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Thank you for the complimentReformationist said:WashedClean, let me just say that I think your posts make sense and they are wonderfully and thoughtfully given.
I do have one question though...
You said, "But the difference between someone who is regenerate and one who is not is the level of awareness of their sinfulness.
What controls a person's level of awareness of their sinfulness?
hobart schmedly said:While it may be fun to discuss this "novelty" doctrine, in practical experience it is pretty much meaningless.
What a person thinks on this issue, either way in favor or against, makes no difference.
If someone will, please show me why people worry so much about this?
While i agree in some part with what you have stated it is not just a "novelty" doctrine. True this is one of those discussions that is discussed over and over again. Some discuss it so much that they forget their true calling. I am very tired of an us vs. them attitude in this discussion from some Calvinists and Arminians to the other side. Many times this discussion and others like it get in the way of fellowship and worship of our Father.hobart schmedly said:While it may be fun to discuss this "novelty" doctrine, in practical experience it is pretty much meaningless.
What a person thinks on this issue, either way in favor or against, makes no difference.
If someone will, please show me why people worry so much about this?
I really do not see why you are so defensive about this Ref. This was a sincere question and certainly not a complaint. The reason I did not comment is because, like I said, it is really a non-issue. What people think about it makes no difference in their faith, salvation, or walk with God. It appears to me to be one of those "dead wood" doctrines that just seem to get a lot of people upset about nothing.... or rather nothing anyone can do anything about. Why would we want to separate ourselves from each other for such a non-issue? There is not a single person born who is going to heaven or going to hell over this issue. Not one. Some have made it into a "pet doctrine" and just use it to pit people against each other who should be in unity. Going on and on about it just seems to do harm and no good at all. It would be different if it were one of the main doctrines of Christ, but it is not. It is barely mentioned in scripture and never in connection with faith to be saved or overcoming the world.Reformationist said:What novelty doctrine are you referring to?
It may make no difference to you what others think and how what they think causes them to view God but it does matter to me.
If someone will, please explain to me why someone is in a thread, taking the time to complain about what others think, only to tell others what they think. If it means so little to you, hobart, then why did you take the time to comment? Why don't you just run along and troll a thread that you start rather than belittling the questions of others? I'm sure that would be more productive.
Thanks BH.Blackhawk said:While i agree in some part with what you have stated it is not just a "novelty" doctrine. True this is one of those discussions that is discussed over and over again. Some discuss it so much that they forget their true calling. I am very tired of an us vs. them attitude in this discussion from some Calvinists and Arminians to the other side. Many times this discussion and others like it get in the way of fellowship and worship of our Father...
Its a good question. I was raised in a Christian family in the Reformed tradition. When I read threads about "making the decision for Christ", I often think that's great. But why did you make that decision. With your fallen sinful nature, what made you see that sin and repent and come to Christ. It comes down to people wanting credit for coming to Christ, like they need some recognition for it. Ultimatly, they did nothing, Christ did it all.Reformationist said:Hello everyone. As most of you know I am a reformed Christian. I'm not going to go into detail as to what that means right now but most of you are familiar with Calvinism so there's probably no need.
There is something that the Protestant community has strongly embraced since the 19th century that, to this day, continues to confuse me.
It is the issue of man's volitional ability to "make a decision for Christ." I have had more discussions on this issue than I can remember and it is still a mystery to me. For two hundred years the predominant Protestant view regarding man's volitional inclination in his unregenerate state dealt primarily with his inability to acknowledge Christ's Lordship in his unregenerate state yet many Protestants wholly disagree with this, making professions of man's moral freedom to not only ascertain the things of God, which Scripture claims cannot be acknowledged by the carnal mind, but to actually embrace them, thereby obligating God to extend His grace of salvation.
It seems that this question would not be a difficult one to answer but I am yet to receive an answer that glorifies the Creator rather than the creation.
So, on to my question:
What do you believe is the defining difference between those that do embrace the Gospel unto salvation and those that don't?
I feel that this is an important and complicated issue so I ask that any who wish to participate do so with an open mind and a desire to explain their position to those of opposing viewpoints. Therefore, I ask that people don't drop a one word bomb, like, "grace" or "free will," and then bail on the thread. Please explain your answer and let us all seek to glorify God with our behavior in this thread.
God bless,
Don
Covenant Heart said:Reformationalist, as I see it, you raise three issueseach of which comes back to the same point.
First, every Christian tradition has its own affective language of piety. And the terms and phrases by which every branch of the church voices its faith gives indication of how this undoubted Christian faith is held in that particular faith community. That holds for all of us.
Human volition aside, making "a decision for Christ" has never been the affective language of reformed piety. Thats just not how reformed believers express their relationship with God. To learn how reformed folk express faith, one need only return to the reformed confessions.
Westminster Larger Catechism, Q&A 194 speaks of the satisfaction of Christ that is "apprehended and applied by faith." The Second Helvetic Confession speaks of a "living, quickening faith" that "apprehends Christ" and says that "faith receives Christ" (chapter 15). Chapter 16 says that Christian faith is "a most firm trust and a clear and steadfast assent of the mind, and then a most certain apprehension of the truth of God presented in the Scriptures...and especially of God's promise and of Christ who is the fulfillment of all promises.
Heidelberg Catechism, Lord's Day 7, Q21 asks, "what is true faith." The answer (one of my favorites) is that "true faith is not only a sure knowledge, whereby I hold for truth all that God has revealed to us in His Word, but also a hearty trust, which the Holy Ghost works in me by the Gospel, that not only to others, but to me also, forgiveness of sins, everlasting righteousness, and salvation are freely given by God, merely of grace, only for the sake of Christ's merits.
While other examples exist, this shows that "decisions for Christ" has never been the language of reformed piety. Such language has affinity to Finneys revivalism and the broader evangelical community. But the reformed interpretation of our faith has its own affective language of piety, and it is not the language of "decisions" but of a sure knowledge and of a trusting apprehension of Gods promises in Jesus Christ.
Second, you say that many Protestants wholly disagree with historic Protestant faith. This means that they no longer know the confessional documents in which their reformed faith is preserved (so are they still Protestants?). In my opinion, that relates directly to the adoption of an affective language of piety that is alien to the reformed faith, namely, the broader evangelical language of "making decisions for Christ."
The adoption of such language further erodes a reformed view of faith. That language is not suited to express the system of doctrine preserved in reformed confessional statements. Such language has an incurable, inherent bent toward the faith of the broad, non-reformed community. After allthat affective, faith-language was forged in the non-reformed community in order to express, serve and propagate the theology of the broader evangelical, non-reformed and non-confessional community.
Heidelberg Catechism, Lords Day 1 asks what I must know to live and die in Gods comfort. In answer, I must know the greatness of my sin and misery, how I am redeemed from all my sins and misery, and how I am to thank God for such redemption. Why change that?
That is the language which reformed believers should use. It avoids the language of "decision" altogether in order to affirm our misery (which includes inability), Gods provision for salvation (as embraced on the terms expressed in Scripture and summed in the confessions) and the call to live to God (as the necessary fruit of faith). Why change that?
The remedy needed today is to return to the confessional documents that define the reformed faith. Pastors should be held accountable to preach Biblical messages geared to the confessions on a regular basis. Church school materials should be developed to instruct our covenant youths in reformed doctrine. And ordinarily, candidates for Profession of Faith in reformed churches should show at least some acquaintance with the defining doctrines of the reformation.
Reformed faith has its own affective language of piety that has served the reformed family of churches well for 450 years. Why change now?
Third and lastly, you ask what is the defining difference between those that do and do not embrace the Gospel. Again, my answer is the same.
"Go back to the confessions!"
Granting that this doctrine is "to be handled with special prudence and care" (Westminster Confession, Ch 3, para 8), the Canons of Dort, Head 1, Article 6 says: "that some receive the gift of faith from God, and others do not receive it, proceeds from God's eternal decree." And that, my friend, is your answerjust as Synod stated it centuries ago.
That statement was framed in 1619-20. We have never improved on it. But not only do the Canons admirably define the reformed faith, they also reply masterfully to objections against it. No, these answers dont satisfy all. But just as we have not improved our answers, neither have critics improved their objections. I am ever amazed at the superlative character and abiding relevance of our reformed confessional heritage. What a rich and powerful tradition we have!
17 years ago, a very wise man whom I loved deeply but recently went to be with the Lord told me that a man of average intelligencewhom he defined as a one with a 12 grade academic educationwho mastered the Westminster Confession, the Larger and Shorter Catechisms (one can substitute the 3 Forms of Unitythe Belgic Confession, Heidelberg Catechism and Canons of Dort)had sufficient grasp of the truth to test the orthodoxy of any man alive. (Are you listening to this, people?).
It is sad that even in the reformed family of churches, many do not see the richness of their heritage. And among those who do, many are not ready to state or defend it. On the other hand, it is very heartening to know that we have in our hands already all the tools that we need. Like Jacob who was jealous of his birthright, we need to take back what is oursour affective language of reformed piety, the theology of which it was born, and the confessions in which it is defined. Let us take back our birthright and make these things truly our own once again.
This will strengthen our identity, let us serve Christ better and give us more to share with the broader community. If we're going to be reformed, study those confessions!
Covenant Heart
I just don't see the point in waltzing into someone else's "sincere question" and calling it a "novelty doctrine." If you don't have anything worthwhile to contribute then pass on by.hobart schmedly said:I really do not see why you are so defensive about this Ref.
Which part of it was sincere? The last line? It was pretty clear that you did not consider the topic to be that important so, as I said, why even take the time to post? Were you just trying to get others to see the futility of discussing something that you thought was meaningless?This was a sincere question and certainly not a complaint.
But you did comment. You commented by saying that this topic wasn't worth commenting on. Again I ask, why take the time? If it's not that important to you then go find a thread that peaks your interest.The reason I did not comment is because, like I said, it is really a non-issue.
I agree that it makes no difference with regard to salvation. This topic does directly affect our faith and our walk with God. IMO, anything that causes us to elevate ourselves to a position where we lessen what God actually did for us is damaging. No, it's not damaging to our salvation, but, as Blackhawk stated, it will definitely impact the way we view God. That, to me, is important. Hence, this thread.What people think about it makes no difference in their faith, salvation, or walk with God.
That's religion in general. Should we just stop talking about God because people don't know how to engage in a conversation without being ungodly?It appears to me to be one of those "dead wood" doctrines that just seem to get a lot of people upset about nothing.... or rather nothing anyone can do anything about.
You consider it a non-issue. Let that be your guide on how YOU participate.Why would we want to separate ourselves from each other for such a non-issue?
Unless that's what you believe my motive was this is a pointless statement. People do ungodly things. That cannot be the reason we don't discuss the attributes of God.There is not a single person born who is going to heaven or going to hell over this issue. Not one. Some have made it into a "pet doctrine" and just use it to pit people against each other who should be in unity.
Well, I can only rely on the words of my Lord when He said ALL things work to the good of those who love the Lord and are called according to His purpose.Going on and on about it just seems to do harm and no good at all.
What??!!! You don't think that man's moral freedom vs. man's depraved inability is a main doctrine of Christ? Okay.It would be different if it were one of the main doctrines of Christ, but it is not.
You really need to bone up on your knowledge of the Scriptures. The doctrines of God's grace overcoming man's sinful rebellion is a main theme of the Bible from cover to cover.It is barely mentioned in scripture and never in connection with faith to be saved or overcoming the world.
Hobart, I didn't draw the lines but at least I recognize that they're there. Do you believe that those lines are just going to disappear? They're not. Discussion, granted godly discussion, can go a long way to establishing some strong Christian fellowship. It can also teach us many invaluable lessons about how quickly we respond in ungodliness thereby helping us to watch out for that the next time we are in a debate.I am sorry you think this is trolling... but you said in your OP that you were "confused" and did "not understand". Is this subject really worth dividing the body of Christ into two groups: "Calvinists" and "Armenians".
That's exactly my question, though much easier to understand.Wrigley said:Its a good question. I was raised in a Christian family in the Reformed tradition. When I read threads about "making the decision for Christ", I often think that's great. But why did you make that decision. With your fallen sinful nature, what made you see that sin and repent and come to Christ.
Nicely said.It comes down to people wanting credit for coming to Christ, like they need some recognition for it. Ultimatly, they did nothing, Christ did it all.
Reformationist said:There is something that the Protestant community has strongly embraced since the 19th century that, to this day, continues to confuse me.
It is the issue of man's volitional ability to "make a decision for Christ." I have had more discussions on this issue than I can remember and it is still a mystery to me. For two hundred years the predominant Protestant view regarding man's volitional inclination in his unregenerate state dealt primarily with his inability to acknowledge Christ's Lordship in his unregenerate state yet many Protestants wholly disagree with this, making professions of man's moral freedom to not only ascertain the things of God, which Scripture claims cannot be acknowledged by the carnal mind, but to actually embrace them, thereby obligating God to extend His grace of salvation.
It seems that this question would not be a difficult one to answer but I am yet to receive an answer that glorifies the Creator rather than the creation.
So, on to my question:
What do you believe is the defining difference between those that do embrace the Gospel unto salvation and those that don't?
Bob Moore said:Let me see if I can help you with that. Your question is a good one, and it has to do with ones view of God. To begin. There are three, and only three, possibilities with regard to who does what in salvation, to wit: 1) God does it all and man plays no part {Calvinist}. 2) God makes salvation available, but man has to choose it {semi-pellagian heresy ala Billy Graham et.at.}. and 3) Man does the deciding and God really plays no part in salvation {pellagian heresy}.
#1 is the Biblical answer, and is fully supported by scripture. However, it is in the depraved hearts of men to want to have control over God. The second and third options provide that control. The 2nd is preferred by those who want God to have most of the glory, but desire a little for themselves ("Aren't I great? I chose God), and the 3rd is preferred by those who want all the glory. In effect what the latter options do is violate the first commandment because man is made the arbiter of salvation in the place of God.
In a word: obedience. Luke 6:46 puts it like this, "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say"? Among the things He says is that we are to believe Him.
Added in edit:
If by defining difference you mean something like, "what is it about one person that impresses God more than another", then I will add that God choses one and rejects another soly because He choses to do so. The gift of saving faith is given without regard to anything a person has done, is doing, will, or can do. This is best illustrated in Ephesians 2:8-9, "for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
not of works, that no man should glory." God owes fallen man nothing. The wonder is that He has chosen to save anyone, not that doesn't save everyone.
Bob Moore said:Thank you. I have been a teacher of Reformed theology for quite a while and if I have learned anything it is this: people do not spend sufficient time examining the Scriptures. I wonder (not really) why many are so happy to hear an opinion, any opinion, then stand on it no matter what the Bible has to say. I have always told my students not to take my word for anything, but to get in the Book and dig it out for themselves. Men make mistakes. The Bible doesn't.
One reason for Biblical ignorance is that a huge amount of time and dedication is required. You can't just skim the Bible like you can the sports section and expect to learn anything useful.
I have enjoyed your posts and responses.
hobart schmedly said:I have some very specific Biblical reasons why you are confused (your words) and why you do not understand (again your words) why people do not relate to these issues. When the air clears, or maybe in another thread I can explain.
Until then.... good luck.
Boanerge said:Reformationist, did you find the answer to your question yet?
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