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Discussion and Debate
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Politics
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STOP EXTREME GUN CONTROL BILL H.R. 127
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<blockquote data-quote="tall73" data-source="post: 75735179" data-attributes="member: 125574"><p>There is a big difference between a car, a boat, etc. and a gun. Auto insurance and such work under the premise that damage caused is accidental. Policies do not cover intentional acts.</p><p></p><p>I worked as an auto liability adjuster for an insurance company, and, while rare, we did have times where people intentionally struck another vehicle, etc. There are exclusions for such incidents.</p><p><span style="color: #000000"></span></p><p><span style="color: #000000">In dealing with firearm use you can have accidental and intentional discharges. If someone is using the firearm to commit a murder, mass shooting, etc. I am not aware of insurance that will cover it. The purpose of insurance is to be a risk mitigation tool for spreading small risks across large pools of people. Intentional criminal acts are a whole other ball game and the costs escalate in a hurry. So companies are certainly not going to sell a policy for that. </span></p><p><span style="color: #000000"></span></p><p><span style="color: #000000">As far as unintentional harm there may already be some coverage under many personal homeowners or rental policies under the liability section. And you can get umbrella policies for additional liability coverage which is excess in case you run into limits issues. Such liability coverage generally applies to temporary guests in the home or people outside the household. Here is a discussion:</span></p><p><span style="color: #000000"></span></p><p><span style="color: #000000"><a href="https://www.iii.org/article/background-on-gun-liability" target="_blank">Background on: Gun Liability | III</a></span></p><p><span style="color: #000000"></span></p><p><span style="color: #006600"><strong>Personal insurance: </strong>Insurers rarely offer any separate gun liability insurance policy. Most individuals have some property and liability coverage for firearms in their standard homeowners’ policy. Additional liability coverage is available through a personal umbrella policy. A few policies cover losses from accidental shootings in excess of the homeowners’ coverage.</span></p><p><span style="color: #006600"></span></p><p><span style="color: #006600">When there is liability insurance, it only covers accidental shootings and in some cases, acts of self-defense. There is no coverage for criminal or other intentional shootings.</span></p><p><span style="color: #006600"></span></p><p><span style="color: #006600">Although every insurance company adopts its own policy, many companies use standard homeowners and personal umbrella policies written by Insurance Services Office (ISO). The standard homeowners policy is known as an HO-3. That policy specifically mentions firearms once, as property that is covered if stolen. Firearms are not mentioned in the liability section of the policy, implying that firearm liability would be covered. A homeowners’ policy covers all liabilities that are not specifically excluded.</span></p><p><span style="color: #006600"></span></p><p><span style="color: #006600">Not all accidents are covered, per the terms of the policy. For example, if a relative living at the same home were accidentally shot, the accident would not appear to be covered.</span></p><p><span style="color: #006600"></span></p><p> <span style="color: #006600"></span></p><p><span style="color: #006600">The policy explicitly says it will <em>not</em> cover “expected or intended injury.” The policy is designed to cover accidents, not intentional, criminal actions, such as a homicide or an attempted homicide. A mass shooting would not appear to be covered. A critical point is that covering an intentional, illegal act like armed assault would violate standard underwriting principles.</span></p><p><span style="color: #006600"></span></p><p><span style="color: #006600"><span style="color: #000000">There are also organizations that people can belong to that you can pay for coverage of some legal costs in defensive shootings, etc. </span></span></p><p><span style="color: #006600"></span></p><p><span style="color: #006600"><span style="color: #000000">The portion of the bill that addresses insurance states: </span></span></p><p></p><p><span style="color: #006600">“(d) Firearm insurance.— </span></p><p><span style="color: #006600"></span></p><p><span style="color: #006600">“(1) IN GENERAL.—The Attorney General shall issue to any person who has applied for a license pursuant to subsection (c) and has paid to the Attorney General the fee specified in paragraph (2) of this subsection a policy that insures the person against liability for losses and damages resulting from the use of any firearm by the person during the 1-year period that begins with the date the policy is issued.</span></p><p><span style="color: #006600"></span></p><p> <span style="color: #006600"></span></p><p><span style="color: #006600">“(2) FEE.—The fee specified in this paragraph is $800.”.</span></p><p></p><p><span style="color: #000000">The bill indicates that this is for "liability for losses and damages resulting from the use of" any firearm by the person. </span></p><p><span style="color: #000000"></span></p><p><span style="color: #000000">So it looks like it would be starting its own federal program, with a recurring $800 fee each year, for each person who is so licensed. </span></p><p><span style="color: #000000"></span></p><p><span style="color: #000000">This is certainly not analogous to your car or boat policy. Policies and premiums are often regulated on the state level, and are generally tied to the risks posed by the insured. This, however, is a flat fee. </span></p><p><span style="color: #000000"></span></p><p><span style="color: #000000">My personal view is that this fee is high enough that it may make legally owning a firearm very difficult, or impossible, for some poorer families. People in this thread can debate the necessity of a firearm in regards to the low risk of someone being in a position to defend themselves against criminal activity. However, the neighborhoods with extremely high violent crime rates are often quite poor. </span></p><p><span style="color: #000000"></span></p><p><span style="color: #000000">Moreover, this is asking law abiding gun owners to pay for intentional criminal acts of another party.</span></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="tall73, post: 75735179, member: 125574"] There is a big difference between a car, a boat, etc. and a gun. Auto insurance and such work under the premise that damage caused is accidental. Policies do not cover intentional acts. I worked as an auto liability adjuster for an insurance company, and, while rare, we did have times where people intentionally struck another vehicle, etc. There are exclusions for such incidents. [COLOR=#000000] In dealing with firearm use you can have accidental and intentional discharges. If someone is using the firearm to commit a murder, mass shooting, etc. I am not aware of insurance that will cover it. The purpose of insurance is to be a risk mitigation tool for spreading small risks across large pools of people. Intentional criminal acts are a whole other ball game and the costs escalate in a hurry. So companies are certainly not going to sell a policy for that. As far as unintentional harm there may already be some coverage under many personal homeowners or rental policies under the liability section. And you can get umbrella policies for additional liability coverage which is excess in case you run into limits issues. Such liability coverage generally applies to temporary guests in the home or people outside the household. Here is a discussion: [URL='https://www.iii.org/article/background-on-gun-liability']Background on: Gun Liability | III[/URL] [/COLOR] [COLOR=#006600][B]Personal insurance: [/B]Insurers rarely offer any separate gun liability insurance policy. Most individuals have some property and liability coverage for firearms in their standard homeowners’ policy. Additional liability coverage is available through a personal umbrella policy. A few policies cover losses from accidental shootings in excess of the homeowners’ coverage. When there is liability insurance, it only covers accidental shootings and in some cases, acts of self-defense. There is no coverage for criminal or other intentional shootings. Although every insurance company adopts its own policy, many companies use standard homeowners and personal umbrella policies written by Insurance Services Office (ISO). The standard homeowners policy is known as an HO-3. That policy specifically mentions firearms once, as property that is covered if stolen. Firearms are not mentioned in the liability section of the policy, implying that firearm liability would be covered. A homeowners’ policy covers all liabilities that are not specifically excluded. Not all accidents are covered, per the terms of the policy. For example, if a relative living at the same home were accidentally shot, the accident would not appear to be covered. The policy explicitly says it will [I]not[/I] cover “expected or intended injury.” The policy is designed to cover accidents, not intentional, criminal actions, such as a homicide or an attempted homicide. A mass shooting would not appear to be covered. A critical point is that covering an intentional, illegal act like armed assault would violate standard underwriting principles. [COLOR=#000000]There are also organizations that people can belong to that you can pay for coverage of some legal costs in defensive shootings, etc. [/COLOR][/COLOR] [COLOR=#006600] [COLOR=#000000]The portion of the bill that addresses insurance states: [/COLOR][/COLOR] [COLOR=#006600]“(d) Firearm insurance.— “(1) IN GENERAL.—The Attorney General shall issue to any person who has applied for a license pursuant to subsection (c) and has paid to the Attorney General the fee specified in paragraph (2) of this subsection a policy that insures the person against liability for losses and damages resulting from the use of any firearm by the person during the 1-year period that begins with the date the policy is issued. “(2) FEE.—The fee specified in this paragraph is $800.”.[/COLOR] [COLOR=#000000]The bill indicates that this is for "liability for losses and damages resulting from the use of" any firearm by the person. So it looks like it would be starting its own federal program, with a recurring $800 fee each year, for each person who is so licensed. This is certainly not analogous to your car or boat policy. Policies and premiums are often regulated on the state level, and are generally tied to the risks posed by the insured. This, however, is a flat fee. My personal view is that this fee is high enough that it may make legally owning a firearm very difficult, or impossible, for some poorer families. People in this thread can debate the necessity of a firearm in regards to the low risk of someone being in a position to defend themselves against criminal activity. However, the neighborhoods with extremely high violent crime rates are often quite poor. Moreover, this is asking law abiding gun owners to pay for intentional criminal acts of another party.[/COLOR] [/QUOTE]
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