Staff and Member discussion thread.

anisavta · Mar 21, 2012

Tishri1 said:
It wasn't the speakers original teaching but the power point he was using to teach off of that Ani and I saw so I guess it was Doug Friedman? The original author of the power point......his teaching was very powerful against judging the Torah obedient believers....Ani wrote the web addy down lets ask her....I'm sure it's the same source

Before I forget - I haven't even begun to catch up on today's post and I have to work on my book edit today!!! But here's the addy:
The Mosaic Laws
And the seminar was good. I am Torah observant (prepares for fiery darts to be thrown at me) and I went into the class with reservations. He did NOT disregard Torah observance. What he did was show which ones we can observe and which ones, due to no Temple, male or female, governmental changes etc we cannot. And I would encourage all who find this topic important, to do the chart that is available on the website.

anisavta · Mar 21, 2012

Avodat said:
Unsubscribing. If I want this level of hassle I'll call a church meeting!

Will the last person standing remember to switch off the lights and bolt the door when they leave.

Qnts2 · Mar 21, 2012

pdudgeon said:
somehow what i am saying here in this forum over the last several days is just consistantly not getting thru, is being misinterpreted, and quite frankly is being twisted to an entirely different meaning on multiple occasions by multiple members, than what i have plainly stated.

and i'm sitting here not really sure why that is happening.

so could everyone here please pay closer attention to what it is that you are responding to, and not respond from your gut reactions?
we might get a but further along if we could have some co-operation.

Ok, I am sorry I misunderstood. I am still not sure what you were trying to say. I was trying to assist with what I thought of as better wording.

anisavta · Mar 21, 2012

sacerdote said:
Brother Templar is a Moderator in good standing but not here as part of the MJ Forum Upgrade Team. He is participating as a member here in our attempts to improve things and better get along. The members of our team which could change depending on certain variables include:

The Boss Lady: Tishri1
Team Supervisor: Mark
Supervisor Trainee: Pam
Moderator: Tanya
David: Chaplain, cook, and eater of fine baked goods

If you don't know these folks screen names I can translate them for you. We all have experience both on the board and in forum upgrades. And we care about you, each other and the board (CF). You may pm any of us at any time. Some of us have messenger and skype at our disposal. Shalom.

And David - if you want to pass along some of those fine baked goods - well I think that would be great!

Qnts2 · Mar 21, 2012

mpossoff said:
Right seen by others such as an organizational website

You raise an interesting point that being reform would be the best way to be all inclusive. Because as we both said before being Jewish is an all wrapped up package. You can be a Jew but only keep the High Holy days and other but you still identify member if the Jewish people.

The question is, is there such a thing how to be Jewish? Is it Messianic Judaism job to teach a Jewish believer how to be Jewish meaning more levels of observance after they get in? I say no it's Yeshua that matters.

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Henaynei · Mar 21, 2012

Qnts2 said:
Of course the issue with the Talmud is:

Pirkei Avot 1:1 Moses received the Torah from Sinai and gave it over to Joshua. Joshua gave it over to the Elders, the Elders to the Prophets, and the Prophets gave it over to the Men of the Great Assembly. They [the Men of the Great Assembly] would always say these three things: Be cautious in judgment. Establish many pupils. And make a fence around the Torah.

It was the fence around the Torah, the law, which Jesus warned against. Especially when this fence actually violated the law or put unnecessary burdens on the people.

Not so fast

Messiah Yeshua was not nearly as Negative about halakah/Rabbinic rulings on the Law as you might suppose.

This, following, is Messiah Yeshua giving His halakah in contemporary rabbinic fashion. Christians call this the Sermon on the Mount.

Matthew 5:17-44
"Don't think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete. 18 Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the Torah- not until everything that must happen has happened. 19 So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness is far greater than that of the Torah- teachers and P'rushim, you will certainly not enter the Kingdom of Heaven!
21" You have heard that our fathers were told, 'Do not murder,' and that anyone who commits murder will be subject to judgment. 22 But I tell you that anyone who nurses anger against his brother will be subject to judgment; that whoever calls his brother, 'You good- for- nothing!' will be brought before the Sanhedrin; that whoever says, 'Fool!' incurs the penalty of burning in the fire of Gei- Hinnom! 23 So if you are offering your gift at the Temple altar and you remember there that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift where it is by the altar, and go, make peace with your brother. Then come back and offer your gift. 25 If someone sues you, come to terms with him quickly, while you and he are on the way to court; or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer of the court, and you may be thrown in jail! 26 Yes indeed! I tell you, you will certainly not get out until you have paid the last penny.
27 "You have heard that our fathers were told, 'Do not commit adultery.' 28 But I tell you that a man who even looks at a woman with the purpose of lusting after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye makes you sin, gouge it out and throw it away! Better that you should lose one part of you than have your whole body thrown into Gei- Hinnom. 30 And if your right hand makes you sin, cut it off and throw it away! Better that you should lose one part of you than have your whole body thrown into Gei- Hinnom.
31" It was said, 'Whoever divorces his wife must give her a get.' 32 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of fornication, makes her an adulteress; and that anyone who marries a divorcee commits adultery.
33 "Again, you have heard that our fathers were told, 'Do not break your oath,' and 'Keep your vows to ADONAI.' 34 But I tell you not to swear at all- not 'by heaven,' because it is God's throne; 35 not 'by the earth,' because it is his footstool; and not 'by Yerushalayim,' because it is the city of the Great King. 36 And don't swear by your head, because you can't make a single hair white or black. 37 Just let your 'Yes' be a simple 'Yes,' and your 'No' a simple 'No'; anything more than this has its origin in evil.
38" You have heard that our fathers were told, 'Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.' 39 But I tell you not to stand up against someone who does you wrong. On the contrary, if someone hits you on the right cheek, let him hit you on the left cheek too! 40 If someone wants to sue you for your shirt, let him have your coat as well! 41 And if a soldier forces you to carry his pack for one mile, carry it for two! 42 When someone asks you for something, give it to him; when someone wants to borrow something from you, lend it to him.
43 "You have heard that our fathers were told, 'Love your neighbor- and hate your enemy.' 44 But I tell you, love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you!

This is Messiah Yeshua commanding His listeners to actually follow the rulings of the Rabbis, just not with the same kavanah of some of the P'rushim.

Matthew 23:1-3
Chapter 23
1 Then Yeshua addressed the crowds and his talmidim: 2 "The Torah- teachers and the P'rushim," he said, "sit in the seat of Moshe. 3 So whatever they tell you, take care to do it. But don't do what they do, because they talk but don't act!

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

Chaplain David · Mar 21, 2012

talmidim said:
Yes David, things are going better. And thank you for all of your help in this. You must feel like a supply clerk assigned to a recon team by now. The light kevlar only offers so much protection.

Yes Brother Talmidim. Yet we have varying views even staff. Thank you for yours. And as far as the light kevlar, glad we're just using rubber bullets and bean bags lol.

Shalom to you and yours.

Qnts2 · Mar 21, 2012

Henaynei said:
Not so fast

Messiah Yeshua was not nearly as Negative about halakah/Rabbinic rulings on the Law as you might suppose.

Let me gather a few scripture references - brb

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

I agree. Yeshua often engaged in traditions and did not oppose these things as long as they did not go against scripture. While Jesus was telling the people to obey those who sat on Moses seat (the law said one could not oppose or ignore a judges or priest ruling), do not do as they do.

But Yeshua did heavily criticize those Rabbinic rulings (judges) which 'made the law of no effect' or 'laid heavy burdens' on the people.

By the time much of the Talmud was written, it is fairly easy to argue that the courts were not according to the law, or were making rulings above their authority (absence of High Priest). (After Yavneh)

anisavta · Mar 21, 2012

Qnts2 said:
Actually, most Messianic Jews do not use the term Torah and actually mean the Mosaic law.
Not a true statement
That is just plain confusing. And more uniquely a term used in One Law but not generalized in Messianic Judaism.
Not a true statement

From the MJAA site:

The MJAA Believes: That the BIBLE, consisting of the Tenach (Old Covenant/Testament) and the later writings commonly known as the B'rit Hadasha (New Testament/Covenant), is the only infallible and authoritative word of God. We recognize its divine inspiration, and accept its teachings as our final authority in all matters of faith and practice (Deuteronomy 6:4-9; Proverbs 3:1-6; Psalm 119:89, 105; Isaiah 48:12-16; Romans 8:14-17; II Timothy 2:15, 3:16-17).

Messianic Jewish people hold the Torah in high respect, but that does not mean Messianic Jewish people believe the Mosaic law carried forward as a unit into the New Covenant.
Not a true statement

MJ does practice Jewish tradition, but that is one of the differences in Messianic Judaism. It is based on Jewish culture, and worship is more Jewish. It is a comfortable place for Jewish believers. Torah and tradition are intertwined but Torah does not mean Mosaic law/covenant. It means Torah, the five books of Moses.
Not a true statement

When you have a people who were raised in the Torah as the definition of their religious beliefs, the Torah will be held in high regard. The Torah is the words of God. The Nach is the revelation of God and the NT is the words and revelation of God.

Unlike people who come to know Yeshua from other religions, such a Buddhism, the basis of their belief is unbiblical. Jewish people whose basis of belief is biblical, the only real turning a Jewish person does in their belief is turn from unbelief in Jesus as the Messiah to belief in Jesus the Messiah. Even the Messiah is a Jewish belief but Judaism rejected and did not recognize Yeshua as the Messiah, which was wrong. So, Jewish believers are never anti-Torah. Jewish believers see changes in the Mosaic law and the New Covenant, but that never makes a Jewish believer anti-Torah.

From the MJAA:

Messianic Judaism is a Biblically based movement of people who, as committed Jews, believe in Yeshua (Jesus) as the Jewish Messiah of Israel of whom the Jewish Law and Prophets spoke.

To many this seems a glaring contradiction. Christians are Christians, Jews are decidedly not Christian. So goes the understanding that has prevailed through nearly two thousand years of history.
Messianic Jews call this a mistaken - and even anti-Scriptural - understanding. Historical and Biblical evidence demonstrates that following Yeshua was initially an entirely Jewish concept. Decades upon decades of persecution, division, and confused theology all contributed to the dichotomy between Jews and believers in Yeshua that many take for granted today.

I know you attend a large Messianic synagogue but being one of the largest does not mean it is representative of the beliefs of Messianic Judaism as a whole, or defines Messianic Judaism as a whole. It means that your Messianic synagogue, if it is affiliated with the MJAA or the UMJC, and the AMC, probably falls somewhere within the spectrum of Messianic Judaism.

Actually, there are larger groups and synagogues which call themselves Messianic. These which are larger are almost all Gentile, and are a part of other groups like Two House or originated as Two House.
Questionable. MJAA is one of the largest if not the largest in Messianic Judiasm. There are lots of other fringe Gentile MJ organizations but they are small.

Tim Hegg is not considered to be a Messianic Judaism teacher as the largest Messianic Judaism organizations have written against his theology.
That has changed.
Tim Hegg left FFOZ because FFOZ moved from outside of Messianic Judaism to working with Messianic Judaism.

Qnts your statements are general and some are just not true. It would do you justice if you prefaced them with IMO.

pdudgeon · Mar 21, 2012

anisavta said:
And David - if you want to pass along some of those fine baked goods - well I think that would be great!

I have 2 homemade from scratch steel-cut Irish oatmeal and bananna muffins..who want's em?

also have 3 bowls full of homemade mexican chicken soup.

someone out there must be hungry............

etZion · Mar 21, 2012

pdudgeon said:
I have 2 homemade from scratch steel-cut Irish oatmeal and bananna muffins..who want's em?

also have 3 bowls full of homemade mexican chicken soup.

someone out there must be hungry............

If I was not hungry, I am now...

anisavta · Mar 21, 2012

Pass it on!! I know discussion goes so much better with food. Perhaps we should all sit down with a nice hot bowl of matzo ball soup and a piece of pie when we post.

Qnts2 · Mar 21, 2012

anisavta said:
Qnts your statements are general and some are just not true. It would do you justice if you prefaced them with IMO.

Ok, they are my opinion from my experience with people from many different Messianic Judaism organizations and congregations. But IMO, what you said is 'not true', is also your opinion.

I do try to stay more general when I am speaking about a wide range of Messianic Judaism synagogues and people. And, the only place I hear 'Torah' used when people don't really mean the Torah but mean the Mosaic law, is among Two House, CTOMC, and some in MBI used to or other groups like that. I always found it confusing as their use of Torah seemed inconsistent and foreign.

In Judaism, we talked about mitzvot, or being frum, or Shomer ????. Or living a Jewish lifestyle.

Messianic Jewboy · Mar 21, 2012

anisavta said:
Before I forget - I haven't even begun to catch up on today's post and I have to work on my book edit today!!! But here's the addy:
The Mosaic Laws
And the seminar was good. I am Torah observant (prepares for fiery darts to be thrown at me) and I went into the class with reservations. He did NOT disregardful Torah observance. What he did was show which ones we can observe and which ones, due to no Temple, male or female, governmental changes etc we can cannot. And I would encourage all who find this topic important, to do the chart that is available on the website.

I listened to the audio and he showed the differences between believers, Messianic believers and Torah positive Messianic believers. Exactly like the other video that got ripped.

He said that most Torah positive Messianic believers doesn't recite the Shema in the morning from his 17 years experience as well as tefillin etc.as examples.

Interesting I'm starting to maybe get an understanding about the quote I posted from the believer who said we are not under the rule. It's not about being ruled it's about the greatest commandment anyway. Difference of being ruled or doing so out of love. The ones that say we are no longer ruled by the Law of Moses say just that we are not ruled but we do it because out of love.

We are not very different is the moral of the story. We agree on almost all of them anyway.

He then refers to a Rabbi with a capitol r what's the greatest commandment we should follow.

We should ALL listen to the end of the sermon. We should ALL love one another. We all have different views. As most Messianic leaders/rabbi's he doesn't tell believers how to follow the Laws.

Great audio thanks!

etZion · Mar 21, 2012

mpossoff said:
You raise an interesting point that being reform would be the best way to be all inclusive. Because as we both said before being Jewish is an all wrapped up package. You can be a Jew but only keep the High Holy days and other but you still identify member if the Jewish people.

I disagree, I came to the Messianic movement, while in Israel, being taught by Messianic Jews, some of who did not fit at all in some of the Messianic Congregations in Israel, do to them not being able to meet their theological beliefs, such as Orthodox Messianic, more and more there are Messianic Congregations popping up that fit a Orthodox atmosphere, but at the time, they simply continued in their non-'Messianic' Orthodox community, and continuing to attend Orthodox Yeshiva's and Synagogues, because there was no Messianic home for them and they felt much more at home among their Orthodox brethren. So the reform can only go so far, in my opinion, reform would be better for all the Messianic Jews, who love their Jewish culture, but want to maintain their Christian theology.

The question is, is there such a thing how to be Jewish? Is it Messianic Judaism job to teach a Jewish believer how to be Jewish meaning more levels of observance after they get in? I say no it's Yeshua that matters.

I say yes, in reality, I think what you are proposing is a false dichotomy, or at least it sounds that way: "Yeshua matters, not God's Law..." Even though that might not be what you mean, it definitely seems that way. Moses writes all about Yeshua, that was Yeshua's own words, not mine.

I hear people say, we focus on Yeshua, not the Law... It is such a strange thing to hear, what that translates to me is: "Yeshua and God's Law are not compatible, so Yeshua is who we should seek, not God's Law"...

For me, being a seeker of Torah observance, my main focus is Yeshua, as I try to imitate Him, who by the way, is the Greatest Jew who has ever walked the face of the planet and the greatest Torah keeper to have ever existed. I don't see that as incompatible, in fact, I look at it the complete opposite... If one teaches Yeshua, without teaching the Torah, and the commandments, one is lacking a proper understanding of who Yeshua is, what He did, what the whole plan will be. etc.

Conclusion:

We can't separate Yeshua from the Word of God, or we would have to create a new religion, and most likely call it Christianity... I joke! On a serious note, we will have a distorted message, which will produce a different end result, thus a different Yeshua.

Desert Rose · Mar 21, 2012

anisavta said:
Pass it on!! I know discussion goes so much better with food. Perhaps we should all sit down with a nice hot bowl of matzo ball soup and a piece of pie when we post.

NOW the discussion is taking on a good turn!

Let's be diverse, live and let live.

Amen, Easydoesit, amen.

Steve Petersen · Mar 21, 2012

Unsubbing. This is pointless.

Lulav · Mar 21, 2012

The Templar said:
Interesting and noted, except you should have also quoted the loving post this was in response to... to be fair.

Now you are telling the members how they should post and that they aren't being fair?

Jerushabelle said:
Really?... then what is wrong with putting up the seal of Jerusalem as the Messianic icon? It is what is universally accepted as representative of Messianic Judaism.

Universally? Do you know the history of this symbol? Just because someone today has named it the 'grafted in' symbol does not mean that's what it originally stood for. It was found in Jerusalem, not outside of Judea where the Gentile churches were located.

Jerushabelle said:
And can we get rid of the Non-trinitarian Messianic icon? It flies in the face of CF admission rules. If I could not be granted a grafted in icon, so that people would recognize me as a non-Jewish believer, why should someone be able to proclaim that they don't agree with the Trinity?

Now you not only want your very own icon, but want to do away with another that we've had for many years because you don't like it?

Jerushabelle said:
Yes, I understand that some in Messianism and indeed Messianism itself has a slightly different perspective of the Trinity than others in the Body but one universal icon would go a long way to supporting unity. Sister Qnts2 and I agree that Torah is not the whole shebang when it comes to Messianism (and yes, I know that some feel that is anti-Torah) and that is why it would be better to have the universally accepted seal of Jerusalem as the Messianic icon and the wording should be changed in the SoP. If you're wanting to straighten things out, maybe you should start from the ground up and allow all to have a piece of the playing field under a universal banner?

It seems that you and 'sister Qnts' have quite an agenda for this forum. Change the name, change the icons, make new icons that you approve of........

Tishri1 said:
As far as that video, Ani and I were in class with the author of that info(the original guy)and both of us could see the teaching as a way to unite MJs not divide them, your new info puts a spin on the info not intended for his original audience, that is for sure......my question is what do you want? And what would be fair?

I'm confused Tish, what is 'my new info'

Tishri1 said:
Should folks who do not observe Torah to the degree you do have to leave this place? Even if they attend MJ congregations?

Where did I say anyone had to leave? Why the animosity? Where did I compare anyone's Torah observance? I am not responsible for anyone's observance but my own. I think what many here are saying though is that we would like this one forum to be free from the condemnation that comes on all the other forums when you even have a Torah scroll. That you even keep Shabbat, that you eat kosher foods. Is that too much to ask?

Tishri1 said:
Or allow them to stay but give them funny names that they will have to wear so we know they are the ones not observing Torah to the same level?

This is really too much. Where did I suggest giving anyone funny names? By this statement you are basically comparing me to those who forced yellow stars on our people and I really don't appreciate that. I never said anything such as you are suggesting.

Tishri1 said:
Or can we simply ask for respect to those who do observe Torah and not teach, or debate against its observance in this place?

That's all I have been saying and I think others too.

This question is for everyone[/quote] Not sure which question was for everyone, but they all sounded like they were directed towards me, and with hostility and exasperation by the sound of it, I hope I'm wrong......

Tishri1 said:
Originally Posted by Lulav

Yes, I get what you mean but maybe this is needed to get some things out that have been hidden. I see two sides here and my suggestion is that we have two forums.

1. Mainstream Messianic Judaism for Jews that believe in Yeshua as Messiah and Gentiles who have a Orpah Calling.

2. Messianic Remnant- Followers of first century Judaism as defined by Yeshua for Jewish believers and Gentiles with a Ruth calling.

Remember all the times past we segregated our group...every time it killed the forums

I don't see this as segregation, the two can post in peace as they agree. I thought this was the point of the thread?

It is plain to see that there are two distinct groups here. Just as Naomi had two daughters in law. This is the teachings I've heard in MJ.

Also I would like to mention that there are two members missing right now that should be allowed to post their position and points on this thread.
Visionary is missing (and you know why) and right now is in a Tornado warning and I hope is OK since we won't be able to hear for awhile. And Yedida is in the middle of a move and doesn't have internet right now.

You say it killed the forums, but the forum as it stands now is so 'lively' because of the debate between the two. Perhaps instead of a MJ only tag, maybe what's needed is a 'Soft Debate only' tag. Something with a description posted in the SOP that explains that different sides can be presented but no name calling or judgement allowed.

As Qnts said, we Jews like to argue all the possibilities and see things from all angles. I think it's more about perception than anything.

pdudgeon · Mar 21, 2012

Qnts2 said:
Ok, I am sorry I misunderstood. I am still not sure what you were trying to say. I was trying to assist with what I thought of as better wording.

no problem.

i went back to find my original post #542, page 55. and from the last 2 paragraphs, this was my question:

what could be stated in the SOF though is the belief that MJ's here should actively desire to follow Torah in their lives. That would put the emphasis on the importance of Torah, and yet still leave the following as a personal responsibility done within the limits of the member's understanding and ability, G_d helping them.

what do you think? would that encompass the beliefs and practices of both sides?

to my mind the word Torah encompases not only the first 5 books of the OT but also anything that would be traditionally looked upon as requirements or wisdom needed in the Jewish life that is passed down either from the patriarchs, Rabbi's, or schools.
I realize that MJ's have different words for each area, but as i'm not familiar with those words, (and many staff aren't either) i thought it better to have a single word that encompases all of them, if that is possible.

i didn't say Torah should be worshiped because it is only the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit who are due worship. but i would think that Torah certainly is as important to MJ's both as the word of G-D and as wisdom, every day guidance, history, celebrations, etc. as the bible (OT & NT) is to Christians, and for the same reasons.

now if there are other words that need to be substituted, or if anyone can think of a better way to incorporate the idea of the place that Torah holds in the lives of MJ's, then please make a suggestion.

Yahudim · Mar 21, 2012

anisavta said:
Before I forget - I haven't even begun to catch up on today's post and I have to work on my book edit today!!! But here's the addy:
The Mosaic Laws
And the seminar was good. I am Torah observant (prepares for fiery darts to be thrown at me) and I went into the class with reservations. He did NOT disregard Torah observance. What he did was show which ones we can observe and which ones, due to no Temple, male or female, governmental changes etc we cannot. And I would encourage all who find this topic important, to do the chart that is available on the website.

Hi!

That is exactly what I found too. The web version is much better that the video that was posted of Steve Shermett's take, as summarized to his congregation. The study itself is very interesting.

I downloaded all the files including the spreadsheet. But instead of taking the test, I have been going through and comparing his summation of the mitzvah to the associated scripture listed. So I had a little bit different take than him because of how I understand the p'sh*t. Still it is very thought provoking and a great read. As soon as I finish, I'll listen to his presentation again and take the test with a greater understanding of the actual mitvahs.

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