Star of David - Is it disrespectful?

BourbonFromHeaven · Aug 16, 2005

arunma said:
Indeed. I understand why the symbol is offensive to Jews. Put simply, religious Jews may not worship Jesus. At the same time, this is precisely why I think Christians ought not to wear Stars of David.

Agreed. Things are so much easier when people recongnize differences and respect that

Talmidah · Aug 16, 2005

BourbonFromHeaven said:
Things are so much easier when people recongnize differences and respect that.

arunma · Aug 16, 2005

Well, it looks like we agree on something! Of course, we'll probably diverge in that I don't believe it's wrong for Jews to become Christians. But at least we all agree that Christians shouldn't pretend that they can practice Judaism and Christianity at the same time. We should all recognize that Judaism and Christianity are separate religions.

Talmidah · Aug 16, 2005

arunma said:
But at least we all agree that Christians shouldn't pretend that they can practice Judaism and Christianity at the same time. We should all recognize that Judaism and Christianity are separate religions.

And there's something I can agree with as well.

BourbonFromHeaven · Aug 16, 2005

arunma said:
Well, it looks like we agree on something! Of course, we'll probably diverge in that I don't believe it's wrong for Jews to become Christians. But at least we all agree that Christians shouldn't pretend that they can practice Judaism and Christianity at the same time. We should all recognize that Judaism and Christianity are separate religions.

Emphasis mine.

Nope. I don't think Christanity as a whole makes no bones about it. I am perfectly fine with you telling me, " Jesus died for your sins. Unless you accept him into your heart as your saviour, you will regret it! "

I may be wrong, but doesn't an apostle call christians to be "Fishers of men" so to speak? You can leave me fliers on my car, approach me on the street, invite me church, etc,etc. It's your fundamental right and relgious duty to do so. It's kosher and I see no problem with it.

So when Arunma asks me, in say, a college class, " Hey, Jesus was Jewish, have you ever heard his message? I'm having a bible study tonight and.." You get the point. Thats cool in my book.

However, lets say Arunma approaches me in a Flafel house, " Oy! Ya matzah been a beutiful baby. Hey hey, I kid, I kid. Ugh, this flafel gives me indigestion! I need it like I need a hole in the head! I'm bringing some home to my bubbie, then I'm going to Shul for some shmoozeing. There will be some nosh and I can tell you about Yeshua ben Yosef, ben Dovid, the moshiach melech! We'll be looking at Rabbi Sh'aul's letters to the Corinthians! He was such a mensch, a classic hasid!"

The above is not cool or kosher

arunma · Aug 16, 2005

Oh, I see. Then I suppose we agree on virtually everything. Actually, I too would be offended if another Christian acted as you described in the Flafel house scenario (unless of course he happened to be Jewish, and really did behave that way). It's wrong to pretend that Christianity is a form of Judaism, because the two religions differ on quite a bit. The two religions can't engage in ecumenical relations in the same way as, say, Catholics and Protestants. For example, while the Pope has celebrated the Eucharist with Protestants on rare occasions, it would be blasphemous for him to do the same thing with non-Christian Jews, just as I'm sure it would be sacrilige for Jews to include Christians in certain Jewish rituals.

While we're at it, I should also mention that I'm also strongly opposed to compulsive methods of proselytizing, such as threatening to convict Jews of idolatry in an inquisition unless they become Christians.

And besides that, it would look strange for an Indian to portray himself as a Jew (unless I could convince you that I was B'nei Manasseh).

bouncer · Aug 16, 2005

arunma said:
And besides that, it would look strange for an Indian to portray himself as a Jew (unless I could convince you that I was B'nei Manasseh).

Oh but there are quite a few Indian Jews, unless the Jews don't really consider them Jews...

Talmidah · Aug 16, 2005

bouncer said:
Oh but there are quite a few Indian Jews, unless the Jews don't really consider them Jews...

If they are Jews, why wouldn't they be considered Jews?

bouncer · Aug 16, 2005

Talmidah said:
If they are Jews, why wouldn't they be considered Jews?

I think there were a few that claimed to be Jewish or were of Jewish descent but were denied immigration to Israel on grounds that they were not really Jewish.

Talmidah · Aug 16, 2005

bouncer said:
I think there were a few that claimed to be Jewish or were of Jewish descent but were denied immigration to Israel on grounds that they were not really Jewish.

Oh okay. Well, I guess that pretty much anyone can claim to be Jewish, but that doesn't mean that they indeed are Jewish.

talitha · Aug 16, 2005

I am wondering why the Messianic seal would in and of itself be an affront to the Jew. It would be a denial to skip over the fact that Jesus was a Jew; don't Christians believe that salvation is "to the Jew first and also to the Greek [ie:Gentile]?"

Talmudah, what would you say about this scripture from Isaiah -- I will give, in my house and within my walls, a monument and a name Better than sons and daughters; an eternal, imperishable name will I give them. And the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD, ministering to him, Loving the name of the LORD, and becoming his servants-- All who keep the sabbath free from profanation and hold to my covenant, Them I will bring to my holy mountain and make joyful in my house of prayer; Their holocausts and sacrifices will be acceptable on my altar, For my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples. Thus says the Lord GOD, who gathers the dispersed of Israel: Others will I gather to him besides those already gathered.

blessings
tal

Talmidah · Aug 16, 2005

talitha said:
Talmudah, what would you say about this scripture from Isaiah -- I will give, in my house and within my walls, a monument and a name Better than sons and daughters; an eternal, imperishable name will I give them. And the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD, ministering to him, Loving the name of the LORD, and becoming his servants-- All who keep the sabbath free from profanation and hold to my covenant, Them I will bring to my holy mountain and make joyful in my house of prayer; Their holocausts and sacrifices will be acceptable on my altar, For my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples. Thus says the Lord GOD, who gathers the dispersed of Israel: Others will I gather to him besides those already gathered.

I'm not sure what you're wanting to know about those verses

BourbonFromHeaven · Aug 16, 2005

talitha said:
I am wondering why the Messianic seal would in and of itself be an affront to the Jew. It would be a denial to skip over the fact that Jesus was a Jew;

Messianics are quite a sore spot today. They have a long (well, since the 60s) history of deception. Yes, Jesus was Jewish, but what he taught isn't Jewish.

The Jewish people have a specific identity. It's who we are and we pride ourselves on it. It's how we endure. There are all kinds of different Jews in the world, while I may disagree with say, One of the Karaites on this board ( You listening Steveo?) We still agree on alot if not most fundamental beliefs about God. We are, in a sense, united by that.

The notion that Jesus died for anyone's sins is not a Jewish ideal or belief. So, when a Christian (vast majority of messianics are gentiles) grows a beard, puts a yarmulke on and glues a fish to the bottom of a Star of David, he is only fooling himself.

It's culture theft and dishonest.

jlujan69 · Aug 17, 2005

Messianics are quite a sore spot today. They have a long (well, since the 60s) history of deception. Yes, Jesus was Jewish, but what he taught isn't Jewish.

The reason I'm bringing up this question is that I've read Jews for Jesus responses to allegations that they practice deception. Their contention is that they advertise their activities in the local media before coming and wear brightly colored t-shirts with their name on it while on the streets. I'd be interested for clarification on how they, for example (since I'm not familiar with practices of other Messianics), practice deceptive tactics. IOW, I've never heard "the other side".

talitha · Aug 17, 2005

I am not a big fan of what I would call (from my end) "Judaizing" - to me it is a denial of the grace of God poured out once for all through Jesus. But it is my sincere belief that the my God is your God, and that Jesus is the Messiah. I know that is not what you believe, but I don't see how it's culture theft.

By the way, the origin of the Messianic symbol that I posted is very interesting. I understand that it was first discovered on first-century artifacts during archaeological digs. It certainly isn't a recent creation, for what that's worth. I deduce from what I have read and heard that this symbol was created by early converted Jews (perhaps even during Paul's time) as a representation of what they believed to be (and what I believe to be) the New Covenant for God's people.

Please don't take offense at what I am saying. I am simply trying to clarify some motivations here.

blessings
tal

urnotme · Aug 17, 2005

JesusRox said:
Do Jews find it disrespectful for Non-Jews to wear a star of david?

Why would it be considered disrespectful? Woyld you be you offend if a hindu or a muslim wore the cruss around his neck?

BourbonFromHeaven · Aug 17, 2005

jlujan69 said:
The reason I'm bringing up this question is that I've read Jews for Jesus responses to allegations that they practice deception. Their contention is that they advertise their activities in the local media before coming and wear brightly colored t-shirts with their name on it while on the streets. I'd be interested for clarification on how they, for example (since I'm not familiar with practices of other Messianics), practice deceptive tactics. IOW, I've never heard "the other side".

You have to go back to their "Chosen People Ministries" days. They actualy got banned from sevreal Eastern Slavic countries becuase they would go to Jewish daycares and "Baptize" children without permission from anyone.

Today they have cleaned up their act and got the new tag "Jews for Jesus", but it's still the same crew I imagine. Their "prooftexts" are some of the worst I have seen, and messianics are notrious for shoddy scholarship ( Dr. James Trimm anyone?)

BourbonFromHeaven · Aug 17, 2005

I am not a big fan of what I would call (from my end) "Judaizing" - to me it is a denial of the grace of God poured out once for all through Jesus. But it is my sincere belief that the my God is your God, and that Jesus is the Messiah. I know that is not what you believe, but I don't see how it's culture theft.

It's not. However, if you renamed yourself Miriam, started dressing like a Hasidic woman and presented your beliefs as just part of "Judaism", then it is.

By the way, the origin of the Messianic symbol that I posted is very interesting. I understand that it was first discovered on first-century artifacts during archaeological digs. It certainly isn't a recent creation, for what that's worth. I deduce from what I have read and heard that this symbol was created by early converted Jews (perhaps even during Paul's time) as a representation of what they believed to be (and what I believe to be) the New Covenant for God's people.

I've never seen it before. I grew kinda wary after the "James brother of Jesus" box turned out to be nothing.

Please don't take offense at what I am saying. I am simply trying to clarify some motivations here.

Absolutely none taken

arunma · Aug 17, 2005

talitha said:
But it is my sincere belief that the my God is your God, and that Jesus is the Messiah.

Can you say the same thing about a Muslim? They also claim to worship the same God. I often wonder why many Christians believe that the Jewish understanding of God is any closer to Christianity than the Muslim understanding.

talitha · Aug 17, 2005

arunma said:
Can you say the same thing about a Muslim? They also claim to worship the same God. I often wonder why many Christians believe that the Jewish understanding of God is any closer to Christianity than the Muslim understanding.

arunma, I don't believe a Muslim worships the same God - they only think they do - so many years of deception - it's horrible. I believe that the Muslim "religion" was invented by the man known as Muhammed to make a name for himself, and that it has evolved into a convoluted mess of demonic confusion. Islam is an aberration, a synretic mess. YES, the Jewish understanding of God is wayyyyyyy closer to Christianity than the Muslim understanding. I'd better quit now.....

blessings
tal

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