Why did He give man free will knowing most would reject the sacrifice Jesus made?
I am working on the answers to your questions. You are correct that I had read the post and obviously didn't answer it. I an not sure why, other than I was busy and forgot it. Sorry. I will try to post my answers tomorrow.
God's commands to repent and believe have nothing to do with ability to do so. When the King commands you obey or die. The King doesn't plead with His subjects.
Western civilization knows little about being subject to a king.
To imply that the command to repent necessarily gives freedom of choice is a false conclusion.
The Revelation passages were spoken to churches not to unbelievers. The others were written to Israel, God's elect.
I can show by Scriptures every point you say I can't. I just don't have the time to do so right now.God pleads with His people to repent and turn from their sins because, unlike human kings, God is LOVE and does not not take pleasure in punishing or condemning anyone. That is what the Scriptures actually teach, just as I have revealed to you by Scripture.
You cannot show by Scripture that God forms many to sin, and mysteriously elects some to give faith to, and guarantees their faith to the end. No such Scriptures.
You cannot show that God saves you so you can believe. No such Scripture.
You cannot show by Scripture that you receive the Spirit so you can believe. No such Scripture.
You cannot except what the Scriptures teach, but are intent on holding onto Calvin as your authority, and Calvin's word as the truth. That is the only explanation I can give you for your inability to understand clear language of Scripture. Your mind is seeing Scripture through Calvin's glasses and not what Scripture actually states in context.
Tares do grow with the wheat for sure. Those churches who put their emphasis on man instead of on Christ, His person and work, are not worshipping Christ they are worshipping man.You are right in saying that those Revelation Passages were spoken to Churches and not to unbelievers. And those very Passages state that not all those Christians in the Churches will be victorious to the end and will be lost.
As well, not all the Elect Churches corporately will remain; rather, Christ Jesus will remove them.
So either way you look at it, "the Churches" or "individual Christians" can so sin as to be removed or lost.
You don't see individual Christians addressed in those Passages to the Churches? LOOK again. Lord Jesus is speaking to the Churches (assemblies of Christians) addressing each Church corporately. As well, He is speaking to the people in those Churches showing that those who
are the one's who are saved in those Churches. And Lord Jesus was giving them time to repent.
- did not dirty their garments,
- who overcome,
- who are victorious,
- who repent
Revelation 3:19-22 (NIV)
19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent. 20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me. 21 To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.
Revelation 2:5 (NIV)
5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. 6 But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
7 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.
Revelation 2:16 (NIV)
16 Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. 17 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give that person a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to the one who receives it.
Revelation 2:20-22 (NIV)
20 Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols. 21 I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. 22 So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways.
Revelation 3:3-4 (NIV)
3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you. 4 But thou hast a few names in Sardis that did not defile their garments: and they shall walk with me in white; for they are worthy.
Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by its gates.
As for the other Passage I gave about Israel... Of course the Passage is referring to God's Elect People Israel. Yet, what does the Passage state about God's Elect? Not that they are guaranteed their salvation, but that they must repent or be lost, and do the things they first did. God places the choice on the people to either remain in Him or suffer the punishment.
Again I ask that you point out any place where I said what you accuse me of. Sure you can twist what I have said but you cannot actually show anywhere that I said any such thing.I have no idea what you are talking about. How much clearer do you need it? You say no one doe anything against God's will.... scripture says they do.
Love is not one of God's attributes. It's the definition of who he is. 1 John 4:8God is love is not a definition of God. God is righteous, God is good, God is holy, and many more things. You cannot form a theology from one attribute of God. All of His attributes together make up His character.
Tares do grow with the wheat for sure. Those churches who put their emphasis on man instead of on Christ, His person and work, are not worshipping Christ they are worshipping man.
The Scriptures speak a great deal on man's will but they speak of it negatively.
As far as your quotes from the Revelation are concerned they are to those who claim to believe in the churches but have followed man's theology rather than Christ.
I can show by Scriptures every point you say I can't. I just don't have the time to do so right now.
I have said that I am not a follower of Calvin but you must have missed it.
God is love is not a definition of God. God is righteous, God is good, God is holy, and many more things. You cannot form a theology from one attribute of God. All of His attributes together make up His character.
You have not given any Scriptures that show that God pleads with men. God's terms of peace with the sinner is surrender or die.
I am not the one reading my theology into the Scriptures.
God gives people free will. He gave Adam the will to choose to trust in his word or eat the fruit when he chooses to. If this was not the case there would be no hell and heaven and God would not tell people to believe if they choose to, he would make all of them believe by force. I believe that it is not that God takes specific people and says this I will make or force to believe and these I will not, but rather because of his ability to know the future he knows the end from the beginning those who will use their free will to believe and choose to walk with God, these I believe are the ones who are the elect, otherwise would there be any meaning in judgment?I'm sure this will open up a can of worms, but here goes. I am a very new believer (it hasn't been a week) so I know very little. But I have been reading about Calvinism for years, out of curiosity and, well, because it terrifies me.
I understand (and feel deeply) that God is sovereign. I even understand how some people can believe that free will takes away from God's sovereignty. What I don't understand is why both can't be true-why can't God be sovereign AND allow free will? Now, I get that greater minds than mine have debated this, so I am trying to get to the place where I am okay with not having to know the answer to every question. This is hard.
But here's the thing-I can't quit crying. I get that God can do anything he wants, but Calvinism makes me so sad. I went to see my seven-year-old niece last night and all I could think about was if she were to ask me if God loves her, what could I say? Maybe? We'll have to wait and see? He might actually hate you and take delight in your everlasting punishment?
My whole life the one constant was "God loves you" (I grew up in a non-denominational Arminian church). Calvinism turns that on it's head. To me, it turns John 3:16 into "For God so loved the ELECT that he gave his only begotten Son..."
But here's the rub-my belief FEELS like a gift. If someone had told me two weeks ago I would be a Christian, let alone a bible-believing Christian, I would have thought they were insane (I had contemplated "becoming" a liberal Christian, thinking I could pick and choose what I would believe, if you can imagine, but never an orthodox Christian).
So, I don't know what to think.
Also, I'm open to private messages if people don't want to post on the thread.
Fortunately, Calvinism isn't the only school of thought in orthodox Christian circles (despite what some Calvinists will tell you). It gets some things right, but it fails at places. Personally, I acknowledge God's love for the world (not just the elect) in John 3:16 along with its open invitation to everyone, and also that faith is a gift, per John 6:44 and Ephesians 2:8. I'm not sure what "ism" is the right one to put on my beliefs about this, but cookie-cutter molds don't suit me very much anyway. This doesn't make me liberal - I accept and take on the hard teachings of the New Testament as well as the easy ones. But I've had my faith for many years now, and I hope it's still growing.I'm sure this will open up a can of worms, but here goes. I am a very new believer (it hasn't been a week) so I know very little. But I have been reading about Calvinism for years, out of curiosity and, well, because it terrifies me.
I understand (and feel deeply) that God is sovereign. I even understand how some people can believe that free will takes away from God's sovereignty. What I don't understand is why both can't be true-why can't God be sovereign AND allow free will? Now, I get that greater minds than mine have debated this, so I am trying to get to the place where I am okay with not having to know the answer to every question. This is hard.
But here's the thing-I can't quit crying. I get that God can do anything he wants, but Calvinism makes me so sad. I went to see my seven-year-old niece last night and all I could think about was if she were to ask me if God loves her, what could I say? Maybe? We'll have to wait and see? He might actually hate you and take delight in your everlasting punishment?
My whole life the one constant was "God loves you" (I grew up in a non-denominational Arminian church). Calvinism turns that on it's head. To me, it turns John 3:16 into "For God so loved the ELECT that he gave his only begotten Son..."
But here's the rub-my belief FEELS like a gift. If someone had told me two weeks ago I would be a Christian, let alone a bible-believing Christian, I would have thought they were insane (I had contemplated "becoming" a liberal Christian, thinking I could pick and choose what I would believe, if you can imagine, but never an orthodox Christian).
So, I don't know what to think.
Also, I'm open to private messages if people don't want to post on the thread.
I'm sure this will open up a can of worms, but here goes. I am a very new believer (it hasn't been a week) so I know very little. But I have been reading about Calvinism for years, out of curiosity and, well, because it terrifies me.
I understand (and feel deeply) that God is sovereign. I even understand how some people can believe that free will takes away from God's sovereignty. What I don't understand is why both can't be true-why can't God be sovereign AND allow free will? Now, I get that greater minds than mine have debated this, so I am trying to get to the place where I am okay with not having to know the answer to every question. This is hard.
But here's the thing-I can't quit crying. I get that God can do anything he wants, but Calvinism makes me so sad. I went to see my seven-year-old niece last night and all I could think about was if she were to ask me if God loves her, what could I say? Maybe? We'll have to wait and see? He might actually hate you and take delight in your everlasting punishment?
My whole life the one constant was "God loves you" (I grew up in a non-denominational Arminian church). Calvinism turns that on it's head. To me, it turns John 3:16 into "For God so loved the ELECT that he gave his only begotten Son..."
But here's the rub-my belief FEELS like a gift. If someone had told me two weeks ago I would be a Christian, let alone a bible-believing Christian, I would have thought they were insane (I had contemplated "becoming" a liberal Christian, thinking I could pick and choose what I would believe, if you can imagine, but never an orthodox Christian).
So, I don't know what to think.
Also, I'm open to private messages if people don't want to post on the thread.
I'm sure this will open up a can of worms, but here goes. I am a very new believer (it hasn't been a week) so I know very little. But I have been reading about Calvinism for years, out of curiosity and, well, because it terrifies me.
I understand (and feel deeply) that God is sovereign. I even understand how some people can believe that free will takes away from God's sovereignty. What I don't understand is why both can't be true-why can't God be sovereign AND allow free will? Now, I get that greater minds than mine have debated this, so I am trying to get to the place where I am okay with not having to know the answer to every question. This is hard.
But here's the thing-I can't quit crying. I get that God can do anything he wants, but Calvinism makes me so sad. I went to see my seven-year-old niece last night and all I could think about was if she were to ask me if God loves her, what could I say? Maybe? We'll have to wait and see? He might actually hate you and take delight in your everlasting punishment?
My whole life the one constant was "God loves you" (I grew up in a non-denominational Arminian church). Calvinism turns that on it's head. To me, it turns John 3:16 into "For God so loved the ELECT that he gave his only begotten Son..."
But here's the rub-my belief FEELS like a gift. If someone had told me two weeks ago I would be a Christian, let alone a bible-believing Christian, I would have thought they were insane (I had contemplated "becoming" a liberal Christian, thinking I could pick and choose what I would believe, if you can imagine, but never an orthodox Christian).
So, I don't know what to think.
Also, I'm open to private messages if people don't want to post on the thread.
Ah, thank you. I know very little about Lutheranism. I will have to do some research.I feel like I would be remiss not to mention that one doesn't have to treat this issue as a dichotomy between Calvinism and Arminianism (or something in between). After all, Lutheranism exists.
-CryptoLutheran
Hi.. I know this must be confusing for you and I have great sympathy.
I'm going to discuss feelings, because they are important.
I am a former Muslim who came to Christ...
Floundering in the darkness God sent me a light, in the form of a Christian man who did in fact know Christianity and Islam well. He was also a Christian of a type I never met before - or simply never recognised. I must admit I was intrigued by the Christ I saw in him - and I recognised Christ in him before he ever said he was a follower of Christ.
Here was a person who had a presence. He seemed able and willing to overturn the money tables in the Temple, yet simultaneously humble, loving, kind, caring, and just knew...
So I asked questions I'd been wanting, and waiting, to ask someone of knowledge. Someone who knew Christ because certain things made no logical sense in Islam, and no one in Islam could answer my confusion.
Who is this Christ the Messiah and what was He for? That was my burning question, the one without logical answer because let's face it, Islam has no real logical answer. Why would God create a Messiah, a Savior, if all He would ever do of any import was to tell people they shouldn't follow Him.
So I asked, we talked, we debated, we discussed, I got angry, we talked, we debated some more, and we discussed some more. This went on for a long time, and I finally understood it, I understood all but one important thing so I shelved it for a while, too overwhelming.
I married the man, life went on - but a blessed life of which I could only dream of - but I couldn't become Christian (although now no longer Muslim either..) I needed one last piece of the puzzle.
One night, perhaps two years on, I had a dream and in that dream the Angel of God came to me and explained the last piece I needed, in a manner I could understand - and I was saved before I woke, and confirmed it while awake as I was unsure my saying and doing in a dream was concrete enough. So - I was saved.
And I saw all the pieces of my life in the Hand of this Sovereign God, and I recognised that each and every moment leads up to this one moment in time when all meaning changed, the moment of my Salvation.
And I had a great fear of this God who could lead me here through my own choices with His Hand upon them all..Leading me blessedly to this moment. I saw every decision I made pointing me to the moment of my Salvation, bringing me into the fold like a stray sheep..
And I had fear so great I shook, and I cried, and I fell to my knees.
But that fear gave way to love in the blink of an eye, the perfect Love of our Creator, in the Love He has for mankind..
In that moment everything changed. I saw and felt all I imagine God sees and feels. And I felt a deep deep love for the lost, (Muslim, Jew, etc) a concern and love that was unimaginable in its depths.
And I loved them all too.. (ha! a first for me!) and I saw all people in such a different light than I had ever seen humanity before.. and I had new brothers and sisters too, and I loved them just as much..
And this, I believe, is how God feels for people. He desires to welcome the lost into his fold, to gather His stray sheep.
Is this God a monster? Never!
I can't ever say I know the mind of God..I can't say anything other than He loves, and it's a pure and true love deeper than any ocean.
It's not my place to attempt to dissect this God as if I am above Him, it is my place only to love His Creation, lost or saved, as if they were all my own brother or sister, and desire for them what I want for myself.
God is the God, not me.. it is Him who knows all things, not me. He sits with arms wide open in love as a Father, as the good Shepard, and as my King.
That's all I need to know.. that's all is my place to know. And I'm Calvinist.
God knows all things, we are to believe, and follow, Him.
so tell the little children, tell the lost, that they are indeed loved by this God, and He desires nothing but the best for them... and gave All with them in Mind, in Love. They have only to come to Him, Hes waiting..
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