Statements About of the Hebraic Roots Movement: To Christians and Messianics

AnthonyForChrist · Nov 24, 2003

I was wondering about the Jewish Roots movement. It is very attractive to me, but I am now feeling in some regards that it is becoming dangerous. I love the Jewish people, and renounce ant-Semitism in any form, including within the Church. But there is a problem. I think that the Church has alienated the Jewish people for ages, but I also think that because many Jews are coming to faith in Jesus, they feel they can change doctrines, reasoning that Christendom's teachings are "pagan." While there are certainly pagan influences in many Christian doctrines (like the Roman Catholic Church, for example, in their use of images), I don't believe that Jews can come and seize the faith and do with it what they will, because the "Gentile Church" has strayed from the "Jewishness of the faith." It is true that Jews have a right in claiming hold of the faith, because the Messiah was given to them, after all. What I don't agree with is that it seems Messianics are taking advantage of the Holy Spirit, that calls the Church to love its Christian brethren, and convincing that much of what they have been taught in their lives in the churches are wrong, because they simply don't have Jewish understandings that would help them resolve complications in doctrinal matters. The Messianic Jews are a fairly recent development, which I always believed was a "sign of the times." Because they are still in their formulative stages, many uncouth doctrines may arise as the Messianics still struggle to find their identity and place in the Body of Christ. Both Jews and Christians are wrong in their beliefs in many ways, and need one another to find stability. But to say that the Messianics somehow are superior in their understanding for the mere sake of their having a Jewish backround, well that is wrong. Under Christ, there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile, and really the Church is no better than the Messianic congregations, nor vice versa. Together, the truth will come out. I love the Messianic Jews, and for awhile I found myself putting away my King James Bible, to replace it with the Complete Jewish Bible. This isn't healthy. As a Gentile believer, to try to become something I'm not isn't right. Being exposed to the Messianic movement isn't bad for Christians isn't bad. It helps them appreciate the Torah and to curb any anti-Semitism in their faith. But I still believe a Christian should become absolutely firm in his understanding before delving too deeply in some of the Messianic teachings, especially where mysticism is concerned. To be a neophyte in one's own religion while trying to understand something new can be dangerous. To be uncertain in even the roots of one's own understanding of the faith of Jesus, in its historical and cultural framework, dabbling in another can be dangerous.
I commend the Jewish Roots movement for opening our eyes to new ideas, and restoring the "Jewishness" of our faith, but I pray the Holy Spirit will guide you, and keep you from false doctrines, because just as the Christians have many "unbiblical" ideas floating around, so do the Messianics, as they are still trying to catch up in some ways to the two-thousand years the Gentiles have enjoyed the New Covenant, while trying to correct some of the more obvious doctrinal errors, showing that the Bible is indeed Jewish through and through. I believe that the Church is experiencing much the same problems the Pharisees did in Y'shua's time, and I think that is what is pushing people away from the faith. But to say this is occurring because Christianity is "pagan" or "incorrect," that is simply not true. Everyone makes mistakes, Christians and Jews alike. My Messianic, brethren, do not be ashamed of Christianity, or things of Christians. You would be doing much the same to the Christians as the Church has done to the Jews. We must learn to embrace one another, and be on guard, because while Christians and Messianics alike are trying to understand their identity in the advent of this new relationship, we must be careful to not allow the Adversary to pervert our understanding while we are still fragile.

simchat_torah · Nov 24, 2003

Anthony,

Perspective.
It's all about perspective.

, they feel they can change doctrines, reasoning that Christendom's teachings are "pagan."

Yes, that is true ... to an extent. However, if you go back in time, you will see that Christinaity changed doctrines, and essentially replaced the Jewish religion. Where was their authority to do this??? Why did they change it if the Messiah, and subsequent Jewish followers, did not change the religion?

What I propose to you is not that Messianic Judaism is 'changing' the religion, but rather restoring the religion to what it originally entailed.

I don't believe that Jews can come and seize the faith and do with it what they will, because the "Gentile Church" has strayed from the "Jewishness of the faith."

I don't think that Jews are 'seizing the faith'. Instead, many are... as I stated earlier... restoring the oringinal faith of the believers. Again, I could once more ask, what right did those in times past have to 'seize the Jewish religion' and create christinaity as we see it today?

You see, the question can go both ways.

The Messianic Jews are a fairly recent development,

Ahhh... I've covered this in great detail in this forum before.
1) I can point to the Netzarim (messianic sect of Judaism) which existed from the first century and well into the 13th century, if not further.
2) I could aslo point to a number of MJ congregations and Messianics through the 1700's - early 1900's.

In other words, Messianics are not 'recent' in history as many americans would like to claim. Most of the Messianic congregations were outside of the US until the late 1800's and early 1900's.

Under Christ, there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile

Ahhh... is this true?
Then there would be no male, or no female.
Hmmm... certainly there's a better way to interpret what is said here, nu?

While it is true, as we stand before HaShem, the differences between us crubmble, there certainly is a difference between male and female, Jew and Gentile.

Just as there are certain laws that apply just to women, or just to men... there are prophecies that apply to Jews, etc.

This topic as well has been covered in great detail on this fourm, and if R. Cohen would be kind enough to share his perspective on this verse, I'm sure we all would be blessed.

Shalom,
Yafet.

AnthonyForChrist · Nov 24, 2003

simchat_torah said:
Anthony,

Perspective.
It's all about perspective.

I am usually wary on people's emphasis on perspective. That is usually associated with the idea of relativism, which is a very New World Order-promulgated concept. Not to accuse you of this, but there is a definite truth, and it is the responsibility of the Christians and the Messianics together, for the sake of the world, to limit bias to discern what the truth actually is.

Yes, that is true ... to an extent. However, if you go back in time, you will see that Christinaity changed doctrines, and essentially replaced the Jewish religion. Where was their authority to do this? Why did they change it if the Messiah, and subsequent Jewish followers, did not change the religion?

This may be true, but you can't do the same things Christians have done to the Jews by using the Messiah as the shared battleground. Reverse discrimination cannot play a role, rather a cooperation to see where both sides err in their thinking.

What I propose to you is not that Messianic Judaism is 'changing' the religion, but rather restoring the religion to what it originally entailed.

I don't think that Jews are 'seizing the faith'. Instead, many are... as I stated earlier... restoring the oringinal faith of the believers. Again, I could once more ask, what right did those in times past have to 'seize the Jewish religion' and create christinaity as we see it today?

You see, the question can go both ways.

It can go both ways. While a Jewish perspective may help to determine what "the original faith" entailed. The Messianics cannot "restore" this alone: it will take Christian cooperation. As I have said, Messianics have problems with their doctrines, too, just as Christians do. Messianics may have problems with their doctrine because they have drawn from Jewish ideas that developed aside from the New Covenant, or others that may be popular in contemporary Judaism. But to say ideas are correct just because they are associated with Judaism, given justification that Y'shua was the Jewish Messiah, just isn't logical thinking. We can't be divided into camps here. Just because one can understand concepts that aid in discerning the world from which Messiah came, doesn't mean, being a Jew, one has a monopoly or more valid say on the faith, or lessens the merits of Christian thinking. I want you to understand here that I'm only challenging the arguement here so we each don't get too stuck in our own ways of thought. What the Church has done to the Jewish people isn't right, but to say that somehow Jewish thought is more "closer to the truth" than Christian thinking, well, that isn't right. Does not the Holy Spirit speak to all of our hearts who have chosen to accept Messiah?

Then there would be no male, or no female.

Hmmm... certainly there's a better way to interpret what is said here, nu?

While it is true, as we stand before HaShem, the differences between us crubmble, there certainly is a difference between male and female, Jew and Gentile.

Just as there are certain laws that apply just to women, or just to men... there are prophecies that apply to Jews, etc.

This is associative logic, and doesn't apply to the Body of Messiah. The Gentile and Jew are equals in the eyes of HaShem, one no better than the other. Yes, there are prophecies that apply only to Israel, but being the Gentiles have placed faith in the Jewish Messiah, we are grafted into the House of Israel when the Kingdom comes. I think that for the most part, prophecies concerning Jews in the Tanakh do not pertain to those under the New Covenant, Jew or Gentile alike, but may come to pass in order to bring Israel, as the Jewish nation we see today, into the New Covenant, which will tear down the barrier between Gentile and Jew at the end of the age. All that will exist is a people counted righteous by faith in HaShem and His Messiah. Jews are the chosen people of Adonai, that much is certain. But to say they somehow are "more special" than all those under the New Covenant, well, Messiah came to remove that favoritist thinking. All those in Christ are "the light of the world," and Israel is a nation that was molded by G-d to be the light among nations. And Israel will be again. G-d wouldn't have restored Israel if He didn't plan to help them grow to spiritual maturity. The Israel we see now is incomplete, but I think Messianic believers will be an instrument in helping both the Church and Israel understand. But to say they are somehow better in understanding than everyone else and must undertake this "Jewish revival" alone, well that seems to be a kind of Pauline arrogance.

AnthonyForChrist · Nov 24, 2003

Galatians 3:24-26,28

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we may be justified by faith. But after faith, my are no longer under a schoolmaster...For there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Achichem · Nov 24, 2003

Anthony, I respect your opinion but I fell something need to be said

First Messianic or Bible based Christianity is not new

Messianics still struggle to find their identity and place in the Body of Christ.

They have a identity, observe the torah + Yeshua teachings = messianic belief

Both Jews and Christians are wrong in their beliefs in many ways, and need one another to find stability.

Equably?

But to say that the Messianics somehow are superior in their understanding for the mere sake of their having a Jewish backround, well that is wrong.

I attend a relatively orthodox Messianic Synagogue and let me tell you I as a gentile have never felt second-class to messianic Jews.

Under Christ, there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile, and really the Church is no better than the Messianic congregations, nor vice versa.

I agree, I do not think that is the argument with Messianic belief

Together, the truth will come out. I love the Messianic Jews, and for awhile I found myself putting away my King James Bible, to replace it with the Complete Jewish Bible. This isn't healthy. As a Gentile believer, to try to become something I'm not isn't right.

My church the UCG still identifies themselves as Christian and uses the KJV for a lot of things; our doctrine was build off that base (Still Torah + Yeshua).No, we are nto messianic; but we follow similar doctrine...

I wouldnt make messianic belief something it is not; it is not simply jews claming superiority over Christians; it's the Church that Yeshua build.

Being exposed to the Messianic movement isn't bad for Christians isn't bad. It helps them appreciate the Torah and to curb any anti-Semitism in their faith. But I still believe a Christian should become absolutely firm in his understanding before delving too deeply in some of the Messianic teachings, especially where mysticism is concerned. To be a neophyte in one's own religion while trying to understand something new can be dangerous. To be uncertain in even the roots of one's own understanding of the faith of Jesus, in its historical and cultural framework, dabbling in another can be dangerous.

Mainstream Christianity is no bases for believersfor the most part.

They need the foundation; for understanding

I commend the Jewish Roots movement for opening our eyes to new ideas, and restoring the "Jewishness" of our faith, but I pray the Holy Spirit will guide you, and keep you from false doctrines, because just as the Christians have many "unbiblical" ideas floating around, so do the Messianics, as they are still trying to catch up in some ways to the two-thousand years the Gentiles have enjoyed the New Covenant, while trying to correct some of the more obvious doctrinal errors, showing that the Bible is indeed Jewish through and through.

They is a big difference between Un-biblical and Heretical

I believe that the Church is experiencing much the same problems the Pharisees did in Y'shua's time, and I think that is what is pushing people away from the faith. But to say this is occurring because Christianity is "pagan" or "incorrect," that is simply not true.

I agree with the first part except I say it was always that way
And to the second partAre you joking me

Everyone makes mistakes, Christians and Jews alike.

I agree, but some repent, some make repentance something it is not.

My Messianic, brethren, do not be ashamed of Christianity, or things of Christians. You would be doing much the same to the Christians as the Church has done to the Jews.

LOL, I would gladly help a Christian; many I consiter brothers.
But when it comes to faith and religionI have never really meant one with understandingnever
And it is pagan and it is untrue.
I was an Active Roman Catholic most of my lifeand I have done research into pagan religions
Let me tell you; they have more in common with them they do Yeshua
The Jews; they make a lot of mistakesbut overall at least they kept the basics

We must learn to embrace one another, and be on guard, because while Christians and Messianics alike are trying to understand their identity in the advent of this new relationship, we must be careful to not allow the Adversary to pervert our understanding while we are still fragile.

Unity is good
But I am not going to call black white or white black.

Shalom,
DaTsar

PS I may have taken a harsher tone then necessary Im just trying to bring my point across stronglydont assume hostility please

simchat_torah · Nov 24, 2003

I am usually wary on people's emphasis on perspective. That is usually associated with the idea of relativism, which is a very New World Order-promulgated concept.

Oh, don't get me wrong Achi... I hate relativism.

I think you misconceived the specific form of perspective I was referring to: historical perspective

When you accused MJ'ism of recreating the faith, I pointed to the christians who recreated the Jewish faith.

When you were looking at a movement that began 30+ years ago in the States on a larger scale, I referred you to the movement that began in the 1st century that became perverted. Judaism, and the Netzarim to name a specific sect of Judaism, is what was originally perverted... not the other way around.

So, I suppose what I'm trying to shed light on is historical perspective, not philisophical relativism (which is sickening to say the least).

This may be true, but you can't do the same things Christians have done to the Jews by using the Messiah as the shared battleground.

I fail to grasp what you are trying to convey. To my knowledge, I have never used the messiah as a battleground with my Jewish brothers and sisters. I attend a syangouge (not messianic)... I don't "preach" to them. I did not approach Yatziv and say, "you need Y'shua".

Could you please explain what you mean by this statement???

Maybe you did not realize where I stood, or maybe I'm failing to see what your saying.

The Messianics cannot "restore" this alone: it will take Christian cooperation.

Why?

Not that I'm against the idea, but I fail to see the necessity.

As I have said, Messianics have problems with their doctrines, too, just as Christians do.

Hmmm... I would say that no one is perfect in doctrine. We all fail to perfectly define HaShem, Olam Haba, Salvation, Teshuvah, etc.

But I'm not quite sure how this again necessitates that Messianics can not forge away from mainstream christianity.

Messianics may have problems with their doctrine because they have drawn from Jewish ideas that developed aside from the New Covenant, or others that may be popular in contemporary Judaism.

1) I'm not so sure that the Jews are working outside of the New Covenant. The 'brit chadasha'... or properly translated 'REnewed covenant'... was made with those of Israel that had wandered from Torah. If you go back to Jeremiah 31, the foundation of the 'new covenant', gentiles are not even mentioned there. Who did Y'shua come for?
The Lost Sheep of Israel

a) What of the sheep that aren't lost? What of those that aren't sick? etc.
b) What of faithful Judah?

2) Your statement above assumes that evil necessarily exists with the Rabbinical Shoftim (sages) who have not historically accepted Y'shua. I think this is an absolute false assumption.

To be honest with you Achi, this is borderline antisemetic talk.

Why did the crusaders slaughter the Jews by the millions? think about it...

But to say ideas are correct just because they are associated with Judaism, given justification that Y'shua was the Jewish Messiah, just isn't logical thinking.

I don't think any Messianic here has made that claim. Subject X is not necessarily perfect JUST BECAUSE it is a Jewish concept. Even Judaism itself varies its expression... and since I am not a relativist, I don't accept multiple truths... only one.

We can't be divided into camps here.

I don't think the messianics are the ones who did the dividing... go look at the first 4 centuries of christianity and try to tell me they didn't do all they could to divide those who were Judaic in mindset.

The division has been made. In fact, most of MJ'ism attempts to restore the Christian connection. I am different from the norm in MJ'ism in that I think the Jewish bond needs to be re-established.

Just because one can understand concepts that aid in discerning the world from which Messiah came, doesn't mean, being a Jew, one has a monopoly or more valid say on the faith, or lessens the merits of Christian thinking.

Unless that form of 'christian thinking' is flawed from its foundation.

Then what?

What the Church has done to the Jewish people isn't right, but to say that somehow Jewish thought is more "closer to the truth" than Christian thinking, well, that isn't right.

And why not?

Because it offends your mind?

Is there another basis you have for this statement?

Does not the Holy Spirit speak to all of our hearts who have chosen to accept Messiah?

Does not also one's heart become hardened when they have been engrained to think a certain way?

Our minds form patterns. G-d can speak to us, but because he is speaking to us in a form in which we are not accustomed to, we can reject that voice as though it were not G-d.

Typical Christian thought patterns, in my opinion, have diverged for so long that the mind is set. When a Messianic, for example, approaches a christian the typical response is, "heretic!". Go look at the IDD forums, you'll see what I mean.

Just because G-d speaks does not mean we will listen.

The Gentile and Jew are equals in the eyes of HaShem, one no better than the other. Yes, there are prophecies that apply only to Israel, but being the Gentiles have placed faith in the Jewish Messiah, we are grafted into the House of Israel when the Kingdom comes.

and...

But to say they somehow are "more special" than all those under the New Covenant...

Here is the flaw in the logic achi:
Difference does not = Unequality

Because the Jew and the Gentile have different roles to fulfill in G-d's prophetic plan of the ages does not mean one role is greater, or that they are unequal when they stand before HaShem.

As we all stand before HaShem, our differences fade. He no longer sees a woman, he no longer sees a man, he no longer sees a Jew, and he no longer sees a Gentile.

However, as long as we are in the flesh, these physical properties exist, and we must abide by them. What happens when there is no difference between men and women? perversion. homosexuality.

I do not want to see the same type of perversion happen among G-d's prophetic calling on the Jew and the Gentile.

But do not forget, being different does not mean there is unequality.

This association of difference and unequality is a grave and incorrect way of thinking.

As well, with the above statement, you can easily feed replacement theology...

Shalom,
Yafet.

KelsayDL · Nov 24, 2003

AC,

Gentile christianity is insane. Plain and simple.

Over 1000 denominations. ALL of which are supposedly inspired by the Holy Spirit.

No...

As Yafet has pointed out, the faith of Yeshua was perverted long before the faith out of rome was found lacking.

I feel like we are in these times;

Jeremiah 16:19-
19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.

Thats certainly where I am at currently.

(But I've recently been called an angry heretic by a true "christian" so, what do I know? )

Achichem · Nov 24, 2003

simchat_torah said:
and since I am not a relativist, I don't accept multiple truths... only one.

simchat_torah said:
I think the Jewish bond needs to be re-established.

Just like to log my support....

simchat_torah · Nov 25, 2003

hahhaha...

Achichem · Nov 25, 2003

simchat_torah said:
hahhaha...

yod · Nov 25, 2003

What I don't agree with is that it seems Messianics are taking advantage of the Holy Spirit, that calls the Church to love its Christian brethren, and convincing that much of what they have been taught in their lives in the churches are wrong, because they simply don't have Jewish understandings that would help them resolve complications in doctrinal matters.

Hmmmm..

Don't you think that much of what they have been taught in their lives in the churches are wrong, because they simply don't have Jewish understandings that would help them resolve complications in doctrinal matters???

Is this really what bothers you?

it seems like a true statement to me.

simchat_torah · Nov 25, 2003

Sorry DaTsar, it was just some inside humor... no offense intended.

jeroen_81 · Nov 25, 2003

AnthonyForChrist said:
...I don't believe that Jews can come and seize the faith and do with it what they will, because the "Gentile Church" has strayed from the "Jewishness of the faith." It is true that Jews have a right in claiming hold of the faith, because the Messiah was given to them, after all.

I don't claim to know everything, but this is how i perceive the situation: the Jewish people where appointed by God Himself to be both a blessing and priests to the world. Christianity isn't property of so-called Christians, and I think it's a good thing when someone bothers to warn me about certain wrongs which need to be put right--it means they care!

Mind you there's a difference between Catholics and the Catholic Church/Catholisism. Catholics are the people, the sheep whom God loves deeply... the Catholic Church however i'm not so sure of (but then again, i'm not God!). I think the images in the Catholic Church are the least of anyone's worries: the act of praying-to and deifying them, Mary (so-called ``mother'' of God) and the Apostles is--as far as i'm aware of--outright idolatry, while the One (Christ) who they (like us) are following said Himself: ``I'm the Way, the Truth and the Life, no-one can come unto the Father than through Me.'' Not even to mention the fact that the pope claims to be God's replacement (on Earth)--which happens to be the essence of the Satanic rebellion in the first place.

In my opinion Christianity (in general) lost track quite a bit, there are way too many many proud, hatefull, resentful, ritch/idle and sophisticated Christians eventhough Jesus Himself commanded us to be humble, loving, forgiving, give (time, food, clothes, money, etc.) to the needy, and simple (though not ignorant) of heart. (I'm ashamed to say i still fit some of those groups to some degree--the Holy Spirit is working on it and doing a good job too.) I think it's a good thing to reïnstate the Lord's traditions like: Sabbath as our day of rest, in stead of the pagan sunday. I think it's a good thing to stop participating in heathen celibrations like Halloween, Christmas and Easter... our Lord God has given us His calendar and holy-days (pentecost, the feast of Tabernacles, etc.)!

, Jeroen

jeroen_81 · Nov 25, 2003

KelsayDL said:
AC,

Gentile christianity is insane. Plain and simple.

Over 1000 denominations. ALL of which are supposedly inspired by the Holy Spirit.

No...

As Yafet has pointed out, the faith of Yeshua was perverted long before the faith out of rome was found lacking.

I feel like we are in these times;

Jeremiah 16:19-
19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.

Thats certainly where I am at currently.

(But I've recently been called an angry heretic by a true "christian" so, what do I know? )

You're absolutely right about many of us gentiles messing things up. Lots of us have adopted heathen values and practices, and many have developed a similar arogance towards other-denominations and Jews alike the Jews had towards the gentiles at the time of Christ. Just like the Jewish people before us, do we seem to prefer fighting amongst eachother about theological nonsense instead of ministering to the world. Maybe it's not my place to say, but us gentiles are more or less repeating every mistake Gods people have made before us (hence proving everyone has need for the Messiah .

But now is the time to change all this, now is the time to get off our buts (no more but-this, but-that!) an start ministering to the world instead of trying to cut off parts of the body of Christ! The hand can't do without the foot, nor can the foot do without the eye, etc. In Christ we're 1 family--1 body. Jews we're appointed as priests amongst the nations, to be a blessing... so start blessing us! Yes, some wrongs require setting right: therefore on behalf of my forefathers i apologise for all injustice my people and Christians have caused on the Jewish people. It's time for peace, and since we're supposed to be the light of this darkening world... instead of condemning us, try praying and blessing us--the Holy Spirit has the best chance of convincing anyone to do the right thing and/or repent from his/her evil ways and return to Holyness (of our Christian ánd thus also Jewish roots).

, Jeroen

simchat_torah · Nov 25, 2003

I hope Kelsay doesn't mind me posting this (it came from a personal message... a 'pm'), but I think he brought up some excellent points. I think we can discuss these new aspects as opposed to this anti-messainic rhetoric as it is dangerously close to IDD forum talk.

I'll just share it in whole so that everyone can see the context:

Quote:

Who did Y'shua come for?
The Lost Sheep of Israel

Yes, that is true. He spoke those very words while on this earth. But what did he say to the Father at one point in time?

Isaiah 49: 4-5 (very interesting chapter)
4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the LORD, and my work with my God. 5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.

And the Father resoponded;

6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Isn't this passage Messianic in nature? I may be wrong, but it appears to me as such. Yeshua in our beliefs is G-ds salvation made manifest, yes?

How are we to read this chapter of Isaiah?

Peace to you and yours friend.

Well, I'll leave it up to someone else to take the reigns next.

Shalom,
Yafet.

KelsayDL · Nov 25, 2003

I hope Kelsay doesn't mind me posting this (it came from a personal message... a 'pm'),

Not at all friend. I originally typed it up as part of my reply to this thread, but then thought it may be a bit off topic so I copied it over as a pm.

AnthonyForChrist · Nov 26, 2003

It seems I might have caused a stir, and I don't want anyone to think I'm anti-Semitic. Surely I share these boards with you and thank you for the things you have shown me. Hopefully this post will help you determine my position.

DaTsar said:
Hey Anthony,

I was wondering; it sounds from your posts you having some trouble with messianic belief....and messianic beliefs v. Old Christian teachings v. PI.

Can I try and answer some questions you may be having...

Can I try and address to conflicts of were you think messianic have gone off based

I am concern you will be left driftingand no one wants that

Please either starts a thread or PM me back

I to am I messianic gentileand have studied many church doctrines...

My expertise is in Pauls letters...but I getting better at it alland I have some excellent resource at my disposal

I hope you take me up on my offer

G-d bless,

Datsar

I am currently reading a book called "Paul the Convert," which gives an analysis of Paul on the premise that he took his Judaic roots seriously. You see, Pauline doctrine is where many Christians and Jews alike have a tendency to stumble. The book addresses Paul's revelation and conversion, which, in its mystical aspect, resembles Ezekiel's call and commission. anyhoo, I know many "King James purists" who, while being devoted Christians, tend to put Torah and the Mosaic Laws in a bad light. I just never understood how they could be "bad" if they were given by God as a model for righteous living. However, I think alot of people professing to be Messianic Jews are misleading Christians with doctrines like kabbalist initiations. While I recognize that in the latter days (i.e. now) Jews will be coming to recognize Jesus as the long-awaited Messiah. However, I know that in the latter days, false teachings will abound. So, naturally you can understand my suspicion. I love the Jewish people, I understand that they have a knowledge of the early three-fourths of the Bible that many Christians do not, that the Bible is incomplete when disregarding the Old Covenant, or the Old sans the New. However, Christians and Jews alike are having a hard time discerning what roles one another are to play, or what is deemed as sound doctrine, or the place of the Torah in the Gentile life. I understand that the Torah is important, but I dont want to pretend I'm a Jew when I'm not. Furthermore, I don't want the truth of salvation by grace/faith being obscured by what could develop as a Pharisaical approach to the Law, as if it justified me through adherence. Funny thing is, I found the book in the bookstore in the Judaism section, although the author uses a clearly Christian language and orientation to argue his point. From G-d, perhaps?
The introduction of Jewish believers into the mainstream is something that must and is taking place according to prophecy, but (even as David Stern says in his introduction to the "Complete Jewish Bible") the Messianic Jews and Christians are still trying to uncover the truth in light of one another, and I don't want to compromise the things I have felt to be true on the mere basis that MJs claim to have an understanding of particular things that were previously unaware to Christians. That's why I say we need one another. The MJs may aid in clearing up some misunderstandings, but just because they have Jewish backround doesn't permit them to claim to have a monopoly on understanding, and that all things Christian are wrong. I say that Christ speaks to all those who believe, whether they be of a Jewish backround or not. At first I welcomed the Jewish Roots movement with widely opened arms until I began so absorbed that I felt myself feeling like I was trying to be a Jew, or felt myself develop a hostility for things Christian. The Gentiles have been largely entrusted with the faith for nearly two millennia, and I hate to think that we've got it all wrong and that the Messianic Jews can't learn something from us. The Church has "inherited lies" and I feel that many of its fundamentals are not accurate. However, I say don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. My particular objection is that of prophecy and the use of extrabiblical books in discerning what the future may hold. I feel that a proper understanding of prophecy can mean a big difference as to how one might hold up or evangelize in these latter days, so when MJs start introduce things so radically different and complicated (to those without Jewish understanding), naturally I get suspicious. I'm a paranoid and apocalyptic believer who is terrified of being led astray during these days, for the time is indeed at hand.

Rabbi Cohen · Nov 27, 2003

BS"D

Hmm, This didn't work - I will try again

Rabbi Cohen · Nov 27, 2003

BS"D

simchat_torah said:
This topic as well has been covered in great detail on this fourm, and if R. Cohen would be kind enough to share his perspective on this verse, I'm sure we all would be blessed.

Shalom,
Yafet.

Since I have been asked, I will post this message regarding the difference between Jew and Gentile. This post is taken from the Beit Tikvah Synagogue Forums (I mean no disrespect to Christian Forum by posting it and if I have violated any term of use, I offer my apologies and fully appreciate and respect the removal of this post.)

Before I post I just want to say a few things. I see a lot of concern here for "Which Camp is better" - does not the example in Luke 9:46 make some degree of impression upon you? It is true that one can become hyper Semitic; it is more common that there exists anti-Semitism. But really no matter what category we fall into, be it Jew or Gentile, our effect upon Hashem's will to do as He wishes with His creation is negligible. While it is true that this world was created for us, it also is true that HaKodesh Baruch Hu has never lost control of the wheel, (so to speak). People are born, live and die according to His will and the universe progresses as planned. In the final redemption leading to Olam HaBa, what matters is whether we were obedient to Him and that we progressed through our faith with a sense of honest kavannah (intention). The truth of good and evil is an inherent middah of every living person, this is a gift (if you would call it that) of the Ches eytz haDaas (Sin of the Tree of knowledge). Basically, we have the ability to know what is pleasing to Hashem and what isn't. It isn't easy; because the nature of this world and our corporeal form constantly pulls us into disobedience, but through prayer and our Holy Spirit we can indeed determine that which is pleasing in His sight.

Please don't misunderstand me; I am not against working out theology, or reasoning together. But unproductive debates waste precious time that would be better served in meditative Torah study. Nu? I post this message, lav dafka (not specifically), to accuse anyone or to criticize, these are simply my own viewpoints.

The following is entitled "No difference between Jew and Gentile" and is taken from the Beit Tikvah Synagogue Forums from thread entitled "Are Messianics Jewish?"

The Beit Tikvah Synagogue Forums said:
BS"D

Originally Posted by Rabbi Cohen 1/30/2003

No difference between Jew and Gentile

Remember in the passage quoted regarding there being no Jew and no Gentile from Gal. 2:28 it says "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, their is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus (Y'shua)." (RSV)

This obviously must mean something other than what it appears to say - because we KNOW that we KNOW that we KNOW (beyond a shadow of a doubt) that there is in fact male AND female - I mean, I count on that one.

In truth, there is Jew and Greek; Male and Female; Slaves and free men. These divisions only fade when Hashem views us. To HaKadosh Baruch Hu (The Holy One, Blessed be He), these distinctions don't matter - however, to us, they must be dealt with and handled in the real fashion, which they appear to us.

Think for a moment about the laws dealing with interpersonal relationships between a man and a woman. If there is no man and no woman (in the literal, physical sense), then these laws are pointless and we can have no understanding as to what they mean and their holiness for our life's. However, we KNOW that there are men and women, and that these family laws are given to us by our Father to increase our Kedusha. The same holds with the Jew and the Greek. We study, we learn, we pray, we live (AS JEWS and AS GENTILES) in a manner that is real and meaningful to us, thus there are laws in which Hashem has laid down for our obedience and understanding regarding our lives as Jews or Gentiles.

Ultimately, yes our concerns when we see the hungry should be to feed them, when we see the naked, we should clothe them. Likewise, when the stranger is in need of shelter, we should offer our help - But if we deny ourselves any less than we would offer others, meaning if we don't actively feed our hungry souls with Torah, or clothe our Neshamos with His Righteousness, or lodge our minds in His mitzvos then we commit a grievous aveirah.

In our dialogs here on the Beit Tikvah forums we attempt at reasoning our minds together. For scripture tells us, "Behold how good and how pleasant it is for the Brethren to REASON together"

Kol Tuv,
Rabbi Cohen

Another post in this thread you may find interesting is this:

From the Beit Tikvah Synagogue Forums said:
BS"D

Originally Posted by Petey Dragon 1/31/2003

What does it mean to be Jewish?

A question which Simchat_Torah and Shira both poked at: "What does it mean to 'be Jewish'?

Shira wrote, "I know that for my self I have to obey G-d as he speaks to me". How does G-d speak to you? What you feel in your heart? Or what he has written in His Torah? "The heart is deceptive above all else" (Jeremiah 17:9). If you trust only "what is in your heart", then you become the arbiter of holiness and not G-d.

Jews disagree wholeheartedly with the idea that any individual person gets to decide what is holy and what is not. Judaism teaches that G-d, and not men, has the right to say what is holy. Judaism further teaches that the Torah contains G-d's declaration of His standards of holiness that he expects men and women to follow.

Even Reform and Reconstructionist Jews believe this basic idea. They may have different ideas as to the intent of the laws and their application in modern life, but they still acknowledge the importance of living a righteous life according to G-d's standards.

So no, no Gentile will be judged on "how Jewish" he or she is. But all of us -- both Jews and Gentiles -- will be judged based on how well we observe G-d's standards of holiness and righteousness.

Petey

Ziet Ale Gezundt!
Rabbi Cohen

yod · Nov 28, 2003

Which Beit Tikvah are you with?

I think it comes down to this basically....

The church has defined MJs as something eclectic to the larger body [instead of the norm] because centuries of "traditions" have become the church

And she isn't ready to give them up because that would be an admission of guilt.

So it is a struggle for who is the "head".....as if it is even ours to decide?

20 This is what the LORD Almighty says: "Many peoples and the inhabitants of many cities will yet come, 21 and the inhabitants of one city will go to another and say, 'Let us go at once to entreat the LORD and seek the LORD Almighty. I myself am going.' 22 And many peoples and powerful nations will come to Jerusalem to seek the LORD Almighty and to entreat him."
23 This is what the LORD Almighty says: "In those days ten men from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, 'Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.'

No one here would advocate false teachers just because they are jewish....yet the Lord has put the man over the woman...and the church doesn't seem to mind "that one"

Statements About of the Hebraic Roots Movement: To Christians and Messianics

Seeker of Messiah

Got Torah?

Seeker of Messiah

Seeker of Messiah

Faithful

Got Torah?

Seeker of the Way

Faithful

Got Torah?

Faithful

the wandering goy

Got Torah?

Member

Member

Got Torah?

Seeker of the Way

Seeker of Messiah

Separator of Holy Sparks

Separator of Holy Sparks

the wandering goy

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