razeontherock
Well-Known Member
I'll see you that and raise you, that Jesus Himself wouldn't contradict Scripture. (He does have a wonderful way of removing our own misconceptions of it, though)
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I find it amazing any one would put any thing over scripture short of direct contact with an apostle, angel, or Jesus Himself! Yet this is what we are debating here?
Acts 15 - and still Peter backslided later on
Among the sola Scripture faithful (how you view history) who had the same Holy Spirit, it was already disputed, already discussed, no conclusion. Apostles and Elders had to do something about it, get together, done deal, then binded on the faithful. This is not the case today no? I asked you previously how you settle them for today as you have the same Holy Spirit that the original communities who disputed it had, however they needed a higher authority. What about you? We're constantly hearing from non denominational sola Scripture adherants "The Holy Spirit leads us" yet that wasn't the case in Acts.In order to show us what the pattern is. Discuss, evidence, does it line up? It is written.
Sure, self interprets Scripture, like self interprets early Church Fathers, then self believes self is being lead by the Holy Spirit to conclude he has the important doctrines lined up yet this wasn't good enough in NT times as they needed a binding Infallible Council to settle the matter. Something is amiss and it appears God left the poor future sS faithful to create quite the mess for themselves as we see today.No idea how others settle disputes. I try to use scripture and earliest tradition.
So you admit that when Christ Breathed the Holy Spirit on the Apostles, it was a tad bit more special than when you received Him? You know, since they were Infallible and all.I find it amazing any one would put any thing over scripture short of direct contact with an apostle, angel, or Jesus Himself! Yet this is what we are debating here?
So you admit that when Christ Breathed the Holy Spirit on the Apostles, it was a tad bit more special than when you received Him? You know, since they were Infallible and all.
Love the strawman.So wait, now a property of the Person of the Holy Spirit is the law of diminishing returns? He's not really Eternal?!?
I'd consider myself on very thin ice, positing such a notion.
So how did Scripture come about?I find it amazing any one would put any thing over scripture short of direct contact with an apostle, angel, or Jesus Himself! Yet this is what we are debating here?
So you admit that when Christ Breathed the Holy Spirit on the Apostles, it was a tad bit more special than when you received Him? You know, since they were Infallible and all.
So how did Scripture come about?
Then the NT is suspect along with the NT Church teachings before the full Canon was written.And I never said they were infallible either
Among the sola Scripture faithful (how you view history) who had the same Holy Spirit, it was already disputed, already discussed, no conclusion. Apostles and Elders had to do something about it, get together, done deal, then binded on the faithful. This is not the case today no? I asked you previously how you settle them for today as you have the same Holy Spirit that the original communities who disputed it had, however they needed a higher authority. What about you? We're constantly hearing from non denominational sola Scripture adherants "The Holy Spirit leads us" yet that wasn't the case in Acts.
Sure, self interprets Scripture, like self interprets early Church Fathers, then self believes self is being lead by the Holy Spirit to conclude he has the important doctrines lined up yet this wasn't good enough in NT times as they needed a binding Infallible Council to settle the matter. Something is amiss and it appears God left the poor future sS faithful to create quite the mess for themselves as we see today.
So you admit that when Christ Breathed the Holy Spirit on the Apostles, it was a tad bit more special than when you received Him? You know, since they were Infallible and all.
Love the strawman.
Yes, they got together and the conclusion pleased the whole church. That hasn't happened since.
Originally Posted by Standing Up
No idea how others settle disputes. I try to use scripture and earliest tradition.
That's what you got out of my using scripture and earliest tradition? You realize that is what the very early church also did, right? They traced back a belief to its source to determine its apostolic veracity.
What I'm finding in these conversations, however, is an unwillingness by people to do the same. Or when it is done, they reject the early tradition for a later, developed tradition.
So, the bottom line here is groups actually use neither scripture or tradition for their beliefs, but only what the bishops ended up believing for some reason or another.
Then the NT is suspect along with the NT Church teachings before the full Canon was written.
I'm still not biting cause I really am trying to find out an answer you seemingly don't want to give. I'm asking you a direct question of two occurrences and how you resolve them today. IF they couldn't resolve them back then without the need of a visible, infallible entity to get it straight than how do you expect the same thing to be resolved today. You really think that God and the Apostles didn't see it coming, even when it happened in their time. Or they did and now it's every sS Christian for him/herself. Then you continue to say that Holy Spirit + self interpreting Scriptures + self interpreting early CF writings = true doctrine.That's what you got out of my using scripture and earliest tradition? You realize that is what the very early church also did, right? They traced back a belief to its source to determine its apostolic veracity.
What I'm finding in these conversations, however, is an unwillingness by people to do the same. Or when it is done, they reject the early tradition for a later, developed tradition.
So, the bottom line here is groups actually use neither scripture or tradition for their beliefs, but only what the bishops ended up believing for some reason or another.
I never said the Holy Spirit was diminishing at all. If in fact that's what you were getting at.Not a strawman at all - it's exactly what you're saying. All you need do is realize the ramifications of what you're saying ...
It wasn't, unless an infallible entity got involved.EXACTLY! And for some reason, people want to tie this into not knowing that Scripture is reliable?
......
Being sure isn't the same as being right......
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