, Joseph Hewes, John Penn

South Carolina

Edward Rutledge, Thomas Heyward, Jr., Thomas Lynch, Jr., Arthur Middleton

Georgia

Button Gwinnett, Lyman Hall, George Walton

For additional information about the Declaration of Independence, see these sites:

Simonline.
 
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ScottishJohn

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Simonline said:
The Americans were right to secede from the English. What we were doing to the American colonies was deplorable. George III was a tyrant, a spoilt little brat who should have been put over his mother's knee and had his bottom smacked.

I would be interested to know how you get from Romans to your statement. I understand some of the problems surrounding government, and the failures of George the III, but I still cannot get from ALL authorities being established by God for our good, to MAN choosing which authorities he likes and does not like.
 
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Simonline

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ScottishJohn said:
I would be interested to know how you get from Romans to your statement. I understand some of the problems surrounding government, and the failures of George the III, but I still cannot get from ALL authorities being established by God for our good, to MAN choosing which authorities he likes and does not like.

But it's not a case of which authorities God either 'likes' or 'dislikes' is it, since God does not show favouritism. The issue is: are those in authority doing the task, for which God has apointed them, in a just and fair way (consistent with the absolute Nature of God) or are they exploiting their position and power for their own ends?

God doesn't just judge on an individual level. He also judges on a communal or 'national' level too. God has a habbit of providing people on all levels (even people in authority) with enough rope to hang themselves and then disposing of the bodies when they've done it.

The thing to remember is that God is NEVER on anyone's side. The issue is whether people are on the side of Righteousness ('God's side') or on the side of wickedness. That is the issue that will ultimately decide the fate of both individuals and nations.

Monarchs have as much responsibility (and accountability) to God and their subjects to lead justly as their subjects have to faithfully submit. Subjects are not 'personal slaves' of the monarch (or state in the case of a republic or dictatorship). The 'Divine Right of Kings' was never intended to be a licence for the monarch/ head of State to indulge his (or her) every whim as many of Israel's monarchs discovered, to their cost.

God rarely 'climbs out of the sky' in order to rectify injustice. Often he gets others to do it for him (Gen.9:6).

Simonline.
 
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ScottishJohn

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Simonline said:
But it's not a case of which authorities God either 'likes' or 'dislikes' is it, since God does not show favouritism. The issue is: are those in authority doing the task, for which God has apointed them, in a just and fair way (consistent with the absolute Nature of God) or are they exploiting their position and power for their own ends?

The issue at the heart of this is WHO IS QUALIFIED TO JUDGE?

Simonline said:
God doesn't just judge on an individual level. He also judges on a communal or 'national' level too. God has a habbit of providing people on all levels (even people in authority) with enough rope to hang themselves and then disposing of the bodies when they've done it.

I disagree - and you seem to disagree with yourself - you say God doesn't just judge on an individual level - and then give examples of him judging rulers on an individual level. We musn't be drawn into the trap of thinking God judges in the same way we do. When he judges a nation he does so KNOWING the heart and thoughts of each individual within that nation. I am not aware of any examples of God ignoring the individual in fact quite to the contrary considering the passage about saving the city if there were one good man found we read in Genesis 18:16-33.

Simonline said:
The thing to remember is that God is NEVER on anyone's side. The issue is whether people are on the side of Righteousness ('God's side') or on the side of wickedness. That is the issue that will ultimately decide the fate of both individuals and nations.

Yet which one of us is not sinful? George III was a devoted husband father of 15 children and a very sick man. Do you view the American Revolution as God punishing George III for his illness?

Simonline said:
Monarchs have as much responsibility (and accountability) to God and their subjects to lead justly as their subjects have to faithfully submit. Subjects are not 'personal slaves' of the monarch (or state in the case of a republic or dictatorship). The 'Divine Right of Kings' was never intended to be a licence for the monarch/ head of State to indulge his (or her) every whim as many of Israel's monarchs discovered, to their cost.

Yet many worse tyrants survive without revolutions, so can we conclude that revolution is a man made state of affairs rather than a God sent punishment for bad rulers? As far as I can read int he Bible judgement comes AFTER death and not before. Evil within ones lifetime is punishable over eternity.

Simonline said:
God rarely 'climbs out of the sky' in order to rectify injustice. Often he gets others to do it for him (Gen.9:6).

Simonline.


Interesting, but still does not answer the question. How are we to interpret verse 1 of chapter 13 of Romans:

Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
 
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Tenorvoice

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MOD HAT ON!!

wstrn6.jpg


Alright guys, lets not get into a debate here. There are plenty of ways to get a point across without turning things into a debate.

MOD HAT OFF
 
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