St Thomas More

[WarriorAngel]

Why he was a Saint.

Saint, knight, Lord Chancellor of England, author and martyr, born in London, 7 February, 1477-78; executed at Tower Hill, 6 July, 1535.



The Lutheran controversy had now spread throughout Europe and, with some reluctance, More was drawn into it.


As chancellor it was his duty to enforce the laws against heretics and, by doing so, he provoked the attacks of Protestant writers both in his own time and since. The subject need not be discussed here, but More's attitude is patent. He agreed with the principle of the anti-heresy laws and had no hesitation in enforcing them. As he himself wrote in his "Apologia" (cap. 49) it was the vices of heretics that he hated, not their persons; and he never proceeded to extremities until he had made every effort to get those brought before him to recant. How successful he was in this is clear from the fact that only four persons suffered the supreme penalty for heresy during his whole term of office.


When alone his time was given up to prayer and penitential exercises; and he wrote a "Dialogue of Comfort Against Tribulation", treatise (unfinished) on the Passion of Christ, and many letters to his family and others.

In April and May, 1535, Cromwell visited him in person to demand his opinion of the new statutes conferring on Henry the title of Supreme Head of the Church. More refused to give any answer beyond declaring himself a faithful subject of the king. In June, Rich, the solicitor-general, held a conversation with More and, in reporting it, declared that More had denied Parliament's power to confer ecclesiastical supremacy on Henry. It was now discovered that More and Fisher, the Bishop of Rochester, had exchanged letters in prison, and a fresh inquiry was held which resulted in his being deprived of all books and writing materials, but he contrived to write to his wife and favourite daughter, Margaret, on stray scraps of paper with a charred stick or piece of coal.
On 1 July, More was indicted for high treason at Westminster Hall before a special commission of twenty. More denied the chief charges of the indictment, which was enormously long, and denounced Rich, the solicitor-general and chief witness against him as a perjuror. The jury found him guilty and he was sentenced to be hanged at Tyburn, but some days later this was changed by Henry to beheading on Tower Hill. The story of his last days on earth, as given by Roper and Cresacre More, is of the tenderest beauty and should be read in full; certainly no martyr ever surpassed him in fortitude. As Addison wrote in the Spectator (No. 349) "that innocent mirth which had been so conspicuous in his life, did not forsake him to the last . . .his death was of a piece with his life. There was nothing in it new, forced or affected. He did not look upon the severing of his head from his body as a circumstance that ought to produce any change in the disposition of his mind". The execution took place on Tower Hill "before nine of the clock" on 6 July, the body being buried in the Church of St. Peter ad vincula.


http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14689c.htm

It appears some think him a monster but every account to his life shows he loved ppl, he was amiable, and kind to others.
And even did his best not to allow ppl to die as he was Chancellor.
[These things are recorded...and avaible for reading]

Only 4 ppl died while he was in the court...
4 ppl.

Mass murderer?
No.

Patient and hopeful. Yes, the whole 'inquisitions' thing has been reported and written with obfuscation...

However; according to secular sources who also did the research, have shown the Catholic Church officials did not kill in large numbers. And that the 'reported' millions or hundreds of thousands was an impossible number.
Since they are no records for that, and all in all the total number of deaths reached around 3000 ppl [if i can remember this correctly] but what i do remember correctly is that the secular courts had more ppl killed.
AND protestants would intentionally 'blaspheme' in the court so it would be sent to the Catholic Court....because they were more lenient.
However; just as many protestants killed equally those who were Catholics, as Catholics had them killed.

I just wish the media would stop distorting things.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I love this argument - the RCC is not worse than the Protestant churches because the RCC didn't murder nearly as many folks as the Protestants said (therefore making Protestants liars, of course).

So, how many murders does it take to make one a murderer? We have here the statement that at least four murders were undertaken under the authority of Thomas More. So, then, what is the maximum number of murders one can be responsible for and still become a saint?

 

[Kristos]

I think limit is 7.

 

[simonthezealot]

I am unfamilliar with More, but find it odd that he be a (S)aint, ahh but then again I find the whole sainthood thing a tad different. We whom are in Christ are all saints too bad we don't act more like it...

 

[WarriorAngel]

Well, it was a position of being led into the revolution he really didnt want.

Perhaps God made it so T More was there and not nearly as many lives died due to his diligence to work with them rather than against them.

Of course we dont know the account or reason he finally gave up on 4 ppl.
Maybe they preferred death for their cause.

Maybe thats what they told him.

Not being there, we have no way of knowing.
But by accounts Thomas More was a kind person and congenial.

His Sainthood centered around his own martyrdom in not surrendering to the apostasy of his time.

I think the inquisitions have been grossly over exaggerated. According to scholars who reseacrhed it, they said the high number 'suuposedly killed' didnt even reside in the area at that time. I suppose they checked the census.

Even the fact it went on for quite a while, it didnt serve as a mass holocaust.
The ones who were most guilty were the secular courts.
Where the religious overseers didnt attend.

If i were to gander, i would think the 4 folks stubbornly desired martyrship.

Its best tho, not to assume. Yet i cant see someone who loved both the misformed or ignorant as much as anyone to be blood lusting.

And as we know...tales grow taller on down the line, and they give us a herioc martyrdom to ponder on. Only the lies cause anger and the fruits of them rot the society.

For instance, Protestants and Catholics dont need to be at each others throats, but they are. And when you try to ask why..the inquisitions arise as a topic.

See, lies spread are never any good. It produces rotton fruit.
But as time went on, the lies only grew until scholars bebunked them.

simon, we should strive to be Saints. I find reading about the lives of Saints and the hardships they overcame in spite of themselves is most edifying.
We know someone went thru what we did, and they persevered.

God Bless.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I am unfamilliar with More, but find it odd that he be a (S)aint, ahh but then again I find the whole sainthood thing a tad different. We whom are in Christ are all saints too bad we don't act more like it...

What is the purpose of the Saints?

So we imitate their love for God and desire to have the zeal and grace they did.

That's why they are not forgotten.

 

[Tdigaetano]

How successful he was in this is clear from the fact that only four persons suffered the supreme penalty for heresy during his whole term of office.

So who were the 4 people and what heresies did they die for?

But I guess people just like body counts instead of what causes these martyrs died for.

It just goes to show that people put a higher value on flesh then the Eternal Soul.

Which is worse 1001 people going to hell for 1 person leading them astray or 1 person going to hell, because they chose not to repent, in order to save 1000 souls from being lead astray.

 

[bbbbbbb]

If Thomas More achieved sainthood because of his martyrdom (which is an established fact) then can one say that the other four individuals who were martyred (although for reasons we don't really know or understand) should also be considered saints?

 

[Kristos]

If Thomas More achieved sainthood because of his martyrdom (which is an established fact) then can one say that the other four individuals who were martyred (although for reasons we don't really know or understand) should also be considered saints?

I suppose, by the followers of their her...way of thinking.

This is always a big sticking point in unification talks between the OO and EO because each side claims martyrs by the other and some martyrers as Saints.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I suppose, by the followers of their her...way of thinking.

This is always a big sticking point in unification talks between the OO and EO because each side claims martyrs by the other and some martyrers as Saints.

In my understanding, all martyrs are Saints.

 

[DArceri]

In my understanding, all martyrs are Saints.

Well a martyr needs to be defined as a Saint before he is classified as a martyr, right?


Does the RCC claim infallibilty to know the heart of men when they declare who is 'officially' a Saint? I am assuming they do claim infallibility since they go on to pray in confidence to these Saints....The reason I ask is I thought only God knows the heart of man?



.

 

[katholikos]

Why he was a Saint.



It appears some think him a monster but every account to his life shows he loved ppl, he was amiable, and kind to others.
And even did his best not to allow ppl to die as he was Chancellor.
[These things are recorded...and avaible for reading]

Only 4 ppl died while he was in the court...
4 ppl.

Mass murderer?
No.

Patient and hopeful. Yes, the whole 'inquisitions' thing has been reported and written with obfuscation...

However; according to secular sources who also did the research, have shown the Catholic Church officials did not kill in large numbers. And that the 'reported' millions or hundreds of thousands was an impossible number.
Since they are no records for that, and all in all the total number of deaths reached around 3000 ppl [if i can remember this correctly] but what i do remember correctly is that the secular courts had more ppl killed.
AND protestants would intentionally 'blaspheme' in the court so it would be sent to the Catholic Court....because they were more lenient.
However; just as many protestants killed equally those who were Catholics, as Catholics had them killed.

I just wish the media would stop distorting things.

.


Oooh. I dug this thread up on page two. I love Thomas Morre. I bought the movie "A Man For All Seasons." Its pretty good. You should buy it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtcWlk3cLUQ&feature=related

 

[Brennin]

As far as I am concerned, Thomas More was neither a saint nor a murderer. He was a man of his times whom I admire for remaining true to his Roman Catholic convictions, though I do not share them.

 

[lionroar0]

As far as I am concerned, Thomas More was neither a saint nor a murderer. He was a man of his times whom I admire for remaining true to his Roman Catholic convictions, though I do not share them.

I now that we have locked horns before but you have stated a very good point.

When looking at history and historical events we must try to look at it through their times. To try to be as objective as possible.

Peace

 

[katholikos]

As far as I am concerned, Thomas More was neither a saint nor a murderer. He was a man of his times whom I admire for remaining true to his Roman Catholic convictions, though I do not share them.

I suppose that the best comment we'll get out of you on the subject.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I now that we have locked horns before but you have stated a very good point.

When looking at history and historical events we must try to look at it through their times. To try to be as objective as possible.

Peace

Yes, I agree that we must try to be as objectionable as possible.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

If Thomas More achieved sainthood because of his martyrdom (which is an established fact) then can one say that the other four individuals who were martyred (although for reasons we don't really know or understand) should also be considered saints?

Why shouldn't they be considered Saints also? I would hate to think a Denomination would practice discrimination

Reve 6:10 And they cry out to a voice, great, saying: "Till when the Owner/despothV <1203> the Holy and True not Thou are judging and avenging/out-justicing the blood of us out-of the ones homing upon the land?"

 

[katholikos]

Oh man, lets not go down this road. You know the answer to that already

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Oh man, lets not go down this road. You know the answer to that already

Oh. Silly me.........

Luke 21:7 They inquire of yet Him, saying, `Teacher!, when then these shall be, and what the Sign whenever may be being about these to be becoming/ginesqai <1096> (5738).

Reve 21:6 And He said to me: "it-has-become/gegonen <1096> (5754). I am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end.

 

[E.C.]

Why the threadnecromancy? Wasn't that deemed heresy by the First Internet Council of 1991?