Stand in the Holy Place

Fireinfolding · Nov 23, 2011

Yeah, if you do a search on "false witnesses" you can also see what their testimony of what they "heard" Christ said (verses what Christ actually said) in relation to the temple (His body) even Paul uses the same wording, concerning the raising up of Christ (in respects to themselves being found false witnesses) however they were testifying in sync with Christ. Whereas (contrarywise) the false witnesses spake of the physical temple (which took so long to build) when it come to the destroying and raising up of the temple (His body).

earagun · Nov 23, 2011

DaLeKo said:
Where did I say that we are not to check what various theologians have said about the Word of God? My point was not that we are to blindly accept the commentary of orthodox theologians as truth, but simply that their comments, especially those that line up with what the church has said is true, should be considered as such until we can prove otherwise. If you believe theologians are to always be considered wrong in everything they say, why are you defending Luther?

I'm not defending Luther, just pointing out blatant error is easily seen in the light of scripture. Also the four Empires have been used since .....forever, and theologians just took it for granted the empires were the four kingdoms, but in light of scripture they don't fit the prophetic words, Median Persia was not INFERIOR! Greece did not rule the whole world, and the four generals who theologians say are in Daniel 11 do not fit the historical record of what is written in the bible. The biggest red flag none of this works is they all have to be around when Christ returns, because He destroys them "At the same time" the gold the silver the bronze and the clay mixed with iron are broken to pieces at the same time.......Then think realistically when Christ returns, what is His biggest obstacle the Russians, China? or some other world power, what has been God's greatest enemy.....false religions! from beginning of the bible (Babel)to the end, its always been about false gods and religions, the final beast is a conglamoration of all false religions, minus the harlot, she was only used to get where they needed to go, once they are strong enough, she will be destroyed, because they hate her (she is the one Jesus calls to "come out of her my people".....there's good people deceived in her appearence

St_Worm2 · Nov 23, 2011

InSpiritInTruth said:
What temple might that be? The one where the dome of the rock now sits?

Is that the Holy Place you are talking about? Where Gods people are to stand? Please, think about what you are saying.

Yes, the new Jewish Temple will stand (as best we are able to discern) where Herod's Temple stood, where the Dome of the Rock now stands. That is the place that Jewish Temple worship will be reinstituted and it is in that new Temple that the Antichrist will establish his short-lived reign.

InSpiritInTruth · Nov 23, 2011

Fireinfolding said:
Yeah, if you do a search on "false witnesses" you can also see what their testimony of what they "heard" Christ said (verses what Christ actually said) in relation to the temple (His body)

Amen Sister, and like the shoes(man-made covering for the feet) the stones that construct the Lords Temple(Body of Christ) shall be made of whole stones, untouched by any man made doctrine(tools.)

Deuteronomy 27:5
And there shalt thou build an altar unto the LORD thy God, an altar of stones: thou shalt not lift up any iron tool upon them.

1 Kings 6:7
And the house, when it was in building, was built of stone made ready before it was brought thither: so that there was neither hammer nor axe nor any tool of iron heard in the house, while it was in building.

Deuteronomy 27:6;"Thou shalt build the altar of the Lord thy God of whole stones..."

Joshua 8:31;"As Moses the servant of the Lord commanded the children of Israel, as it is written in the book of the law of Moses, an altar of whole stones, over which no man has lift up any iron:"

It ain't made with the hands of man!

1 Peter 2:5;"You also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ."

Missed you girl friend, Peace.

InSpiritInTruth · Nov 23, 2011

DaLeKo said:
Yes, the new Jewish Temple will stand (as best we are able to discern) where Herod's Temple stood, where the Dome of the Rock now stands. That is the place that Jewish Temple worship will be reinstituted and it is in that new Temple that the Antichrist will establish his short-lived reign.

Revelation 2:9
I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Revelation 3:9
Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Just as the Lords spiritual House is made up of believers in Jesus Christ, Satan's house is made up of non-believers.

http://www.christianforums.com/passage/?search=Revelation+3:8-10&version=KJV

Fireinfolding · Nov 23, 2011

InSpiritInTruth said:
Fireinfolding said:

Yeah, if you do a search on "false witnesses" you can also see what their testimony of what they "heard" Christ said (verses what Christ actually said) in relation to the temple (His body)

Amen Sister, and like the shoes(man-made covering for the feet) the stones that construct the Lords Temple(Body of Christ) shall be made of whole stones, untouched by any man made doctrine(tools.)

Deuteronomy 27:5
And there shalt thou build an altar unto the LORD thy God, an altar of stones: thou shalt not lift up any iron tool upon them.

1 Kings 6:7
And the house, when it was in building, was built of stone made ready before it was brought thither: so that there was neither hammer nor axe nor any tool of iron heard in the house, while it was in building.

Deuteronomy 27:6;"Thou shalt build the altar of the Lord thy God of whole stones..."

Joshua 8:31;"As Moses the servant of the Lord commanded the children of Israel, as it is written in the book of the law of Moses, an altar of whole stones, over which no man has lift up any iron:"

It ain't made with the hands of man!

1 Peter 2:5;"You also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ."

Missed you girl friend, Peace.

Click to expand...

I was just about to post the last verse you posted when I read you posted it in the end (in summing it all up)

Beautifully put SpiritInTruth! You always do that and you leave no room for adding! YOURE SO NO FUN!!

Im so busting your choppers bro

I missed you too bro! Been cooking up a storm here, got timers going off, dishes to do...stuff like that (not my favorite pastime for sure).

Just me and the hubby though, but he sure eats alot (all by his lonesome!)

God bless you bro!

InSpiritInTruth · Nov 23, 2011

Fireinfolding said:
InSpiritInTruth said:

I was just about to post the last verse you posted when I read you posted it in the end (in summing it all up)

Beautifully put SpiritInTruth! You always do that and you leave no room for adding! YOURE SO NO FUN!!

Im so busting your choppers bro

I missed you too bro! Been cooking up a storm here, got timers going off, dishes to do...stuff like that (not my favorite pastime for sure).

Just me and the hubby though, but he sure eats alot (all by his lonesome!)

God bless you bro!

Click to expand...

The fact that he eats alot is a good indication of the skills of the chef.

I'll be spending the day away visiting with my mom tomorrow, wish you and yours a happy day of thanksgiving. God bless.

Fireinfolding · Nov 23, 2011

InSpiritInTruth said:
The fact that he eats alot is a good indication of the skills of the chef.

I'll be spending the day away visiting with my mom tomorrow, wish you and yours a happy day of thanksgiving. God bless.

I am offically done cooking this day

I told my husband what you said (so that maybe he might be inspired to pick up a spatula or something) it was a no go bro. He just likes eating, not interested in the cooking part He's been off all week (I have been catering to him) when he's off, Im at work.

And thank you bro, you and yours have a wonderful thanksgiving too. Dont eat too much turkey (makes you tired) unless its just eating way too much that does that (I think both) lol

God bless you!

John Stefanyszyn · Nov 23, 2011

Mr. DaLeko,
re..."if that were possible"....
You are implying that these translated words say that it is impossible for the elect to be deceived.

Why would Christ give us repetitive warnings if He knew that we could not be deceived?

The Greek words in this scripture (ει δυνατο&#957 are saying "since powerful / mighty / able".....in other words that this deception will be so powerful and mighty as to be able to deceive the elect....and therefore Christ is giving us warning to be on our guard not to be drawn to and embrace this deception because its perceived righteousness will cause the elect to follow and embrace it before and above the first love, i.e. Christ and the One truth of God....making Christ and God into a religion among religions.

The words of God in revelations also support this, since Christ gives warnings to the seven types of His "followers" to repent and overcome the belief and ways that they have compromised with and added to and distorted the Truth of Christ.
He also tells us to reject the mark, name, and number of the beast....to watch against this.
He also gave warning that He will reject those who will say to Him "Lord, Lord" and who live according to lawlessness. This shows that many "Christians" will embrace the image of the beast while believing that they are religious "Christians".

He also said that the true followers, who confess Him as the Son of the One and Only Creator God , will be killed by people claiming this action to be for the "Name of God".

This deception is capable of deceiving the "elect" because this "deception" is not perceived as a deception but as righteousness and a path for man's peace, unity, and prosperity.

There is only one world belief that all men, cultures, religions, and leaders embrace above all other beliefs...it is the belief in freedom of rights and religion, universal and inter-faith values.
....the "god of fortresses".

It may not seem as a deception to you and other Christians, but this belief also says that it is right for all religions and gods to exist and to be worshipped.

...but there is Only One Truth...Christ and Our Father the Creator.

dana b · Nov 26, 2011

DaLeKo said:
Yes, the new Jewish Temple will stand (as best we are able to discern) where Herod's Temple stood, where the Dome of the Rock now stands. That is the place that Jewish Temple worship will be reinstituted and it is in that new Temple that the Antichrist will establish his short-lived reign.

"And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him." Dan.11;45

dana b · Nov 26, 2011

DaLeKo said:
The, "Holy Place", in this case, is referring to the Temple in Jerusalem during the Tribulation period. It is there, about 3.5 years into the Tribulation, that the Antichrist will establish himself as world dictator, bring an end to the regular temple sacrifices/services (which had been reinstituted at the beginning of the Tribulation), and set up an image of himself in the Temple to be worshiped as God (see 2 Thess 2:2-4 & Rev 13:14-15).

The "abomination that causes desolation" was spoken of first in the Book of Daniel (see Dan 9:27 & 12:11).

--David

So according to your above interpretation we should all run there and "stand there." Jesus told us to in Matt.24;15

"And when ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the Prophet, stand in the Holy Place,..."

Thats why I interpret it as the Garden of vegatables in each our own yards. Exactly where Adam and Eve were placed before they left. Or else buy your tickets folks, I hope they have enough lodging over there!

St_Worm2 · Nov 26, 2011

dana b said:
So according to your above interpretation we should all run there and "stand there." Jesus told us to in Matt.24;15

"And when ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the Prophet, stand in the Holy Place,..."

Thats why I interpret it as the Garden of vegatables in each our own yards. Exactly where Adam and Eve were placed before they left. Or else buy your tickets folks, I hope they have enough lodging over there!

Hi Dana, now I understand the problem (at least, I think I do). Matthew 24:15 in the AV would probably be a little easier to understand if it was translated the way many of the other translations render it, "when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the Prophet, STANDING in the Holy place ..." (NASB, ESV, NKJV, etc.)

This is not a command for the people of Judea to gather and stand in the "Holy Place" of the Temple (or in a holy vegetable garden, for that matter). The Bible (KJV or otherwise) is telling these Christians of Tribulation period Judea to flee to the mountains when they see the Antichrist (or perhaps better, his image) "standing" in the "Holy Place" (because of the terrible events which are about to take place there).

If you are an AV only person, then looking for a parallel verse to Matthew 24:15 in the King James might be helpful too. From Mark we read,

But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains" Mark 13:14 KJV

Finally, when God established the Jews as His people following the Exodus, He told them to build a Tabernacle to worship Him in. It looked something like this: The Tabernacle

The area housed inside the tent was called the Holy of Holies where the Mercy Seat and the Ark of Covenant rested, and where God Himself met with the high priest once a year. The area just outside the Holy of Holies, where the table for the showbread, the golden lampstand, and the alter of incense rested, was called the "Holy Place". Granted, the more permanent stone Temples of Solomon and Herod were certainly more grandiose and fancy than this mobile Tabernacle, but this is still the place that both Christ and Daniel refer to as the "Holy Place" ... simply because that is what it was called (whether it was housed inside a tent or, later, a stone structure).

Here's a diagram of Herod's Temple. Notice where the "Holy Place" is (just outside the H of H or Holy of Holies). After the next Temple is built, this is the place where the image of the Antichrist will "stand" and be worshiped.

Yours and His,
David

dana b · Nov 26, 2011

Thankyou very much for pointing this out to me David. I am a KJV only reader, but i should have seen Mark 13;14! I really appreciate it. Daniel b

Jedidia · Nov 26, 2011

DaLeKo said:
Hi pdehart, which 'theologians' are you talking about? Everyone of them I have read interprets, "The Holy Place", in Matt 24, as being the Temple in Jerusalem. Also, don't forget that the "Jews" knew the Bible because it was read to them and interpreted for them by their own "theologians".

I'm not directing this comment at you personally, but I am continually amazed at the demonizing of those who make it their life's work to study and help others know and understand God's Word more accurately here at CF. Should something be considered wrong simply because St. Augustine said it? Should it not be instead that we take the interpretation of the Scriptures made by our orthodox theologians and church doctors as the truth unless we can otherwise prove them wrong?

Sorry! I know my comments are off topic, but I've felt for some time that this was a subject that needed to be addressed.

Yours and His,
David

Keep in mind that the jewish "theologians" were constantly talking about Rabbi so-n-so said this and Rabbi so-n-so said that and through that they were also constantly updating their understanding of the scriptures. It irks me that the church father's interpretations are venerated to the point of being written in stone when this means was never used by jewish scholars.

Jedidia · Nov 26, 2011

earagun said:
Sir considering what we have written in the bible we see from the earliest beginnings of the church that error was at the door, even the apostle Peter if not stopped could of led the whole church to follow the circumcision group if not abruptly stopped by the apostle Paul, just figuring early church figures must be correct without lining it up against what we have written in the bible is not a very good idea. Its very likely that error has crept in, we are even warned that it would!, now when we see some of the error, as did Luther it must be exposed and the truth of God's word will put a light on it........needless to say Luther had further to go, and more to expose

Lutherans and Calvanists are still very boxed in imo. Not to say that we should ever go outside of scripture but we shouldn't ignor some scripture to promote others. Sorry if this has led off topic.

The Holy Place that Joshua saw was the captain of our salvation.

Fireinfolding · Nov 26, 2011

So much for knowledge shall increased, but rather, knowledge shall be stagnant I'm guessing.

Jedidia · Nov 26, 2011

"why did the captain of the Lord's army say that He was neither for or against Joshua" and why does Jesus say that some have cast out demons in His name but He never knew them? Not all have the wedding apparel on that show up at the marraige supper? There are numerous references to the Holy Place being desecrated. And they seem to all be around the Kingdom that Jesus has introduced. From the time of John the Baptist till now the kingdom of heaven is being taken by violence, Jesus said.

St_Worm2 · Nov 26, 2011

Jedidia said:
Lutherans and Calvanists are still very boxed in imo. Not to say that we should ever go outside of scripture but we shouldn't ignor some scripture to promote others. Sorry if this has led off topic.

The Holy Place that Joshua saw was the captain of our salvation.

OK, I'll bite, what do you mean when you say that Lutherans and Calvinists are "boxed in"?

Thanks!

--David

Jedidia · Nov 26, 2011

DaLeKo said:
OK, I'll bite, what do you mean when you say that Lutherans and Calvinists are "boxed in"?

Thanks!

--David

imo They both see no reason to move outside their ways of thinking to explore different theories. When they do they generally move on to different denominations to explore that. Which are in their own boxes per sae. I'm not calling down the denominations but only the mindset that brings denominational thinking into an equation. Sorry if I offended.That wasn't the intent. And I'm also sure it wasn't anyone's intention to bring denominational beliefs in either.

What this thread has pointed out is how the Judaists viewed the Holy Place ( for one thing.) But the tabernacle was a shadow of what was to come. Christ. He is the altar , the lavar that washes, the bread, the light, the golden altar, all those things.

Then the thread has pointed out those who are abiding in Christ. Most prophets of old missed the time of the church like Daniel's 7th week. Yet most saw beyond that like seeing two mountains but not seeing the valley in between.

Others have refered to Revelations/Ezekial/Daniel refering to the millinium's temple While some say that it will go full circle back to the Jews rebuilding of the temple.

I think that all of them are right. The Judaists, the puritists, those who look to the things to be fulfilled.
Was, is and is to come.

InSpiritInTruth · Nov 27, 2011

Jedidia said:
imo They both see no reason to move outside their ways of thinking to explore different theories. When they do they generally move on to different denominations to explore that. Which are in their own boxes per sae. I'm not calling down the denominations but only the mindset that brings denominational thinking into an equation. Sorry if I offended.That wasn't the intent. And I'm also sure it wasn't anyone's intention to bring denominational beliefs in either.

What this thread has pointed out is how the Judaists viewed the Holy Place ( for one thing.) But the tabernacle was a shadow of what was to come. Christ. He is the altar , the lavar that washes, the bread, the light, the golden altar, all those things.

Then the thread has pointed out those who are abiding in Christ. Most prophets of old missed the time of the church like Daniel's 7th week. Yet most saw beyond that like seeing two mountains but not seeing the valley in between.

Others have refered to Revelations/Ezekial/Daniel refering to the millinium's temple While some say that it will go full circle back to the Jews rebuilding of the temple.

I think that all of them are right. The Judaists, the puritists, those who look to the things to be fulfilled.
Was, is and is to come.

It is always refreshing to see and hear, when someone else also sees and hears the deeper spiritual message given in the scriptures, over that given in the flesh(outward appearance) of the scriptures.

Just as many in the man-made church today still have that fleshy veil covering up their minds from seeing those spiritual things, which can only be discerned by way of the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
http://www.christianforums.com/passage/?search=1 Corinthians+2:12-14&version=KJV

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