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How do you disprove any of this with scripture?
Do you mean the origin is not from heaven. Not from the Father. That would fit here so far, this sub-topic part of this thread.The idea of "decrees" comes over to us from the ages of kings and has found it's way into theology of most groups and not just the Calvinists.
The Calvinist ideas that are different from the rest of Christianity: those are just some ideas about some scriptures, but they seem to directly contradict plenty of other scriptures, so even those in reformed churches should not overly put too much faith in those particular Calvinist theories see.I'm sure this will open up a can of worms, but here goes. I am a very new believer (it hasn't been a week) so I know very little. But I have been reading about Calvinism for years, out of curiosity and, well, because it terrifies me.
I understand (and feel deeply) that God is sovereign. I even understand how some people can believe that free will takes away from God's sovereignty. What I don't understand is why both can't be true-why can't God be sovereign AND allow free will? Now, I get that greater minds than mine have debated this, so I am trying to get to the place where I am okay with not having to know the answer to every question. This is hard.
But here's the thing-I can't quit crying. I get that God can do anything he wants, but Calvinism makes me so sad. I went to see my seven-year-old niece last night and all I could think about was if she were to ask me if God loves her, what could I say? Maybe? We'll have to wait and see? He might actually hate you and take delight in your everlasting punishment?
My whole life the one constant was "God loves you" (I grew up in a non-denominational Arminian church). Calvinism turns that on it's head. To me, it turns John 3:16 into "For God so loved the ELECT that he gave his only begotten Son..."
But here's the rub-my belief FEELS like a gift. If someone had told me two weeks ago I would be a Christian, let alone a bible-believing Christian, I would have thought they were insane (I had contemplated "becoming" a liberal Christian, thinking I could pick and choose what I would believe, if you can imagine, but never an orthodox Christian).
So, I don't know what to think.
Also, I'm open to private messages if people don't want to post on the thread.
Since I am not a follower of John Calvin I don't really care what he taught. Though I do have his Institutes and his commentaries and read them sometimes.Yet, as Calvinism teaches. . . According to God's Purpose, the Sovereign God formed man to be ungodly so he could be glorified by condemning them to eternal torment. Condemning those He formed to be condemned pleases the Calvin God.
John Calvin
John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, vol. 2 (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1993 reprint), 206
“Since the arrangement of all things is in the hand of God, since to him belongs the disposal of life and death, he arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.”
John Calvin
John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, vol. 2 (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1993 reprint), 231.
“By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which He determined with Himself whatever He wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of those ends, we say that he has been predestined to life or death.”
John Calvin
John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, vol. 2 (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1993 reprint), 231.
“Those therefore whom God passes by He reprobates, and that for no other cause than he is pleased to exclude them….”
John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, vol. 2 (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1993 reprint), 231.
“If we cannot assign any reason for [God] bestowing mercy on his people, but just that it so pleases him, neither can we have any reason for his reprobating others but his will. When God is said to visit in mercy or harden whom he will, men are reminded that they are not to seek for any cause beyond his will.”
Since I am not a follower of John Calvin I don't really care what he taught. Though I do have his Institutes and his commentaries and read them sometimes.
But your premise is incorrect. God created Adam very good. He didn't cause Adam to sin but he did. All future generations from Adam came from natural generation not by creation. God does not create or form men in order to damn them. We are damed in Adam and by our own rebellion.
Of course not.Do you mean the origin is not from heaven. Not from the Father. That would fit here so far, this sub-topic part of this thread.
I know nothing about Calvinism, but it seems to me your question/struggle is about predestination? Who is chosen and what that means is quite a mystery. Maybe some are chosen first. I started a year long Bible study many years ago with that very question in mind, and came away, with at least part of the answer, from reading about Moses. I came away thinking that God chose people who's hearts are toward him, as Moses heart was. And Moses was chosen for a special purpose; to lead. So maybe chosen has a more specific definition than we understand. The Israelites were chosen, but God was ready to do away with them a couple of times because they were stiff-necked and bent toward evil. But Moses interceded for the people, as Christ did for us, although some of them were still destroyed.I'm sure this will open up a can of worms, but here goes. I am a very new believer (it hasn't been a week) so I know very little. But I have been reading about Calvinism for years, out of curiosity and, well, because it terrifies me.
I understand (and feel deeply) that God is sovereign. I even understand how some people can believe that free will takes away from God's sovereignty. What I don't understand is why both can't be true-why can't God be sovereign AND allow free will? Now, I get that greater minds than mine have debated this, so I am trying to get to the place where I am okay with not having to know the answer to every question. This is hard.
But here's the thing-I can't quit crying. I get that God can do anything he wants, but Calvinism makes me so sad. I went to see my seven-year-old niece last night and all I could think about was if she were to ask me if God loves her, what could I say? Maybe? We'll have to wait and see? He might actually hate you and take delight in your everlasting punishment?
My whole life the one constant was "God loves you" (I grew up in a non-denominational Arminian church). Calvinism turns that on it's head. To me, it turns John 3:16 into "For God so loved the ELECT that he gave his only begotten Son..."
But here's the rub-my belief FEELS like a gift. If someone had told me two weeks ago I would be a Christian, let alone a bible-believing Christian, I would have thought they were insane (I had contemplated "becoming" a liberal Christian, thinking I could pick and choose what I would believe, if you can imagine, but never an orthodox Christian).
So, I don't know what to think.
Also, I'm open to private messages if people don't want to post on the thread.
I am trying to get to the place where I am okay with not having to know the answer to every question. This is hard.
I went to see my seven-year-old niece last night and all I could think about was if she were to ask me if God loves her, what could I say? Maybe? We'll have to wait and see?
He might actually hate you and take delight in your everlasting punishment?
But here's the rub-my belief FEELS like a gift. If someone had told me two weeks ago I would be a Christian, let alone a bible-believing Christian, I would have thought they were insane
(I had contemplated "becoming" a liberal Christian, thinking I could pick and choose what I would believe, if you can imagine, but never an orthodox Christian).
first understand that what I say is not meant to change your beliefs or anyone elses. I am merely answering your questions from my point of view. I consider myself Reformed and I don't know if there is a difference between that and Calvinism and don't care. I was a free will Christian for the first twenty years post salvation. I came to Reformed 20 years ago by reading reputable authors in the subject and comparing what they said with scripture. I have never been to a Calvinist church and the only other Reformed person I actually know is my brother. I understand from reading this thread that some people have had bad experiences in Calvinist churches and even here I have seen professes Calvinists spout things are not accurate. So, please don't lump us all together.Why can't they fall away, exactly. Show me biblical proof of that?
How can you tell if they were never saved? What do you look for, I mean where is your biblical proof?
And you do realize we aren't so much interested in what "reformed teaches" as we are what the bible says on the matters. So please explain how you knew someone who fell away, was never saved to begin with. I mean beyond assuming it because Calvinism told you to assume it...where does the bible verify it?
We "place" ourselves in Christ when we choose to accept him. What you are claiming is we were forced/placed into Christ when we can't possibly be in Christs if we don't choose to willingly. As in, I "placed" this class of water on the table, and the water nor the glass had anything to do with getting there, or, in so many words, I forced it to be where it now is..
Where does the bible verify that we are "placed" in Christ and we do not place ourselves in him willingly by doing as he expects of us, as in taking the action that is, in turn, actual "faith"?
You aren't describing "faith" there, but "ability" to have it, two separate things.
Question is why is it really distorted? It's not the fault of Gods word, and honestly from what I just saw, it appears to be getting distorted right here. Again, faith is not an ability, an ability is ability and faith is faith.
Jesus is able to "make" us do anything he likes but he simply doesn't work that way. Please show me the scripture to which you refer there, and lets see what it says?
side note 1), it's best to quote the scriptures you refer to, if for no other reason it can save the time of the other party asking for the quote and you having to repose.
2) I hate to assume here but after seeing these things play out so many times in the past, and also to save a little time, please answer all the questions posted in this or any post for that matter, so we can know you are able to back up what you claim. If you cannot/will not do that, the inaction will speak for itself..
Look forward to your reply.
I don't read long posts over a paragraph or two. But I know from your poston what you are getting at. So I reply;
But you read volumes about Calvin?
Most Reformed or Calvinist assemblies state the doctrine of decrees very clearly.
Unfortunately the tendency of Calvinists to stretch logic to an uncalled for degree (as with limited atonement and unconditional election for instance) - leads non Calvinists to feel that they need to take a stand against all thing Calvinist. Which, of course is a silly thing to do. Many different groups have things that are correct and things that are wrong.
The idea of "decrees" comes over to us from the ages of kings and has found it's way into the published theology of most groups and not just the Calvinists.
The decree of a sovereign king was the sending forth of His word to accomplish what He wanted accomplished.
That's exactly what we see God doing in the Isaiah passage I quoted.
“For just as rain and snow fall from heaven and do not return without watering the earth, making it bud and sprout, and providing seed to sow and food to eat, so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.” Isaiah 55:10-11
The reformers such as the before mentioned Westminster Assembly felt that the decrees of Kings are exactly that kind of thing.
In addition - the Word of God tells us in no uncertain terms that that "word" or "decree" in constantly involved in everything that happens including our very being.
That being the case - they put that concept right out front in their statement on decrees.
But obviously decreeing "all things" leaves God open to the charge that He also is the author of sin. To counteract that charge being hurled at God they made sure that it was clear that He was not the author of sin and that He did not force people to sin - even though He decreed that their chosen sin come to pass.
Some here have called that Calvinist "double speak". But in fact it is simply presenting both sides of the issues involved - from the sovereign God side to the free will man side.
Some here want to just deal with the one side of the teaching from the Word of God. But neither the writers of the Westminster Confession nor I feel that we have that luxury. We must present the full council of God when formulating a doctrinal statement even if it means suffering the slings and arrows of people who haven't thought the issues through.
When we do so we are charged with using "double speak", "logical contradictions" and the like. The use of false straw man arguments also abound as we have seen here in this thread.
But I'm still sure that the scriptures clearly teach exactly what the Westminster Confession teaches in the section dealing with God’s decrees. They said it quite well and it has stood the test of time for close to 4 centuries.
“God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.”
That's the clear teaching of the Word of God.
Calvinism is a broad umbrella. It covers a multitude of beliefs. I identify as a Calvist here because it is close to what I see in the Scriptures.Exactly. What I quoted about what Calvinism teaches does not mean that is what I believe.
God surely created Adam very good. Even so, God - who knows the beginning from the end, and causes all things to occur just as He planned - formed Adam with a disposition that would sin just as he did. If that were not the case, then God's plans would have been thwarted by His creation.
Only these 3 views of salvation are possible. Again stated simply. 1) God alone saves people. 2)people save themselves with God's help. or 3) people save themselves without God's help. Only one is true. The other two present a false gospel and a false Christ.
The parable of the sower may have some bearing, although it's not a complete answer. In the parable God sows on a variety of soils. His word goes to everyone. Where it falls on good soil it prospers. On bad soil it doesn't. The parable doesn't actually say how the good and bad soil got to be that way, which is why it's not direct support or opposition to Calvinism. But still, the overall impression is that people are in some sense passive. God calls them, and they respond according to their nature. But we're not told why those particular people are good soil, and others aren't.I agree that the Isaiah passage does not show that God has ordained everything that comes to pass.
I also don't see the parable of the Sower having anything to do with this myth of "they were never saved to begin with".
For the life of me, I don't see how one comes up with these notions.
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