Steve Petersen
Senior Veteran
If all it takes to go and subvert a forum is an icon change, CF is hopless.
What if we all did the same thing?
What if we all did the same thing?
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Henny, I don't think the problem is that we don't accept those on the path, or that we are trying to hurry anyone along, it's those that don't believe
1. That Gentiles should be on that path
or
2. That as a Gentile they are not in any way obligated to it. All is covered in grace and they are here to tell us how wrong we are for keeping it.
Agreed, as far as that goes.
But don't forget that we also have numerous Jews here maintaining that the Torah path is eliminated for them, as well.
I find the issue to fall out, not on ethnic lines, but on theological. If one accepts the Christian assumption that followers of Messiah have no relationship with the Torah, then one lives and believes one way. If one accepts that Torah was given for our Good, as the Torah itself declares, then one lives and believes another way.
This is why I believe there is a clear and simple demarcation between (Hebrew)-Christianity and Messianic Judaism. There are other differences, as well, but this seems to be the point of contention that keeps coming up.
Lulav said:Mishkhan was quoting my post, but it doesn't show when you quote him. Actually you should have quoted my post for this question.
I was addressing a post made by Henaynei, 'we've always affectionately called her Henny since way back!
Agreed, as far as that goes.
But don't forget that we also have numerous Jews here maintaining that the Torah path is eliminated for them, as well.
I find the issue to fall out, not on ethnic lines, but on theological. If one accepts the Christian assumption that followers of Messiah have no relationship with the Torah, then one lives and believes one way. If one accepts that Torah was given for our Good, as the Torah itself declares, then one lives and believes another way.
This is why I believe there is a clear and simple demarcation between (Hebrew)-Christianity and Messianic Judaism. There are other differences, as well, but this seems to be the point of contention that keeps coming up.
I don't know if Pat got to this or not...
The Messianic Perspective is somewhat different from most of mainstream Christianity.
The Hebrew word Torah, often translated Law, actually means Instruction, as in Instructions from G-d.
We believe that it was Only the ordainances (aka judgments) that were "nailed to the Cross," not the Torah/Law/Instructions itself. G-d said, and Yeshua reiterated, that His Torah/Law/Instruction is eternal and good.
Our debt, our just sentence of eternal death for violating G-d's Torah/Law/Instruction, was paid in full when Yeshua, totally sinless because He was always 100% obedient to G-d's Torah/Law/Instructions, died on that tree.
G-d's Torah/Law/Instruction is the perfect gift given to Israel. It is not G-d's Torah/Law/Instruction that is faulty, it is us. 1Jn 3:4 defines sin cicinctly as "transgression of the Torah/Law/Instruction." The Torah/Law/Instruction is the flawless reflection of our Pure and Holy G-d, blessed be He, in written form. We were measured against it and found wanting, full of sin and unrighteousness. That is to say, we were measured against G-d's pureness and holiness and found wanting, full of sin and unrighteousness.
We are saved by unmerited Grace, through faith as demonstrated by our desire and efforts to obey G-d eternal Torah/Law/Instructions.
"faith without works is dead, being alone..."
b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}
Wow Tish,
You really don't get it. You view that as mudslinging? Really? Against who? Did you really read what I wrote?
I watched the video. I found the on-line study. I did some research. What I found was error. What I saw was bait and switch. I watched the video that everyone oohed and aahed over, praising it for minimizing the responsibilities of the Torah observant to that of irrelevant; 'like fighting over a penny'. It was a smear.
What they didn't tell you is that all they teach is mainstream Christian doctrine with some Hebraic window dressing, not that Hebrew roots is wrong. Its just that the whole presentation was both misleading and erroneous on the most basic level. It teaches that even if you are 'Torah Positive' as they called it, you may as well quit because it doesn't matter. Torah isn't for the New Testament believer. That message is against our SoP in case you missed it. And I was outraged! That video should have never been allowed in this faith group's forum - AND THE STAFF ALL MISSED IT! One of the Mods was even demanding that we watch it. Well I did.
They may as well have said, 'It just like fighting over an inch of dirt', knowing full well that stepping back that inch puts you over the precipice.
That wasn't mudslinging Deb, it wasn't personal. That was Theatre of the Absurd and an appropriate response to that hogwash:"We believe the Law of Moses as a rule of life has been fulfilled in the Messiah and therefore believers are no longer under its' obligation or condemnation. While the Law of Moses is no longer obligatory for believers, the Law has much to teach us regarding a joyfully Jewish way of life..." The makers of the study and the video, post this on their website and paraphrase it in this video.
And you didn't see it?
Facetious sarcasm begins.
I am stunned by the amount of audacity with which you tell us that it is a fact that none of us can claim a sincere level of Torah observance?
As far as that congregation I have nothing against it, but it's beliefs go against our SOP as it now stands so what is the point in posting it?
This was a response to Anisavta, he claims to have posted here in the past, yet a look through the whole MJ forum and all I have found outside this here thread is Mod Hats and other mod work, nothing, nothing at all about these 'amazing posts'.No, I do not post here often, but have in the past. Which means you do not know me well enough to make the claims against me you have.
Sorry you missed my past posts as my comments were amazing!
Yep, I've actually been trying to work on studying the different theological views on all of this. I actually believe I could do ok in a Methodist congregation. We believe differently on a few things, but their approach is less likely to end up with me being driven out like Frankenstein's monster, with them behind holding farming equipment and torches.
And this is where some of us need to really grow and look at not just others, but ourselves and find out why we are being so reactionary to others, and why we view it that way.
I know I've come off rough around the edges over years, but a lot of my questioning and "accusatory" reactions have been because I was wrestling so terribly with the lies I had been taught, and it was a constant struggle to figure out what was what.
There aren't many opportunities for worship with the little ones I have, or for volunteering, but I am looking at our finances to make sure we are supporting people where G-d is leading us right now.
With our large homeless population, it doesn't make sense not to provide and share with our small abundance, and with the teaching we've greatly benefited from, I want to make sure we support the TV channel that has brought us such gems, so they don't go away. From there, as things improve, I'd like to be able to give to other charities. As the children grow, and my health improves, I'd like to put my money where my mouth is, and get out there and do as well as give..
Fascinating read! I've been gone all day and it's interesting to catch up. We have some who are sticking to the OP and trying to hash out a working plan. Then there are others who are bound and determined to keep the argument going by continuing to push their agenda totally ignoring the OP. Makes you wonder who wants this forum to run smoothly and who just needs a platform.
Qnts2 said:I agree with much of what you wrote.
But. I do not believe that only the 'judgements/punishments' were nailed to the cross.
The Mosaic law is one. It is mans responsibility under the Mosaic covenant. It is beautiful and true and it points to the Messiah. It can not be sorted thru, picking and choosing what applies and what doesn't. Without the punishments, which are actually quite important in the picture the law draws, the law stops being a law but becomes a suggestion. The end of the punishments end the judges and the courts, which is again much of the law simply eliminated.
Thank you David for looking out for usThank you Debi. I'll take the fully loaded one, in fact, two, sugared on the outside please lol.
During these efforts where we endeavor to help a forum improve there are always the doctrinal or spiritual disagreements. Some people often do not agree with the rules, want to change them or even implement new ones.
While these sometimes have a place and seem to be the center of attention what I have always found is the main problem in the forum is how members treat other members. Sometimes it is how members treat staff or vice versa but member to member communication that establishes the positive human relations in the forum are always what is needed to accomplish and maintain improvement and the ability to grow together as Christ wants us to.
As an example, there is an issue with Torah here. But making that the way everyone wants it is firstly impossible, and secondly not what will make this a thriving forum. I do not believe the Torah does anything by itself. It is our observance of it that is one of the keys.
What will give us the ingredients to accomplish all manner of good things is treating each other respectfully, kindly, basically as Christ wants us to treat each other.
There is nothing that we cannot discuss if it is done courteously and with listening ears. There is nothing we cannot discuss if the discussion takes place evenly and with love for our brothers and sisters.
The words from our mouths or as we do here, in writing, need (really need to be) solution oriented and not blaming. Rehashing old arguments or ripping the scabs off of old wounds is not helpful or healthy. It is in fact hurtful and makes any problem worse.
So I say, and will probably say again, let us look at and focus on the love that we have and if we do not have that love, pray on it, ask the Lord for it, ask the Lord for forgiveness, ask the Lord to get rid of any blame that may be caused by past real or perceived hurt, ask the Lord for us to help forgive each other and help each other in His name.
If we first and foremost concentrate on treating each other better and then apply this to what we are trying to achieve the outcome will be much better and we will get along better as well, and once again, that is what the Lord wants us to do.
Jesus Christ said love our neighbors as our selves. Here, in this forum we are our neighbors and must all look to His command, firm, yet gentle to do His work.
Shalom brothers and sisters.
Sacerdote (David)
Agreed.
Let's stick to the OP people or move on.
Wouldn't want to get reported for derail, would we?
Again with the posturing. I don't see naivete. I think the point is that if you break one, whichever one that is applicable, you've broken all of them. The 613 may be for a nation but we're not judged as a nation, we're judged individually.
How about goading? This is a forum Sister. Excuse me, but how do I know you're really Messianic? How do I know that Sister Tishri is Messianic or anyone here who claims to be Messianic is truly Messianic? I don't. Most folks don't even use their real names and that's okay...well, I sort of do but I had to revise mine a little because someone else already was using my real name but that's neither here nor there. It's just wrong to demand personal information or testimonies from people. Folks have a right to their privacy and still be able to post without somebody casting a shadow on them.
Again, I'm thinking this has to do with our inability to do what only Yeshua could do.
What? How? You know, I posted links to several different congregation's SoF in the past and that's the same thing that was said then. So, only the congregations that are deemed Messianic by consensus here are Messianic? Don't you think that's destructive to MJ?
Another statement aimed at me. Just use my name for pity's sake, I don't care. Listen, I never asked that you or anyone else FIRST respect the fact that I am not as Torah observant as others and I certainly did not disrespect anyone's Torah observance here. I asked for equal respect, period, and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who has and come up bupkis.
The thing that keeps escaping is that this little piece of real estate is the sole property of CF and whether we are here to enjoy it or not, by virtue of obedience or disobedience of the rules, it will still be here.
That's true Sister Tishri but that's not what has been visible in many of the posts/attitudes here and that is what Sister Qnts2 has pointed out, what I have pointed out, Brother EasyG and Brother mpossof has pointed out, what Brother ContraMundum has pointed out (although he calls it ranting which I didn't think was considering the emotionality of the subject) what Brother rsduncan has pointed out. And whatever happened to Brother NealOFS or Brother RevSTButler? Ah, there's others. I have no doubt that the folks I listed above including myself can and do find love in their hearts for people with differing faith expressions within MJ but I'm pretty sure that we all shut down understanding-wise when a certain sort of hateful, condemning, legalistic (whatever you want to call it) behavior is employed. Even Brother Netzarim who is totally anti-Paul is someone I can communicate with in a loving fashion. I know because I did in PM and one would think that if things are going to get really nasty, it's going to happen in PMs. But it didn't. It's simply a question of doing the right thing faithwise; of exemplifying the fruit of the Spirit. Everybody's got a threshold when it comes to having their buttons pushed. People need to stop pushing the buttons.
Everybody's got a threshold when it comes to having their buttons pushed. People need to stop pushing the buttons.
And I think that's why some are taking advantage of this thread to continue the theological debate instead of working on a solution. There is no fear of recourse.
Hi Ani, Hi Steve,Agreed.
Let's stick to the OP people or move on.
Wouldn't want to get reported for derail, would we?
Hau kola waste.
Livin' urban or Rez?
Buenas tardes y
ciaou bene
amba
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