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Princessdi · Aug 18, 2011

I think we can expand upon this question by taking it further than slavery. God has granted man free will, meaning He, Himself, gave up a portion of His control. He chose to allow man to choose a relationship with Him. He chose to allow man the choice of obedience. He knew that if man made the wrong decision, which he[mankind] did, then many things would happen that he never meant for man. Slavery being one of those things, as all are equal in His sight. God gave man[mankind] dominion and responbility over the earth, animals, etc. not control over each other. Salvery, no matter how you define, is a result of sin, and man's subsequent desire to control and dominate those of his own kind.

k4c · Aug 18, 2011

Princessdi said:
I think we can expand upon this question by taking it further than slavery. God has granted man free will, meaning He, Himself, gave up a portion of His control. He chose to allow man to choose a relationship with Him. He chose to allow man the choice of obedience. He knew that if man made the wrong decision, which he[mankind] did, then many things would happen that he never meant for man. Slavery being one of those things, as all are equal in His sight. God gave man[mankind] dominion and responbility over the earth, animals, etc. not control over each other. Salvery, no matter how you define, is a result of sin, and man's subsequent desire to control and dominate those of his own kind.

Good points...

We also have to understand that slavery is seen in two different lights. One light is seen as servanthood where the slave or servant is happy to be in his position. He loves his master and desires to stay right where he is.

Exodus 21:2-5 "If you buy a Hebrew slave, he may serve for no more than six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave, he shall leave single. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife must be freed with him. "If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave and they had sons or daughters, then only the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I don't want to go free.'

The other form of slavery is seen in the light of sinful man seizing people against their will in order to be a slave. There is cruelty and mistreatment involved. In this you won't find the slave saying he loves his master and refusing to be set free.

stork321 · Aug 19, 2011

Princessdi said:
I think we can expand upon this question by taking it further than slavery. God has granted man free will, meaning He, Himself, gave up a portion of His control. He chose to allow man to choose a relationship with Him. He chose to allow man the choice of obedience. He knew that if man made the wrong decision, which he[mankind] did, then many things would happen that he never meant for man. Slavery being one of those things, as all are equal in His sight. God gave man[mankind] dominion and responbility over the earth, animals, etc. not control over each other. Salvery, no matter how you define, is a result of sin, and man's subsequent desire to control and dominate those of his own kind.

I shared your thought to that "cyber friend" of mine, well I guess I don't have any intentions to reply to him anymore..After all he just refute what I said to him and really he don't believe that God is a loving God..And he thinks that the bible is just a fiction.

he also said that slavery is not a result of sin because it was commanded by God..also God commanded that the captured women and children can be slave, its that humane he said.

Thanks for your thoughts guys!

stork321 · Sep 10, 2011

Hello!

This morning I went to church and attended the doctrinal class...

In our class somebody ask to our teacher if there is somebody who is now in heaven or if someone is ascended in heaven..

Our teacher responded yes...and he name names...And he quoted 2 Corinthians 12:2

"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven."

I was astonished to his answer..I thought we, as an adventist believe that no one yet is in heaven...or maybe I just misunderstood our doctrine about that matter?

Can somebody please explain 2Cor 12:2....

And in that verse it says third heaven..can you also please explain/discuss about third heaven...or if there is third maybe there is first and second heaven can you also please explain that heavens...

thanks..

k4c · Sep 10, 2011

stork321 said:
Hello!

This morning I went to church and attended the doctrinal class...

In our class somebody ask to our teacher if there is somebody who is now in heaven or if someone is ascended in heaven..

Our teacher responded yes...and he name names...And he quoted 2 Corinthians 12:2

"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven."

I was astonished to his answer..I thought we, as an adventist believe that no one yet is in heaven...or maybe I just misunderstood our doctrine about that matter?

Can somebody please explain 2Cor 12:2....

And in that verse it says third heaven..can you also please explain/discuss about third heaven...or if there is third maybe there is first and second heaven can you also please explain that heavens...

thanks..

Well let's read the context because I beleive he is talking about visions a revelations, not dying and going to heaven.

1 Corinthians12:1-4 As it is necessary for me to take glory to myself, though it is not a good thing, I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. I have knowledge of a man in Christ, fourteen years back (if he was in the body, or out of the body, I am not able to say, but God only), who was taken up to the third heaven. And I have knowledge of such a man (if he was in the body, or out of the body, I am not able to say, but God only), How he was taken up into Paradise, and words came to his ears which may not be said, and which man is not able to say.

We have Paul talking about a guy who had some kind of vision or revelation of heaven. Paul states he's not sure how this guy experienced this whether he actually visited heaven in his body or if it was just a vision. We know from the text that the some how he saw heaven but came back or snapped out of it in order to be able to tell Paul about. Isaiah and John saw heaven too so, though it's not common, it's not unrealistic.

stork321 · Sep 10, 2011

k4c said:
Well let's read the context because I beleive he is talking about visions a revelations, not dying and going to heaven.

1 Corinthians12:1-4 As it is necessary for me to take glory to myself, though it is not a good thing, I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. I have knowledge of a man in Christ, fourteen years back (if he was in the body, or out of the body, I am not able to say, but God only), who was taken up to the third heaven. And I have knowledge of such a man (if he was in the body, or out of the body, I am not able to say, but God only), How he was taken up into Paradise, and words came to his ears which may not be said, and which man is not able to say.

We have Paul talking about a guy who had some kind of vision or revelation of heaven. Paul states he's not sure how this guy experienced this whether he actually visited heaven in his body or if it was just a vision. We know from the text that the some how he saw heaven but came back or snapped out of it in order to be able to tell Paul about. Isaiah and John saw heaven too so, though it's not common, it's not unrealistic.

sorry but I'm still confused

In Paul's vision he says that he knew a man fourteen years ago who was caught up in heaven....and he also knew such a man who was caught up in to paradise and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

So someone now is in heaven?

EastCoastRemnant · Sep 10, 2011

stork321 said:
sorry but I'm still confused

In Paul's vision he says that he knew a man fourteen years ago who was caught up in heaven....and he also knew such a man who was caught up in to paradise and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

So someone now is in heaven?

Being taken up to heaven in a prophetic sense is being shown things of God. Sister White was, John the Revelator was and many other prophets... it doesn't mean the person was translated to Heaven, although the Bible does mention a handful that were...

k4c · Sep 10, 2011

stork321 said:
sorry but I'm still confused

In Paul's vision he says that he knew a man fourteen years ago who was caught up in heaven....and he also knew such a man who was caught up in to paradise and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

So someone now is in heaven?

The fact that Paul was talking to him about the heaven experience tells us that he is not in heaven now.

stork321 · Sep 10, 2011

Thanks for the quick replies ECR and k4c...

I now understand what 2 Cor 12:2 means..

So....Paul have a vision...

What I don't understand why it is 14 years ago?

What happened to him 14 years ago?

I read some commentary...and they have speculations that maybe it was during the 3 days that he was without sight...

hmmm...

tnx!

E.T.Elijah · Sep 11, 2011

Not to further confuse the topic of who is in heaven, the Bible does state that Enoch (Gen 5:24; Hebrews 11:5),Elijah (2 Kings 2:11, Matt 17:3-4), and Moses (Matt. 17:3-4; Jude 1:9) are also in Heaven. So yes, we Adventists do believe there are some humans in Heaven at the present time. The Bible speaks of it. But it also speaks of David still being dead and buried in Acts 2. So there are certain individuals that God has translated alive (Enoch, Elijah) and from the dead (Moses). I believe these can also be taken as examples of God's promises. Those that are alive when He returns can be represented by Elijah's translation and those that are dead in Christ when He returns are represented by Moses translation.

stork321 · Sep 11, 2011

Can someone verify when did Elijah wrote the letter in 2 Chronicles 21:12, is it before or after he was caught up by a whirlwind?

Thanks and God bless.

k4c · Sep 11, 2011

stork321 said:
Can someone verify when did Elijah wrote the letter in 2 Chronicles 21:12, is it before or after he was caught up by a whirlwind?

Thanks and God bless.

You are entering into very deep waters.

I have a whole study on the topic of people in heaven but it's too deep.

stork321 · Sep 11, 2011

k4c said:
You are entering into very deep waters.

I have a whole study on the topic of people in heaven but it's too deep.

hmmmm...

how deep is that water?

maybe I can try to dip into that water?

or maybe can you share with me your study?

k4c · Sep 11, 2011

stork321 said:
hmmmm...

how deep is that water?

maybe I can try to dip into that water?

or maybe can you share with me your study?

You'll have to find it it's called, "No one in heaven" or something like that. There are a few verses in the Bible that don't make sense with what I've been taught over the years so I did some investigating. It cleared up some things but not all.

stork321 · Sep 11, 2011

thanks! I'll look for it..

stork321 · Nov 2, 2011

I was talking with my friend yesterday and he ask me if God is a loving God and He loves all His creation then why did God allow animals to be killed, sacrificed and burned?

I was shocked and can't answer him....any ideas?

thanks...

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