Struggles with Calvinism

Tra Phull said:

If the teaching -the CHOOSING I referred to, is in Gethsene, it may not include Judas, although elsewhere Jesus said " Have I not chosen you 12, and one of you is a devil?'"

I agree the context is important, I was not originally thinking of 3 1/2 chapters of John, of course everything is in some way "for us" as well as who it was addressed to - but who it was addressed to is important.

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The Bible is not written to unbelievers. It is written to show us the person and work of Christ. It is written to believers so that they can see the hand of God in all things in order to show us Christ.

Jonaitis said:

I first visited them with hatred for them in my heart, what a vile doctrine that God would ever predestine anyone to hell! Oh, but when I begin to hear the words of my Savior speak to me the very same things straight from his word, my heart began to melt and see how much I am loved!

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How about the feelings of those predestined who's hearts will literally be "melting" in Hell through no more fault of there own than the faulty saved have?? I wonder how "loved" they'll feel? Would you have given up your "hatred" so quickly if you were one of them? No mention of them at all in your post...where's the compassion, or is it only about those predestined to heaven, and those predestined to hell be damned?

Tell me, where did Jesus convince you that was ok?

Jonaitis said:

If you want to continue relying on your own good works, or "keeping the faith," or whatever...to stay a Christian, go ahead.

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Who relies wholly on their good works in order to get to heaven as you state they do? And that's not a rhetorical question.

Jonaitis said:

If you want to wake up each morning making sure you are still in the faith, go ahead.

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Thank you, I will. I'll constantly keep an eye on myself when I wake in the morning, as well as the rest of my life. If you want to let yourself go and not be obedient to God..."then go ahead"

Jonaitis said:

My God isn't fickle. He doesn't save a person and then turn his back on them.

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Who makes this stuff up. If we are disobedient after we are saved, and God turns his back on us, that is considered "fickle" in your world??

Jonaitis said:

He doesn't adopt a son and then disown him as if they were a stranger.

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Will you show me scripture to back that up please?

Where does the bible state under no circumstances will God disown us? He will blot names from the book of life and send people who were saved prior to that to Hell, so yeah, I think that qualifies as a disownment.

Jonaitis said:

He doesn't purchase and then refunds.

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?? Who writes that stuff? Refund what? I know that was supposed to sound Almighty wise, and the Calvinists must love it, but it doesn't, not in the least.

Jonaitis said:

He who began a good work will finish it.

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If we let him. Tell you what, let's go down to the brothel, pick up a few women, and slip in the back room where they're passing the crack pipe and doing shooters, and do that often as long as we live with no repentance and then see if he will "finish his good work in us, or if he just finishes us...period?

Jonaitis said:

He is a perfect Savior, not a half-way one.

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And who is accusing him of anything less? I think you are trying the old, if if we are obedient to God, we must not think Christ is capable on his own, so we should feel guilty for being obedient.

IOW, don't stop sinning or else

I know who wrote that one...it's just too twisted to be anyone other than the Master Of Confusion.

Emsmom1 said:

I'm sure this will open up a can of worms, but here goes. I am a very new believer (it hasn't been a week) so I know very little. But I have been reading about Calvinism for years, out of curiosity and, well, because it terrifies me.
I understand (and feel deeply) that God is sovereign. I even understand how some people can believe that free will takes away from God's sovereignty. What I don't understand is why both can't be true-why can't God be sovereign AND allow free will? Now, I get that greater minds than mine have debated this, so I am trying to get to the place where I am okay with not having to know the answer to every question. This is hard.
But here's the thing-I can't quit crying. I get that God can do anything he wants, but Calvinism makes me so sad. I went to see my seven-year-old niece last night and all I could think about was if she were to ask me if God loves her, what could I say? Maybe? We'll have to wait and see? He might actually hate you and take delight in your everlasting punishment?
My whole life the one constant was "God loves you" (I grew up in a non-denominational Arminian church). Calvinism turns that on it's head. To me, it turns John 3:16 into "For God so loved the ELECT that he gave his only begotten Son..."
But here's the rub-my belief FEELS like a gift. If someone had told me two weeks ago I would be a Christian, let alone a bible-believing Christian, I would have thought they were insane (I had contemplated "becoming" a liberal Christian, thinking I could pick and choose what I would believe, if you can imagine, but never an orthodox Christian).
So, I don't know what to think.
Also, I'm open to private messages if people don't want to post on the thread.

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In a manner of speaking you are right. God is sovereign and allows free will --DEPENDING on what you mean by free will. In fact, as I mean the term "free will" I insist God not only allows it --he CAUSES it.

BryanJohnMaloney said:

Calvinism: God created most people specifically in order to make them suffer in agony forever.

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What difference does it make how many of them it is? If your assessment is valid, even one is too many.

The problem with free will is that it starts with man and works up to God.

The Scriptures start with God and works down to man.

Man is the small dust of the balance. Not worth blowing off. We make no difference with God. God doesn't need us. He is content in Himself.

His student said:

I'm a little old fashioned I guess.

But I take "all things" to mean exactly that - NO exceptions.

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So how do you interpret the verses?

Tra Phull said:

"distorted"
"complete misunderstanding of Calvinism"

"misrepresenting Calvinism"

Know that what I know of Calvinism is what I read by Calvin, by Calvinist authors, and by Calvinists on message boards for 20 years.

At some p.o.in t, a person is going to say to themselves "it seems to me Calvinism is saying THIS"

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Not really. You come first with a presumption that you filter all you read about Calvinsts and Calvinism. You are wrong!

You obviously build straw men that you can easily tear down.

First learn what Calvinism teaches before you make your claim.

Deny any special significance to the Twelve

That some scholars would do that illustrates eisogesis

Tra Phull said:

This is the work of God - that you believe in Him that He hath sent.

Man is not literally an empty glass.

We are DOING something when we believe.

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How do you come to that point?

I am wrong
I come with presumptions
I obviously build straw men
I don't know what Calvinism teaches

Says you.

Let your arrogance and hubris be seen by all.

Let it be the banner of Calvinism, known and read by all.

Tra Phull said:

When Jesus said "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you" - He was speaking to His disciples, right? The 12, including Judas Iscariot. Isn't this true? Would anyone agree that to make that verse apply to Soteriology, and to future Christians in general, is unfounded?

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I don't disagree with you on this verse. But the preponderance of Scriptures testifies to the truth.

His student said:

Let me get this straight. According to the scriptures:

He upholds all things by the Word of His power and works all things after the council of His will.

His Word's activity is omnipresent and fills the heavens and the earth.

In His Word all things live and move and have their being.

All things were created by His Word, for his Word, and in His Word all things exist.

But according to you there are some things that do not come to pass in His Word.

What anti-Calvinist "double speak".

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Where do you see that in the passage from Isaiah?

There is a preponderance of scriptures WARNING us, make your calling and election sure, "lest I be a castaway", "ye are fallen from grace"

All these warnings, meaningless if one cannot fall from grace.

twin1954 said:

The answer to the first question is all that think that they chose Christ apart from a work of the Spirit.

Calvinsts do not believe that we don't choose Christ. We do actually. We chose Christ because we see and know no other choice.

The Scriptures actually speak of man's unwillingness much more than God's drawing. The Lord Jesus said to some people, "Ye will not come to me that you might have life." John 5:40.

To the second question, no one claims it but the logical conclusion and obvious fact is that all those who think that God does not save unless they give Him permission by their choice save themselves.

There are no two ways about it. If God doesn't save unless you allow Him by your choice then we save ourselves by our choice. "I did something that most of the world didn't. I saved myself when I exercised my free will and chose Christ and let Him save me." That is what free will does. It gives one freedom to boast.

Granted that there are many who never would imagine such. But it is the logical conclusion to their theology. If God doesn't save until the sinner chooses then it is clear that the sinner saves himself because he did something that others do not.

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There's no logic there.

Hebrews 6:4-6

Just a reminder from those who were there. These doctrines aren't new. The early Christians fought them too.

Chapter 37. — Men are possessed of free will, and endowed with the faculty of making a choice. It is not true, therefore, that some are by nature good, and others bad.
1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, “But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.” “But glory and honour,” he says, “to every one that doeth good.” God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.

2. But if some had been made by nature bad, and others good, these latter would not be deserving of praise for being good, for such were they created; nor would the former be reprehensible, for thus they were made [originally]. But since all men are of the same nature, able both to hold fast and to do what is good; and, on the other hand, having also the power to cast it from them and not to do it, — some do justly receive praise even among men who are under the control of good laws (and much more from God), and obtain deserved testimony of their choice of good in general, and of persevering therein; but the others are blamed, and receive a just condemnation, because of their rejection of what is fair and good. And therefore the prophets used to exhort men to what was good, to act justly and to work righteousness, as I have so largely demonstrated, because it is in our power so to do, and because by excessive negligence we might become forgetful, and thus stand in need of that good counsel which the good God has given us to know by means of the prophets.

3. For this reason the Lord also said, “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good deeds, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.” And, “Take heed to yourselves, lest perchance your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and worldly cares.” And, “Let your loins be girded about, and your lamps burning, and ye like unto men that wait for their Lord, when He returns from the wedding, that when He cometh and knocketh, they may open to Him. Blessed is that servant whom his Lord, when He cometh, shall find so doing.” And again, “The servant who knows his Lord’s will, and does it not, shall be beaten with many stripes.” And, “Why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” And again, “But if the servant say in his heart, The Lord delayeth, and begin to beat his fellow-servants, and to eat, and drink, and to be drunken, his Lord will come in a day on which he does not expect Him, and shall cut him in sunder, and appoint his portion with the hypocrites.” All such passages demonstrate the independent will of man, and at the same time the counsel which God conveys to him, by which He exhorts us to submit ourselves to Him, and seeks to turn us away from [the sin of] unbelief against Him, without, however, in any way coercing us.

4. No doubt, if any one is unwilling to follow the Gospel itself, it is in his power [to reject it], but it is not expedient. For it is in man’s power to disobey God, and to forfeit what is good; but [such conduct] brings no small amount of injury and mischief. And on this account Paul says, “All things are lawful to me, but all things are not expedient;” referring both to the liberty of man, in which respect “all things are lawful,” God exercising no compulsion in regard to him; and [by the expression] “not expedient” pointing out that we “should not use our liberty as a cloak of maliciousness,” for this is not expedient. And again he says, “Speak ye every man truth with his neighbour.” And, “Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor scurrility, which are not convenient, but rather giving of thanks.” And, “For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord; walk honestly as children of the light, not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in anger and jealousy. And such were some of you; but ye have been washed, but ye have been sanctified in the name of our Lord.” If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give us counsel to do some things, and to abstain from others? But because man is possessed of free will from the beginning, and God is possessed of free will, in whose likeness man was created, advice is always given to him to keep fast the good, which thing is done by means of obedience to God.

5. And not merely in works, but also in faith, has God preserved the will of man free and under his own control, saying, “According to thy faith be it unto thee;” thus showing that there is a faith specially belonging to man, since he has an opinion specially his own. And again, “All things are possible to him that believeth;” and, “Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee.” Now all such expressions demonstrate that man is in his own power with respect to faith. And for this reason, “he that believeth in Him has eternal life while he who believeth not the Son hath not eternal life, but the wrath of God shall remain upon him.” In the same manner therefore the Lord, both showing His own goodness, and indicating that man is in his own free will and his own power, said to Jerusalem, “How often have I wished to gather thy children together, as a hen [gathereth] her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Wherefore your house shall be left unto you desolate.”

6. Those, again, who maintain the opposite to these [conclusions], do themselves present the Lord as destitute of power, as if, forsooth, He were unable to accomplish what He willed; or, on the other hand, as being ignorant that they were by nature “material,” as these men express it, and such as cannot receive His immortality. “But He should not,” say they, “have created angels of such a nature that they were capable of transgression, nor men who immediately proved ungrateful towards Him; for they were made rational beings, endowed with the power of examining and judging, and were not [formed] as things irrational or of a [merely] animal nature, which can do nothing of their own will, but are drawn by necessity and compulsion to what is good, in which things there is one mind and one usage, working mechanically in one groove (inflexibiles et sine judicio), who are incapable of being anything else except just what they had been created.” But upon this supposition, neither would what is good be grateful to them, nor communion with God be precious, nor would the good be very much to be sought after, which would present itself without their own proper endeavour, care, or study, but would be implanted of its own accord and without their concern. Thus it would come to pass, that their being good would be of no consequence, because they were so by nature rather than by will, and are possessors of good spontaneously, not by choice; and for this reason they would not understand this fact, that good is a comely thing, nor would they take pleasure in it. For how can those who are ignorant of good enjoy it? Or what credit is it to those who have not aimed at it? And what crown is it to those who have not followed in pursuit of it, like those victorious in the contest?

7. On this account, too, did the Lord assert that the kingdom of heaven was the portion of “the violent;” and He says, “The violent take it by force;” that is, those who by strength and earnest striving are on the watch to snatch it away on the moment. On this account also Paul the Apostle says to the Corinthians, “Know ye not, that they who run in a racecourse, do all indeed run, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. Every one also who engages in the contest is temperate in all things: now these men [do it] that they may obtain a corruptible crown, but we an incorruptible. But I so run, not as uncertainty; I fight, not as one beating the air; but I make my body livid, and bring it into subjection, lest by any means, when preaching to others, I may myself be rendered a castaway.” This able wrestler, therefore, exhorts us to the struggle for immortality, that we may be crowned, and may deem the crown precious, namely, that which is acquired by our struggle, but which does not encircle us of its own accord (sed non ultro coalitam). And the harder we strive, so much is it the more valuable; while so much the more valuable it is, so much the more should we esteem it. And indeed those things are not esteemed so highly which come spontaneously, as those which are reached by much anxious care. Since, then, this power has been conferred upon us, both the Lord has taught and the apostle has enjoined us the more to love God, that we may reach this [prize] for ourselves by striving after it. For otherwise, no doubt, this our good would be [virtually] irrational, because not the result of trial. Moreover, the faculty of seeing would not appear to be so desirable, unless we had known what a loss it were to be devoid of sight; and health, too, is rendered all the more estimable by an acquaintance with disease; light, also, by contrasting it with darkness; and life with death. Just in the same way is the heavenly kingdom honourable to those who have known the earthly one. But in proportion as it is more honourable, so much the more do we prize it; and if we have prized it more, we shall be the more glorious in the presence of God. The Lord has therefore endured all these things on our behalf, in order that we, having been instructed by means of them all, may be in all respects circumspect for the time to come, and that, having been rationally taught to love God, we may continue in His perfect love: for God has displayed long-suffering in the case of man’s apostasy; while man has been instructed by means of it, as also the prophet says, “Thine own apostasy shall heal thee;” God thus determining all things beforehand for the bringing of man to perfection, for his edification, and for the revelation of His dispensations, that goodness may both be made apparent, and righteousness perfected, and that the Church may be fashioned after the image of His Son, and that man may finally be brought to maturity at some future time, becoming ripe through such privileges to see and comprehend God.[23]


Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.

Wild Olive branches are warned that they may be broken off like natural branches were

Tra Phull said:

I am wrong
I come with presumptions

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Don't you? You hold to free will theology don't you? Free will is what Adam chose. That is why he fell. You obviously read the Scriptures as though they are all about you. They are not. You obviously read man into the equation of God's salvation. Salvation in the Gospel is never presented as an offer but as a gift.

I obviously build straw men

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Since you have no other argument you must. If you confronted Calvinism honestly you would have no argument ,

I don't know what Calvinism teaches

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Isn't it obvious? You make claims about us with no logical conclusion nor an honest evaluation. You build straw men in order to tear them down and present us in the darkest light possible. I could do the same easily but I won't. The Arminian or Pelagion stance falls under the scrutiny of Scriptures.

Says you.

Let your arrogance and hubris be seen by all.

Let it be the banner of Calvinism, known and read by all.

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If I am truly arrogant may the Lord correct me. I am no intellectual nor an accomplished theologian. I am just a country bumpkin from West Virginia. I am no intellectual.

Your claim of arrogance and hubris needs to be proven. You assume more than is warranted. It seems that arrogance is not just applicable to me.

Colossians 1:21-23

2 Peter 2:20-22