Thanks but you said it much more elequantly. I tend to 'speak' before I think out the way of 'speaking'
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Thanks but you said it much more elequantly. I tend to 'speak' before I think out the way of 'speaking'It is always refreshing to see and hear, when someone else also sees and hears the deeper spiritual message given in the scriptures, over that given in the flesh(outward appearance) of the scriptures.
Just as many in the man-made church today still have that fleshy veil covering up their minds from seeing those spiritual things, which can only be discerned by way of the Holy Spirit.
1 Corinthians 2:13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
imo They both see no reason to move outside their ways of thinking to explore different theories. When they do they generally move on to different denominations to explore that. Which are in their own boxes per sae. I'm not calling down the denominations but only the mindset that brings denominational thinking into an equation. Sorry if I offended.That wasn't the intent. And I'm also sure it wasn't anyone's intention to bring denominational beliefs in either.
What this thread has pointed out is how the Judaists viewed the Holy Place ( for one thing.) But the tabernacle was a shadow of what was to come. Christ. He is the altar , the lavar that washes, the bread, the light, the golden altar, all those things.
Then the thread has pointed out those who are abiding in Christ. Most prophets of old missed the time of the church like Daniel's 7th week. Yet most saw beyond that like seeing two mountains but not seeing the valley in between.
Others have refered to Revelations/Ezekial/Daniel refering to the millinium's temple While some say that it will go full circle back to the Jews rebuilding of the temple.
I think that all of them are right. The Judaists, the puritists, those who look to the things to be fulfilled. Was, is and is to come.
Just as many in the man-made church today still have that fleshy veil covering up their minds from seeing those spiritual things, which can only be discerned by way of the Holy Spirit.
1 Corinthians 2:13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Without getting into too much detail, which others have already, and sticking within the topic of the thread which is the Holy Place, the outline given to the Judaist were for our benefits as Christians to see Christ in the pattern. It consisted of the Holy Place, the Holy of Holies and the veil. We know that Christ's death has rent the veil to allow access to the Holiest place. Christians have recieved a place that daily can be accessed whereas the Judaist highest elite could go but once a year and only on the fear of death.So the tabernacle of the old testement is Judaist and the holy temple of our bodies are the new testement Christian system. I really would like to see the old tabernacle of the desert taught to every new believer to see Christ in it. We came out of Judaism but we didn't remain within it. It's merely a stepping stone."Originally Posted by Jedidia
What this thread has pointed out is how the Judaists viewed the Holy Place ( for one thing.) But the tabernacle was a shadow of what was to come. Christ. He is the altar , the lavar that washes, the bread, the light, the golden altar, all those things."
Originally posted by DaLeKo
I am not sure I am following your train of thought. Could you be a little clearer in what you are trying to say? Thanks!
Originally Posted by Jedidia
"Then the thread has pointed out those who are abiding in Christ. Most prophets of old missed the time of the church like Daniel's 7th week. Yet most saw beyond that like seeing two mountains but not seeing the valley in between."
Originally posted by DaLeKo
While it is not necessarily incorrect to say what is underlined above, it is kind of an odd way to talk about the OT prophets, isn't it? They, after all, were prophets of God because they spoke the words He told them to speak, right? They knew only what He wanted them to know. Do you really think they "missed" things when he spoke to them, like a kid who is daydreaming in school? Or did you mean something else all together?
I think 'missed' is a good word to use in reference to what they understood. Yes, the Holy Spirit did only reveal was was profitable to them at the time to know because it's said in the new testement that they would have loved to see what we are able to see now. But what they did see was the time they were living in (the one mountain per sae) and eternity or the millinium (the other mountain) w/o being able to see the church age. No blame on their part but the prophesies today are still being interpreted that way imo. But now the interpretations are seeing the old clear enough but they still run the millinium and eternity together w/o seeing the difference between them.
What was: was the Jewish belief. Totally true as it leads to ChristYou continue:
Originally Posted by Jedidia
"Others have refered to Revelations/Ezekial/Daniel refering to the millinium's temple While some say that it will go full circle back to the Jews rebuilding of the temple.
I think that all of them are right. The Judaists, the puritists, those who look to the things to be fulfilled. Was, is and is to come."
Originally posted by DaLeKo
Again, I'm having trouble following you here. Would you mind elaborating a bit, especially the part about the different beliefs expressed all being "right"?
Thanks!
--David
What is: the Christian life right now in the temple of the body
What is to come: the glory of God filling the temple.
All are the Holy Place. What was has already been desecrated and what is certainly has too as I stated in an earlier post. Only that yet to come won't be.
I hope that answers somewhat the questions.
Hi InSpiritInTruth, what is the "man-made church" you speak of above? Is it something new, or has it been around for many years? Are there certain denominations that you would call "man-made" and others "spiritual", or are all denominations "man-made"?
Thanks!
--David
if the term the "holy place" is to be take metaphorically then we first need to establish the concrete aspect of its use before we jump into the symbolic otherwise we can quickly start focusing on the wrong aspects. I would suggest with the corresponding passages in Daniel and the tradition of the Jews that the "holy place" is not a general term as in Israel or Jerusalem but more specifically the temple and even more specifically the inner chambers of the temple refereed to as the "holy of holies".
This isn't the only place where this phrase is used and you can see it when Stephen is falsely accused of blasphemy in Acts 6:13-14 saying "This man incessantly speaks against this holy place and the Law; for we have heard him say that this Nazarene, Jesus, will destroy this place and alter the customs which Moses handed down to us." This parallels with what Jesus said when he refereed he said he would "destroy the temple of God and to rebuild it in three days." (Matthew 26:61) and in this case the "holy place" would then seem to suggest the temple.
Other passages also suggest the temple in Acts 21:28 where Jews accused Paul saying "This is the man who preaches to all men everywhere against our people and the Law and this place; and besides he has even brought Greeks into the temple and has defiled this holy place." Although there accusation was wrong this is again talking about the temple.
this does confirm that culturally the Jew thought of the phrase "the holy place" as the temple.
The first time that we see 'stone' used in the bible is for Jacob's dream describiing the pillar (altar) of the 'House of God'.... Also the four Empires have been used since .....forever, and theologians just took it for granted the empires were the four kingdoms, but in light of scripture they don't fit the prophetic words, Median Persia was not INFERIOR! Greece did not rule the whole world, and the four generals who theologians say are in Daniel 11 do not fit the historical record of what is written in the bible. The biggest red flag none of this works is they all have to be around when Christ returns, because He destroys them "At the same time" the gold the silver the bronze and the clay mixed with iron are broken to pieces at the same time.......Then think realistically when Christ returns, what is His biggest obstacle the Russians, China? or some other world power, what has been God's greatest enemy.....false religions! from beginning of the bible (Babel)to the end, its always been about false gods and religions, the final beast is a conglamoration of all false religions, minus the harlot, she was only used to get where they needed to go, once they are strong enough, she will be destroyed, because they hate her (she is the one Jesus calls to "come out of her my people".....there's good people deceived in her appearence
I agree the specific text in Matthew speaks of the Holy Place in reference to the physical Holy Place, that the Jews were accustomed too.
There seems to be alot of false witnesses surround the holy place
Jesus said this right?
John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
John 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
John 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
Mat 26:60 At the last came two false witnesses,
Mat 21:61 And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.
Acts 6:12 And set up false witnesses, which said,This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place, and the law:
Acts 21:28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.
1Cr 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
1Cr 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
The Lord first shows in the natural, the greater things to come in the spiritual.
No doubt there was a literal Temple, which was built in troubled times.
No doubt there was a literal place in the first tabernacle, and in that literal Temple that was named the holy place.
No doubt the abomination that causes desolation has already been set up, and Jerusalem has already literally been surrounded by armies.
Just as there is no doubt that the literal Temple of that day was literally destroyed in 70 a.d as Jesus prophesied.
But my thread was not about the literal, but the spiritual place that dwells in the Body of Christ( the true Temple of God), not the literal place on the map.
I hope that helps you to understand where it is I am coming from. Peace.
So what is the Holy Place the Lord is refering to?
I don't believe it to be a literal place on the map, but rather a spiritual place in the heart and mind of the believer.
Thanks for the scriptures Fire.
When you read 1 Corinthians 3:17;"If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple you are."
Then you can gain understanding on the meaning of the man of sin(which is the son that goes into destruction) in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
2 Thessalonians 2:4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Man has rejected the knowledge of God, and has replaced Gods Word with his own words, and understanding.
In this sense man through his own understanding, and knowledge sits in the place of God (seat of authority) and has exalted himself( like a god); and by following his own understanding above that of the Word of God, man is showing himself that he is his own god.
Instead of recieving the knowledge of the Truth into his heart and mind(the temple of his body) man now sits in Gods place(the temple of the body God had prepared for Himself to dwell in) and man has made himself above that of the true God.
Which does make sense bro because how else could they speak the same things? As he said he that heareth Gods words is of God, ye hear them not because ye are not of God. Or similiarly as John says, we are of God, and he that is of God heareth us, which must be taken in the same way Jesus meant it (if they keep my sayings they will keep yours also) Just as we bring every thought down to the obedience of Christ, rather then exalting our own thoughts or words above His words. Which is the same as He that loveth me (keepeth my sayings) likewise.
What I was looking at too, is it speaks of "some professing" (out of the mouth) in respects to another doctrine. The same would hold true wouldnt it, in respects to what comes out of the mouth defileth the man (or the house) or temple wouldnt it? I mean wouldnt the evidence of receiving another doctrine (into your house) be that which one professes as well?
You know where it speaks of the wicked revealed? Elsewhere it speaks of the wicked before the congregation, had you noticed that?
Sorry typing freehand here
But your good at word searches
God bless you brother
Here is one about the wicked men who gathered the congregation against Moses. Which resulted in the Lord telling Moses to speak to the congregation, so that they remove themselves from about the tabernacle of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram.
These were the wicked men who strove with the man of God.
Numbers 16:26;"And he spake unto the congregation, saying, Depart, I pray you, from the tents of these wicked men, and touching nothing of theirs, lest you be consumed in all their sins."
Also that wicked revealed...
2 Thessalonians 2:7-12
King James Version (KJV)
7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
The spirit of the anti-christ(anti-truth) was already at work during the times of the apostles. He(him) is not a single individual who will come in the last days, but he is the spirit of a lie, working in many.
That is why I highlighted the words in them, they, them, and they all; which cleary speaks of more than one individual.
I think the signs of the times that are related to the Jewish faith are as real as the Jews returning to their homeland, but I don't think they hold any other significance to Christians than that. Which is what is being said in Matthew. Christians are the elect but they can be pulled into mindsets that have nothing to do with Christ.The point is that we're not Jewish, we're Christians so as Christians it's Christ and where He's at that is relevant.I agree the specific text in Matthew speaks of the Holy Place in reference to the physical Holy Place, that the Jews were accustomed too.
Question to you about these words...
"10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
The spirit of the anti-christ(anti-truth) was already at work during the times of the apostles. He(him) is not a single individual who will come in the last days, but he is the spirit of a lie, working in many."
These words are true for they are God's words. This world belief exists today.
...what is this belief of unrighteousnes, that is the lie, that all men, nations, cultures, religions, and professing "Christians" embrace today?
John 3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.Question to you about these words...
"10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
The spirit of the anti-christ(anti-truth) was already at work during the times of the apostles. He(him) is not a single individual who will come in the last days, but he is the spirit of a lie, working in many."
These words are true for they are God's words. This world belief exists today.
...what is this belief of unrighteousnes, that is the lie, that all men, nations, cultures, religions, and professing "Christians" embrace today?
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