Sts. Simon and Jude

[judechild]

Today on the Roman Calendar it is the Feast of Sts. Simon and Jude. I have a great devotion to Jude, and even though he only makes cameo appearances in Scripture, his martyr's fidelity to Our Lord and his friendship with Christ have inspired me for as long as I've known about him. Before I was Baptized, I "discovered" Jude, and I believed that he had been praying for me the whole time I spent in Atheism. Gratefully, I took his name as my Confirmation Saint.

I've found that in the times when I'm in terrible temptation to do one thing or another, asking for Jude's intercession allows me to remain open to Grace, so I can resist temptation and continue to love God.

The prayer in the Breviary today is:

"Father,
you revealed yourelf to us
through the preaching of your apostles Simon and Jude.
By their prayers,
give your Church continued growth
and increase the number of those who believe in You.
Grant this through our Lord Jesus Christ, you Son,
Who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit,
one God, for ever and ever.
Amen."

Happy Feast of Sts. Simon and Jude! Ora pro nobis.

 

[Presentist]

I've found that in the times when I'm in terrible temptation to do one thing or another, asking for Jude's intercession allows me to remain open to Grace.

In that situation, why wouldn't you pray to God instead of praying to a fellow human?

.

 

[judechild]

If you ever ask a person to pray for you, the question is irrelevent because you know why I will ask another person to pray for me, especially in temptation. Besides, I didn't say "I pray to St. Jude instead of God." That is your assumption.

If you would never ask a person to pray for you, then you'll have to explain St. Paul injunction to "first of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone" (1 Tim. 2:1).

Please allow me to lay out the next 4-8 posts:

Next, you're going to ask whether God forbids communication with the dead. To which I will rhetorically ask: "are you a member of the Body of Christ now? You, being well-versed will say "yes" and cite Ephesians, or similar: "so then you are no longer stangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the holy ones and members of the household of God" (2:19). After that, I will rhetorically ask: "When you die, will you still be a member of the body of Christ?" To that, you may say yes, and cite Romans 8:39: "nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord." After that, I will rhetorically ask if God is the God of the living or of the dead, and you will say "the living" and cite St. Paul who says precisely that.

With these responses, I will say "well, then, if God is God of the living, and the Saints who have gone before us are still members of Christ's Body, they are still alive, and they follow Paul's injunction to pray for others." Because Catholicism is a much more relational religion than Protestantism, Catholics are in the practice of asking others to pray for them because God allows Grace to come through others' intercession.

You may use the rhetoric of "necromancy." We are certainly not committing some kind of necromancy because that practice is the attempt to circumvent God in order to get advice or information about the future from the deceased. We are not circumventing God when we ask for prayer. I will also point out that Jesus talked to "dead" Moses and Elijah, but He is not a necromancer.

Of course, I'm not going to convince you, and you're not going to convince me, and we both know what your next posts and my next responses will be. So why don't we assume the debate has already occured, and that neither of us has changed our position, and that way we don't have to go through the usual dialogue?

In my experience, I have found that praying to St. Jude when in temptation helps me to avoid sin. Jude has helped and inspired me quite a bit, so I will continue; and I will honor him and his faithfulness to our Lord by celebrating his feast day.

 

[Presentist]

In my experience, I have found that praying to St. Jude when in temptation helps me to avoid sin.

I am suggesting that when you are in temptation that you pray to God, not to St. Jude.

.

 

[Presentist]

We are not circumventing God when we ask for prayer. I will also point out that Jesus talked to "dead" Moses and Elijah, but He is not a necromancer.

Do you also ask your deceased friends and relatives to pray for you as well?

.

 

[judechild]

I am suggesting that when you are in temptation that you pray to God, not to St. Jude.

I am suggesting that you are setting up a false dichotomy by saying that I need to pray to God or to Saint Jude. Oftentimes if I don't pray to Jude, I don't pray to God. It's the same thing as when you ask another to pray for you.

I've put a Catholic hymn in the post-script that is often sung on Saints' Feast days. It doesn't separate the prayer for intercession from the honored Saint from God's Providence.

Do you also ask your deceased friends and relatives to pray for you as well?.

I don't know if they are in heaven, so no.

And now the Feast of Sts. Simon and Jude is complete. The Church's Liturgy gives a sign of the role of the intercessory prayer of the Saints. This feast, and All-Saints Day lead up to the Solemnity of Christ the King. Christ the King is the last day of the Liturgical year, and represents our goal. The prayer of the Saints helps us toward that goal, and so the readings at Mass will now be increasingly taken from the Book of Revelation. The Reading in the Liturgy of the Hours for Evening Prayer 1 of All-Saints Day is: "You have drawn near to Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to myriads of angels in festal gathering, to the assembly of the first-born enrolled in heaven, to God the judge of all, to the sirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood which speaks more eloquently than that of Abel" (Heb. 12:22-24).

_____________________________________

By All Your Saints Still Striving

By all your saints still striving
For all your saints at rest,
Your holy name, O Jesus,
Forevermore be blest!
You rose, our King victorious,
That they might wear the crown
And ever shine in splendor
Reflected from your throne.

Praise, Lord, for your apostles,
Saint Simon and Saint Jude.
One love, one hope impelled them
To tread the way, renewed.
May we with zeal as earnest
The faith of Christ maintain,
Be bound in love together,
And life eternal gain.

Then let us praise the Father
And worship God the Son
And sing to God the Spirit,
Eternal Three in One,
Till all the ransomed number
Who stand before the throne,
Ascribe all power and glory
And praise to God alone.

(This is not the best singing, but it's the best I could find on Youtube)

By All Your Saints Still Striving Feast Day Catholic Hymn - YouTube

 

[judechild]

Sts. Simon and Jude, pray for us.

 

[DArceri]

Sts. Simon and Jude, pray for us.

Hmmm...Didn't know they were omnipresent. It would probably be wise to ask one of your friends to pray for you. At least you will know you are being prayed for.... Just saying.

God Bless.



.

 

[Presentist]

I have found that praying to St. Jude when in temptation helps me to avoid sin.

That is your choice.

I, on the other hand, will pray...

"Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen."

.

 

[judechild]

Hmmm...Didn't know they were omnipresent. It would probably be wise to ask one of your friends to pray for you. At least you will know you are being prayed for.... Just saying.

You get no points for originality. Heaven is not in time or space; they are not omnipresent, but they are united with Christ to a degree that neither loses their individualization, but also are in possession of spiritual gifts. I do know I'm being prayed for, because they are still members of the Body of Christ, and I believe that Christ's union is stronger than death.

I, on the other hand, will pray

You're the first person I've met who can sound pompous about praying the Our Father.

Like I already said, you're setting up a false dichotomy when you say I must either pray to Saint Jude, or to God.

In the Liturgy of the Hours - which has prayers for every day, seven times a day - the Common of Apostle is used to commemorate Sts. Simon and Jude. A part of Morning Prayer is the Intercessions:

"Beloved friends, we have inherited heaven along with the apostles. Let us give thanks to the Father for all his gifts:
The company of apostles praises you, O Lord.

Praise be to you, Lord, for the banquet of Christ's body and blood given us through the apostles,
Which refreshes us and gives us life.
The company of apostles praises you, O Lord.

Praise be to you, Lord, for the feast of your word prepared for us by the apostles,
Giving us light and joy.
The company of apostles praises you, O Lord.

Praise be to you, Lord, for your holy Church, founded on the apostles,
Where we are gathered together into your community.
The company of apostles praises you, O Lord.

Praise be to you, Lord, for the cleansing power of baptism and penance that you have entrusted to your apostles,
Through which we are cleansed of out sins.
The company of apostles praises you, O Lord.

Our Father, Who art in Heaven; Hallowed be Thy...

___________________________

There is a reason that that hymn I gave in my last post says "Till all the ransomed number who stand before Your Throne / Ascribe all power and glory and praise to God alone."

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Today on the Roman Calendar it is the Feast of Sts. Simon and Jude. I have a great devotion to Jude, and even though he only makes cameo appearances in Scripture, his martyr's fidelity to Our Lord and his friendship with Christ have inspired me for as long as I've known about him. Before I was Baptized, I "discovered" Jude, and I believed that he had been praying for me the whole time I spent in Atheism. Gratefully, I took his name as my Confirmation Saint.

I've found that in the times when I'm in terrible temptation to do one thing or another, asking for Jude's intercession allows me to remain open to Grace, so I can resist temptation and continue to love God.

The prayer in the Breviary today is:

"Father,
you revealed yourelf to us
through the preaching of your apostles Simon and Jude.
By their prayers,
give your Church continued growth
and increase the number of those who believe in You.
Grant this through our Lord Jesus Christ, you Son,
Who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit,
one God, for ever and ever.
Amen."

Happy Feast of Sts. Simon and Jude! Ora pro nobis.

Thanks for posting this!

The prayer in our Breviary (Lutheran) for today is:

Almighty God, You chose Your servants Simon and Jude to be numbered among the glorious company of the apostles. As they were faithful and zealous in their mission, so may we with ardent devotion make known the love and mercy of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, who lives and reigns with You and the Holy Spirit, one God, now and forever.

Amen.

God bless!

 

[judechild]

Amen.

God bless!

That's great. That prayer sounded a lot like the prayer used at Mass yesturday.

 

[DArceri]

You get no points for originality. Heaven is not in time or space; they are not omnipresent, but they are united with Christ to a degree that neither loses their individualization, but also are in possession of spiritual gifts. I do know I'm being prayed for, because they are still members of the Body of Christ, and I believe that Christ's union is stronger than death.

Sorry to bust your bubble, but God created time and space for His creation. Heaven was created in Genesis. Read it. Only God can exist outside of time, for He is self-sustaining, self-existant... He is the great I AM. That is why he can be omnipresent and omniscient. Another point about Heaven, don't we see Heavenly Jeruselem being brought down from above at the end of this age. And is there not tasks that the Lord will provide for us. Will we not be working for Him and worshipping Him forever.. It may be another time dimension but we will definitely occupy time and space my friend, for we are not God. Even angels occupy time and space. So go ahead, pray along with a million other Catholics friends to Jude, maybe he will hear your request, and maybe not. But don't count on him hearing thousands of prayers directed at him in a matter of seconds and then respond to your one specific request out of the million directed at him. For unless God has assigned Jude the task of following your life from beginning to end, he is with all the other saints in a PLACE called Heaven. Do they pray for the persecuted on earth and justice to come quickly? ABSOLUTELY.

 

[judechild]

WHO SAYS!!!

My, that was quite loud. Be careful or you'll strain your voice.

God created time and space for His creation. Heaven was created in Genesis. Read it.

Ah yes, "Thus the heavens and the earth and all their array were completed" (2:1). Of course, "Heavens" refers to the Sun and Moon and stars, and not "Heaven" and so this can't be the verse Your Lordship is talking about.

Now I've found it; it's Genesis 1:18 1/2: "Then God said 'let Heaven come to be, and exist in space and time.'" My mistake sir.

Only God can exist outside of time, for He is self-sustaing, He is the I AM.

That is why he can be omnipresent and omniscient.

I agree with saying that God is self-sustaining, because He is the only being whose essence is existence; meaning that He cannot not exist. He is the Necessary Being, and all others are contingent on Him. But by no rational method does it follow that God is the only being outside of time and space. That is an assumption that you haven't supported.

Another point about Heaven, don't we see Heavenly Jeruselem being brought down from above.

In John's vision certainly; but then, he has to describe an unimaginable experience to the rest of us in terms that we can begin to understand. I doubt you'll try to convince me that John actually counted all the eyes on the Beast.

And is there not tasks that the Lord will provide for us. Will we not be working and worshipping him forever.. It may be another time dimension

I see, another time dimention - that certainly explains everything. You'll have to forgive me for believing that our goal is to worship God forever. I'll continue to listen to the priest when he says "And so with all the choirs of angels and saints we join in Your unending hymn of praise 'Holy, holy, holy Lord, God of power and might. Heaven and Earth are full of Your Glory. Hosanna in the highest...'" (see Revelation 4:8-11).

but we will definitely occupy space my friend, for we are not God.

You'll need to explain how not occupying space necessarily makes someone God. Of course, I realize by asking you to do this, there is a good possibility that you are just going to repeat what you previously said; it won't be necessary, because I read it the first time.

So, this is specifically what needs to be explained:
1) How God's existence outside of space and time make Him God.
2) Where the soul is located, and how it moves.

For my part, I say that a person can exist outside of space, and be non-divine for this reason:

P1 After death, the soul continues to exist
P2 The soul is immaterial
C1 Therefore, the soul exists immaterially.

P1 The soul exists immaterially
P2 Immaterial substances cannot exist in space by definition.
C2 Therefore, the soul exists outside of space.

P2 of syllogism 2 can be proved because it is absurd to talk about something that is immaterial (that is, made up of no matter) existing in space (which is defined by the locomotion of matter).

Even angels occupy space.

That's certainly strange, considering they are pure spirit, and the spirit doesn't occupy space (they've tried weighing a body ante and post mortem). If a thing has weight, then it is matter; how much do you estimate the average angel weighs?

Of course, you could say the angel is immaterial, but then you'll have to explain how an immaterial thing takes up space, which is absurd.

So go ahead, pray along with a million other Catholics friends to Jude, maybe he will hear your request, and maybe not.

Well, I suppose that it's good you say that, because that puts Jude on a level playing field with other people; I doubt most of the people who say "I'll be praying for you" ever do...

But don't count on him hearing thousands of prayers directed at him in a matter of seconds and then respond to your one specific request out of the million directed at him. He is not omnipresent nor omniscent.

I've already said that no, he is not omnipresent nor omniscent, but then I never claimed he was. You'll need to explain how existence outside of time necessarily leads to knowledge of everything (it's another leap in reasoning you made).

There are also a number of cases of Saints bi-locating (being in two places at once) while still alive. United with God on a much grander scale who knows what can happen?

 

[judechild]

Oh, now that's no fair. You changed it just when I was posting.

 

[judechild]

Sorry to bust your bubble,

I'm glad you're not yelling anymore... but my bubble is quite fine for now.

Other than resting your voice, I think this is the only addition:

For unless God has assigned Jude the task of following your life from beginning to end, he is with all the other saints in a PLACE called Heaven. Do they pray for the persecuted on earth and justice to come quickly? ABSOLUTELY.

And now we get to the point where, in addition to the philosophical problems given in my post above, I think you sell God short. I certainly am not a creature very close and united to Our Lord, but I've read reliable testimony from stable and intelligent people that gives evidence of bi-location of people who were later canonized, and I see no philosophical grounding to the claim that the soul exists inside physical space.

But still, you acknowledge that these immaterial people can hear the prayers of those here - no matter how limited to make it ("unless God has assigned Jude...). That is a grave admission on your part, because now you will have to either defend an absurd position that immateriality exists in space, or you'll have to say that people who exist outside of space do exist, and they can pray for us and hear our prayers.

 

[DArceri]

Oh, now that's no fair. You changed it just when I was posting.

I guess when the Archangel Michael got held up and was late, he didn't really mean it. ....Since we will be eating and dining with Abraham and the Apostles, maybe you just might want to reexamine your stance on time and space. Unless you think the food will be timeless and spaceless along with our glorified bodies too.

 

[LOCO]

That is your choice.

I, on the other hand, will pray...

"Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen."

.

We say the Lords Prayer at every Mass so it's actually a moot point.

Being the good Catholic that he is, Judechild has that covered when he attends Mass.

 

[judechild]

I guess when the Archangel Michael...

It's good that Your Lordship is here, then; because who is better to help me "re-examine my stance on time and space?" After all, I have all of these philosophical objections that are getting in the way, and need your help to be free of them, so that I can accept your wisdom.

As to the Archangel Michael; what is worse then a war of intelligences? We also know that immaterial beings can manifest themselves physically or - in one unique case - Incarnately. And for eating and dining - by the way, I'm glad you have mastered the present participle - for a being that doesn't exist in time, everything is present. The Wedding Feast of the Lamb is one eternal Liturgy of praise.

 

[DArceri]

I'm glad you're not yelling anymore... but my bubble is quite fine for now.

Other than resting your voice, I think this is the only addition:



And now we get to the point where, in addition to the philosophical problems given in my post above, I think you sell God short. I certainly am not a creature very close and united to Our Lord, but I've read reliable testimony from stable and intelligent people that gives evidence of bi-location of people who were later canonized, and I see no philosophical grounding to the claim that the soul exists inside physical space.

But still, you acknowledge that these immaterial people can hear the prayers of those here - no matter how limited to make it ("unless God has assigned Jude...). That is a grave admission on your part, because now you will have to either defend an absurd position that immateriality exists in space, or you'll have to say that people who exist outside of space do exist, and they can pray for us and hear our prayers.

Again, although immaterial beings, angels are CREATED beings who move to and fro and cannot be in two places at once. This suggests they are trapped in time and space like all of creation. If you chose to spiritualize scripture, the ball is is in your court to prove they are not moving about as SPACIAL spiritual beings. Scripture suggests otherwise.