Stigmata

Chris†opher Paul · Jun 21, 2002

Do you all believe that these are genuine gifts from God?

I do, but I am wondering about something:

1. Padre Pio had holes in his palms.

2. Father Bruse had them in his wrists.

3. It is thought that Christ had to be nailed through His wrists, in order to support his body weight, since there is not a bone in the palm to stop the nail from tearing through his hand.

So, why are two examples of the Stigmata in different places?

Is it all in their minds? Mind over matter type of thing?

Avila · Jun 21, 2002

*raises hand* Ooh, ooh!!! I think I got it!

If you notice crucifixes over the years, the older ones have the nails in the palms. As we learned more, crucufixes began portraying the nails in their scientifically/historically accurate position. As this knowledge changed, the stigmatas began appearing in the wrists, not palms. Interesting, eh? My DH explains it like this - the stigmatas appeared where the people of the time thought the nails were placed.

Reformationist · Jun 21, 2002

Originally posted by Avila
*raises hand* Ooh, ooh!!! I think I got it!

If you notice crucifixes over the years, the older ones have the nails in the palms. As we learned more, crucufixes began portraying the nails in their scientifically/historically accurate position. As this knowledge changed, the stigmatas began appearing in the wrists, not palms. Interesting, eh? My DH explains it like this - the stigmatas appeared where the people of the time thought the nails were placed.

But if they are gifts from God, and He obviously knew the correct location, why is there a variance based on the perception of the human populace?

nyj · Jun 21, 2002

Originally posted by Reformationist

But if they are gifts from God, and He obviously knew the correct location, why is there a variance based on the perception of the human populace?

God has always worked with His creation.

Reformationist · Jun 21, 2002

Originally posted by nyj

God has always worked with His creation.

Sorry. I don't understand what you mean.

VOW · Jun 21, 2002

To Reformationist:

I think NYJ was making a "milk before meat" type remark about God. He will reveal Himself only to the extent that people can understand Him.

BTW, I love your avatar!

Peace be with you,
~VOW

Reformationist · Jun 21, 2002

Originally posted by VOW
To Reformationist:

I think NYJ was making a "milk before meat" type remark about God. He will reveal Himself only to the extent that people can understand Him.

Peace be with you,
~VOW

Oh. Do you think that making the marks of the stigmata appear in an area not recognized by common public perception would be confusing? Maybe you're right.

BTW, I love your avatar!

Thanks. I miss the days when my little cherub actually slept.

kitkatsnarepadpen · Jun 21, 2002

Originally posted by s0uljah
3. It is thought that Christ had to be nailed through His wrists, in order to support his body weight, since there is not a bone in the palm to stop the nail from tearing through his hand.

So, why are two examples of the Stigmata in different places?

Is it all in their minds? Mind over matter type of thing?

i was watching something on tv that said that christ could have beennailed in the palm of the hand because he had a platform for his feet which kept the wieght from his hands

Reformationist · Jun 21, 2002

Originally posted by kitkatsnarepadpen
i was watching something on tv that said that christ could have beennailed in the palm of the hand because he had a platform for his feet which kept the wieght from his hands

The inconsistancy with that is that the normal cause of death for a crucifixtion would be suffocation. And, as I imagine they would have wanted it to be as painful as possible for Christ, I believe if there was a platform, it was probably removed after the nails were in place.

God bless.

kitkatsnarepadpen · Jun 21, 2002

another use of the platform was to prolong his death so it would be more painfull.(sorry this has nothing to do with stigmata)

MatthewDiscipleofGod · Jun 21, 2002

There was a platform. What would happen is it would allow for them to push themselves up for a gasp of air. If they didn't have it they would die in a short time. If it went on to long though they would break the legs so they couldn't push themselves up any longer. In Jesus case they didn't have to. They just put a sword into his side and saw water and blood. A sure sign he had died.

TheBear · Jun 21, 2002

Many historians say that in addition to nailing the feet and hands to the cross or tree, the victims of crucifixion were also tied by rope, around the arms, to the upper portion of the cross or tree. This would give the major support for the body weight. It is therefore quite reasonable to assume that the spikes were driven into Christ's hands, as scripture indicates.

John

BTW, I am past milk and meat......It's time for desert!

isshinwhat · Jun 21, 2002

I will try to find the page again, but a scientist has recently put forth some rather convincing evidence that nails could have been through the palms of Christ, and that his weight could have been supported... The search begins.

Neal

TheBear · Jun 22, 2002

I have heard that explaination as well, Neal. I think that somewhere along the way, in an effort to make the crucifixion account seem medically feasable, the switch from Jesus' hands being nailed, to Jesus' wrists being nailed, came from people who did not believe the nailed hands would support the weight of the body. Nor did they take into account what many historians claim, that the arms were tied off, as well.

John

TheBear · Jun 22, 2002

A follow-up point about crucifixions. Generally speaking, most people who were crucified, took a couple of days or longer to die, depending on their physical condition at the time of their crucifixion. Public humiliation was a major part of the crucifixion process.

According to some, Saint Andrew is said to have been crucified on a diagonal, or x - shaped, cross.

John

VOW · Jun 22, 2002

::: uploading chocolate to Bear :::

First, I'll state that I believe the Shroud of Turin is the actual burial cloth of Christ.

The Shroud shows the marks to be in the wrists, and it's also noteworthy that the imprints of the hands on the Shroud only show the four fingers. It's suppositioned that the nails through the wrists would sever the tendon to the thumbs, and cause the thumb to retract into the palm of the hand.

There are no rope burns on the arms of the figure of the Shroud.

Peace be with you,
~VOW

isshinwhat · Jun 22, 2002

The page is a little graphic for some, but here it is.

http://shroud.com/zugibe.htm

It is very interesting, to say the least.

God Bless,

Neal

TheBear · Jun 24, 2002

Not sure if ligature marks would show up on the shroud, if they did not break the skin.

BTW, thanks for the chocolate, VOW.

John

Chris†opher Paul · Jun 24, 2002

Thanks for the responses everyone.

/s0uljah feels horrible for our Lord as tears well up in his eyes.

VOW · Jun 24, 2002

To Bear:

I don't see how the ligatures could NOT break the skin. Hanging on the Cross for hours, sawing back and forth, trying to breathe...

Every single wound mentioned in Scripture that occurred to Christ before the Crucifixion shows plainly on the Shroud. Places where the thorns from the crown placed upon the Head of Jesus pierced the scalp; the dumbbell-shaped pieces of iron tied to the ends of the whip, abrasions on the knees from falling, and also scrapes where the bar of the Cross rested upon His shoulders, they are all present on the Shroud.

It's an incredible piece of history.

Peace be with you,
~VOW

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