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Still don't understand...

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WashedClean

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Thank you for the compliment

Good question. I guess I would say the Holy Spirit. But if one's heart is hardened, then they may not be able to accept the truth. That's why it may take some people a long time to become Christians while others hear the Word and immediately believe.

Just my $.02. I must admit, this is not something I have given a lot of thought. But I thank you for the thought provoking thread and questions, because it's something I would really like to explore. Especially being married to a non-Christian.

In Christ,

WashedClean
 
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SavedByGrace3

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While it may be fun to discuss this "novelty" doctrine, in practical experience it is pretty much meaningless.
What a person thinks on this issue, either way in favor or against, makes no difference.
If someone will, please show me why people worry so much about this?
 
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Reformationist

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hobart schmedly said:
While it may be fun to discuss this "novelty" doctrine, in practical experience it is pretty much meaningless.

What novelty doctrine are you referring to?

What a person thinks on this issue, either way in favor or against, makes no difference.

It may make no difference to you what others think and how what they think causes them to view God but it does matter to me.

If someone will, please show me why people worry so much about this?

If someone will, please explain to me why someone is in a thread, taking the time to complain about what others think, only to tell others what they think. If it means so little to you, hobart, then why did you take the time to comment? Why don't you just run along and troll a thread that you start rather than belittling the questions of others? I'm sure that would be more productive.
 
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Blackhawk

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While i agree in some part with what you have stated it is not just a "novelty" doctrine. True this is one of those discussions that is discussed over and over again. Some discuss it so much that they forget their true calling. I am very tired of an us vs. them attitude in this discussion from some Calvinists and Arminians to the other side. Many times this discussion and others like it get in the way of fellowship and worship of our Father.

However we need to discuss this topic because we are called to love God with our minds and thus should study scripture in all its nuances to try and know God more and more. Also it would be very easy for the church to get into some heretical views if we do not discuss it. Pelagius and others would have us believe that we do not need God's grace in order to accept God and that is simply untrue and unbiblical. That thought cannot be tolerated. It is heretical and more importantly is untrue and takes away from our worship and praise of God which is His due.

So this topic is very important but we must not let it get in the way of us loving God through the love of others. We must not. Not topic is so important that it should come between us and God and the love of others. However others are not so important that we should should stop this discussion altogether and limit our knowledge of God and our worship of Him.


Matt 22:35-40
35 One of them, a lawyer, asked Him {a question} testing Him,
36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"
37 And He said to him, "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
38 "This is the great and foremost commandment.
39 "The second is like it, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'
40 "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."
(NAU)

Rom 13:8
8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled {the} law.
(NAU)
1 Cor 10:24
24 Let no one seek his own {good} but that of his neighbor.
(NAU)

I Jn 3:11
11 For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another;
(NAU)
I Jn 4:7-12
7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.
9 By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him.
10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son {to be} the propitiation for our sins.
11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.
12 No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us.
(NAU)


1 Pet 1:13
13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober {in spirit} fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
(NAU)
 
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SavedByGrace3

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I really do not see why you are so defensive about this Ref. This was a sincere question and certainly not a complaint. The reason I did not comment is because, like I said, it is really a non-issue. What people think about it makes no difference in their faith, salvation, or walk with God. It appears to me to be one of those "dead wood" doctrines that just seem to get a lot of people upset about nothing.... or rather nothing anyone can do anything about. Why would we want to separate ourselves from each other for such a non-issue? There is not a single person born who is going to heaven or going to hell over this issue. Not one. Some have made it into a "pet doctrine" and just use it to pit people against each other who should be in unity. Going on and on about it just seems to do harm and no good at all. It would be different if it were one of the main doctrines of Christ, but it is not. It is barely mentioned in scripture and never in connection with faith to be saved or overcoming the world.
I am sorry you think this is trolling... but you said in your OP that you were "confused" and did "not understand". Is this subject really worth dividing the body of Christ into two groups: "Calvinists" and "Armenians".

We need to stop finding reasons to divide ourselves from each other.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Thanks BH.
Good points.
 
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Wrigley

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Its a good question. I was raised in a Christian family in the Reformed tradition. When I read threads about "making the decision for Christ", I often think that's great. But why did you make that decision. With your fallen sinful nature, what made you see that sin and repent and come to Christ. It comes down to people wanting credit for coming to Christ, like they need some recognition for it. Ultimatly, they did nothing, Christ did it all.
 
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Wrigley

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Nice post.
 
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Reformationist

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hobart schmedly said:
I really do not see why you are so defensive about this Ref.
I just don't see the point in waltzing into someone else's "sincere question" and calling it a "novelty doctrine." If you don't have anything worthwhile to contribute then pass on by.

This was a sincere question and certainly not a complaint.
Which part of it was sincere? The last line? It was pretty clear that you did not consider the topic to be that important so, as I said, why even take the time to post? Were you just trying to get others to see the futility of discussing something that you thought was meaningless?

The reason I did not comment is because, like I said, it is really a non-issue.
But you did comment. You commented by saying that this topic wasn't worth commenting on. Again I ask, why take the time? If it's not that important to you then go find a thread that peaks your interest.

What people think about it makes no difference in their faith, salvation, or walk with God.
I agree that it makes no difference with regard to salvation. This topic does directly affect our faith and our walk with God. IMO, anything that causes us to elevate ourselves to a position where we lessen what God actually did for us is damaging. No, it's not damaging to our salvation, but, as Blackhawk stated, it will definitely impact the way we view God. That, to me, is important. Hence, this thread.

It appears to me to be one of those "dead wood" doctrines that just seem to get a lot of people upset about nothing.... or rather nothing anyone can do anything about.
That's religion in general. Should we just stop talking about God because people don't know how to engage in a conversation without being ungodly?

Why would we want to separate ourselves from each other for such a non-issue?
You consider it a non-issue. Let that be your guide on how YOU participate.

There is not a single person born who is going to heaven or going to hell over this issue. Not one. Some have made it into a "pet doctrine" and just use it to pit people against each other who should be in unity.
Unless that's what you believe my motive was this is a pointless statement. People do ungodly things. That cannot be the reason we don't discuss the attributes of God.

Going on and on about it just seems to do harm and no good at all.
Well, I can only rely on the words of my Lord when He said ALL things work to the good of those who love the Lord and are called according to His purpose.

It would be different if it were one of the main doctrines of Christ, but it is not.
What??!!! You don't think that man's moral freedom vs. man's depraved inability is a main doctrine of Christ? Okay.

It is barely mentioned in scripture and never in connection with faith to be saved or overcoming the world.
You really need to bone up on your knowledge of the Scriptures. The doctrines of God's grace overcoming man's sinful rebellion is a main theme of the Bible from cover to cover.

I am sorry you think this is trolling... but you said in your OP that you were "confused" and did "not understand". Is this subject really worth dividing the body of Christ into two groups: "Calvinists" and "Armenians".
Hobart, I didn't draw the lines but at least I recognize that they're there. Do you believe that those lines are just going to disappear? They're not. Discussion, granted godly discussion, can go a long way to establishing some strong Christian fellowship. It can also teach us many invaluable lessons about how quickly we respond in ungodliness thereby helping us to watch out for that the next time we are in a debate.

God bless
 
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Reformationist

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That's exactly my question, though much easier to understand.

It comes down to people wanting credit for coming to Christ, like they need some recognition for it. Ultimatly, they did nothing, Christ did it all.
Nicely said.

God bless
 
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Bob Moore

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Let me see if I can help you with that. Your question is a good one, and it has to do with ones view of God. To begin. There are three, and only three, possibilities with regard to who does what in salvation, to wit: 1) God does it all and man plays no part {Calvinist}. 2) God makes salvation available, but man has to choose it {semi-pellagian heresy ala Billy Graham et.at.}. and 3) Man does the deciding and God really plays no part in salvation {pellagian heresy}.

#1 is the Biblical answer, and is fully supported by scripture. However, it is in the depraved hearts of men to want to have control over God. The second and third options provide that control. The 2nd is preferred by those who want God to have most of the glory, but desire a little for themselves ("Aren't I great? I chose God), and the 3rd is preferred by those who want all the glory. In effect what the latter options do is violate the first commandment because man is made the arbiter of salvation in the place of God.

So, on to my question:

What do you believe is the defining difference between those that do embrace the Gospel unto salvation and those that don't?

In a word: obedience. Luke 6:46 puts it like this, "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say"? Among the things He says is that we are to believe Him.

Added in edit:

If by defining difference you mean something like, "what is it about one person that impresses God more than another", then I will add that God choses one and rejects another soly because He choses to do so. The gift of saving faith is given without regard to anything a person has done, is doing, will, or can do. This is best illustrated in Ephesians 2:8-9, "for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
not of works, that no man should glory." God owes fallen man nothing. The wonder is that He has chosen to save anyone, not that doesn't save everyone.
 
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Reformationist

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Nicely said Bob.

God bless,
Don
 
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Bob Moore

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Thank you. I have been a teacher of Reformed theology for quite a while and if I have learned anything it is this: people do not spend sufficient time examining the Scriptures. I wonder (not really) why many are so happy to hear an opinion, any opinion, then stand on it no matter what the Bible has to say. I have always told my students not to take my word for anything, but to get in the Book and dig it out for themselves. Men make mistakes. The Bible doesn't.

One reason for Biblical ignorance is that a huge amount of time and dedication is required. You can't just skim the Bible like you can the sports section and expect to learn anything useful.

I have enjoyed your posts and responses.
 
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Reformationist

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Wise advice. I think that many people who have a problem with reformed doctrines don't even take the time to study the Gospel. So many Christians I've met just learn a view in a church and then believe there can't be any other interpretation. The Truth is that, though the Bible takes much dilligent study, the Truth is there. It's not difficult to see. I think you're right. Most people just don't want to take the time to find it for themselves.

I have enjoyed your posts and responses.

Thank you,
God bless
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Whoa...
ok......
I have some very specific Biblical reasons why you are confused (your words) and why you do not understand (again your words) why people do not relate to these issues. When the air clears, or maybe in another thread I can explain.
Until then.... good luck.
 
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Reformationist

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hobart schmedly said:
I have some very specific Biblical reasons why you are confused (your words) and why you do not understand (again your words) why people do not relate to these issues. When the air clears, or maybe in another thread I can explain.

Look forward to it.

Until then.... good luck.

Good luck to you as well.

God bless
 
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Reformationist

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Boanerge said:
Reformationist, did you find the answer to your question yet?

Unfortunately yes. The reason I say unfortunately yes is because it has become clear that those who subscribe to the idea that man, in his carnal state, makes a decision to submit to the lordship of Christ see the difference as a difference in the person, rather than in the plan of God.

It has been made clear that those who embrace this idea believe that all people receive the same grace but the outcome is based on how the individual responds to that grace. In effect, they are saying that the grace is only successful in accomplishing it's goal if the individual complies with that grace. God's sovereign, eternal plan is subservient to man's "free will."

The only exception I can see to this is the Catholic position, and that only partially. At least Catholic Christians claim that all the grace is purposed to accomplish is to bring the person to a position to be able to make a decision, either for or against. I believe this view seriously deprecates God's role in man's salvation and erroneously elevates man's decisions to a position of authority above God's immutable will.

The unfortunate circumstance this position is placed in is one of pure denial in my opinion. The claim is clearly relayed that the decision to be saved is subject to man's will, not God's sovereign plan and the only way to defend this view is to say that God is in control when that's obviously not what they believe.

So, sadly, yes. I have received an answer.

God bless
 
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