St. Leo the Great

[judechild]

Today the Western Church celebrates the Feast of St. Leo the Great, a man who had quite an effect on history. Among other things, when Attila the Hun made his way into Northern Italy, and threatened Rome, Pope Leo met with him, and convinced him to leave the city in peace. But the second time the Pope tried to keep peace, he failed. The Vandels invaded Italy and plundered the city. Even so, Pope Leo managed to have all the Basillicas and Churches of the city set aside by the invaders as "safe zones" where no one would be robbed or killed.

Pope St. Leo the Great worked for peace all his life. Since much of the world today is in conflict - and the rest of it in danger of the same - hopefully his prayers will sustain us and bring to the peace of Christ again. Pope St. Leo's life exemplifies the Antiphon for the Canticle of Mary in the Breviary today: "Day after day Peter proclaims to the whole Church: You are Christ, the Son of the living God."

Ora pro nobis.

 

[Presentist]

But the second time the Pope tried to keep peace, he failed... hopefully his prayers will sustain us and bring to the peace of Christ again.

If he was not successful in keeping peace while he was alive, I won't pray to him for peace, I will pray to the Prince of Peace.

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[judechild]

Do you have the ability to write anything other than rhetorical devices? After all, the fact that he couldn't convince the Vandals not to attack has no baring on you praying to him and you know it. If I asked you "well, then, would you pray to him if he had succeeded in turning away the Vandals?" you would of course say "no." Your objection is irrelevent, but I'll respond to it as if you actually thought it was an issue:

If we are to say that person X should not be asked to help in a situation because the actions of others thwart the intentions of person X, then we shouldn't pray to Christ either - there's a lot of war in the world on His watch. If, on the other hand, we acknowledge that St. Leo the Great was able to save an extraordinary number of lives because of his actions during both invasions, and that it was because of the unreasonable actions of the Vandals that peace was not secured, then you have no substantial objection because he did work for and obtain peace that would not have been there had he not done what he did. Even in the Vandal invasion, the Churches in the city were safe zones where people could take shelter without fear of robbery or death.

In other news, you have continued your false dichotomy from the Sts. Simon and Jude thread when you say "I will pray to the Prince of Peace;" the implication being of course that I don't. The prayer from the breviary yesturday is "God our Father, you will never allow the power of hell to prevail against your Church, founded on the rock of the apostle Peter. let the prayers of Pope Leo the Great keep us faithful to Your truth and secure in Your peace." It is the peace of Christ that Pope Leo worked for during his life, and now that he prays for in Heaven.

You see, then, Leo prays to the Prince of Peace, and so do I and all other Catholics.

 

[Presentist]

Do you have the ability to write anything other than rhetorical devices?

You are making a lot of posts honoring deceased fellow humans, whereas I do not see you making posts honoring Jesus.

Even if it is okay to honor deceased fellow humans, I would think it would be the exception not the norm. We should honor Jesus many times more than we honor fellow humans.

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[judechild]

You are making a lot of posts honoring deceased fellow humans, whereas I do not see you making posts honoring Jesus.

Unless you are stalking me, I don't see how you would know whether that is true or not. In fact, I only see you on this "Mariology and Hagiography" forum; since the topics of this sub-forum are Mary and the Saints, what do you expect the focus of my posts to be? I am posting on the connection between the Body of Christ and God Himself.

Even if it is okay to honor deceased fellow humans, I would think it would be the exception not the norm. We should honor Jesus many times more than we honor fellow humans.

Of course. That is why the Saints are given Dulia (Honor), while the Holy Trinity is given Latria (Adoration). Catholics don't even say "we should honor Jesus many times more;" we say "we shouldn't just honor Jesus more - we should honor Jesus with a much higher kind of honor."

Catholic Churches are big - unpractically big. The reason is so that large numbers of people can celebrate the Eucharist, and can also "see" the glory of God portrayed in the beauty around them. The Saints in Heaven and the Angels are members of the Body of Christ as well, and they celebrate with us, praising God. That is why the priest says "and so with all the choirs of angels and saints, we proclaim Your glory and join in their unending hymn of praise." This is when the congregation sings "Holy, Holy, Holy Lord God of power and might! Heaven and Earth are filled with Your Glory. Hosanna in the highest. Blessed is He Who comes in the Name of the Lord. Hosanna in the highest."

St. Leo has the advantage of me. I want Christ to be praised, and so I ask him to present my prayers before Him. St. Leo is no longer tempted to sin, whereas I am. My prayer is not always sincere, and often self-centered; St. Leo does not have these problems, and so I ask for his prayers to make up for my lack. There is a reason that the last part of the hymn I gave you on the Sts. Simon and Jude thread says "'Till all the ransomed number who stand before the Throne, ascribe all power and glory and praise to God alone."

It is nice of you, though, to acknowledge the possibility that I am doing a good thing. Of course, what is "exception, not the norm"? Is it that we can worship the Saints, but only one day a week? Catholics do not give the same thing to Jesus and to the Saints. If giving honor to Christ and to the Saints is the same to you, when is the "exception" acceptable?

And so, I'm sorry that you don't like my posts; ignore them if they offend your delicate composition. But please don't continue to set up your false dichotomies, and make rhetorical objections that lack substance unless you expect me to respond to them.

 

[narnia59]

You are making a lot of posts honoring deceased fellow humans, whereas I do not see you making posts honoring Jesus.

Even if it is okay to honor deceased fellow humans, I would think it would be the exception not the norm. We should honor Jesus many times more than we honor fellow humans.

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Is there something in Scripture that gives us that ratio? It's okay to honor a person, as long as you honor Christ 3 times as much? 4? 50?

Paul says to give honor to those it is due. He makes no notation about 'this should be the exception however, not the norm'. He does not see it as taking away from Christ. Why do you?

He also says that those elders who have ruled well, such as Pope St. Leo, are worthy of double honor.

I would suggest it's a little strange for one to visit a religious discussion forum and enter a section specifically about the saints, and then feign disturbance because people are talking about 'gasp!' the saints. If you want a broader view of the honor of Christ in Catholic prayer life, I would suggest a perusal through the texts of the Catholic Mass and the liturgy of the hours (the two official prayers of the Catholic church) to better educate yourself about the amount of honoring of Christ that occurs. Round the clock, every day of the year, seven days a week.

 

[Presentist]

Catholics don't even say "we should honor Jesus many times more;" we say "we shouldn't just honor Jesus more - we should honor Jesus with a much higher kind of honor."

Of all the prayers by Catholics that I have heard at the Crisis Pregnancy Center I would say the prayers to Mary outnumber the prayers directly to God by 10 to 1 or more.

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My prayer is not always sincere, and often self-centered; St. Leo does not have these problems, and so I ask for his prayers to make up for my lack.

The Bible has a solution to your problem that does not involve St. Leo...

Romans 8:26 -- Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

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[judechild]

Of all the prayers by Catholics that I have heard at the Crisis Pregnancy Center I would say the prayers to Mary outnumber the prayers directly to God by 10 to 1 or more.

I asked you when "the exception" is acceptable; this response you give me is irrelevent. Of course, I see you are referencing the Rosary, which has an Our Father, followed by 10 Hail Marys. That is because the Rosary is a Marian devotion honoring Mary as the woman who was given the Most Blessed role that has ever been gifted by God. Jesus honors Mary, and so do we; Jesus gives the most perfect honor to a Mother that has ever occured, and we love Mary because Christ loves her. Each decade of Hail Marys is ended by a "Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit - as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be; world without end. Amen." And then with a prayer for the salvation of souls which acknowledges that Christ is the One Who saves: "Oh my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of Hell; lead all souls to Heaven, especially those most in need of Thy Mercy."

Now would you like to tell me when "the exception" is acceptable, or does that inconvenence you from hunting for a weak point in our theology?

Romans 8:26 -- Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Yes, I love the Book of Romans; the fact that "I know not how to pray as I ought" remains. After all, the Spirit interceeds always, but you're not going to tell me "therefore, do not pray." I am a very inconsistent and immoral creature who rarely thinks about whether my prayer is worthy of Him. I do not have the audacity to think that I, who am fickle, am as close to God as those who He has taken to Himself in Heaven. If "the fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful" (James 5:16), who is more righteous than those who are in the Presence of God?

Even the prayer to a Saint is a prayer to God. In the Book of Tobit, the Angel Raphael claims the names of Azariah, Hananiah, Nathaniah, and Shemaiah which mean respectively: Yahweh helps, Yahweh is merciful, Yahweh gives, and Yahweh hears. By looking at this Saint, then, we are reminded of all these things.

 

[Presentist]

Even the prayer to a Saint is a prayer to God.

The prayer that Rhamiel has as their tag line is not "a prayer to God"...

"O angel of God, my holy guardian, given to me from heaven, enlighten me this day, and save me from all evil. Instruct me in doing good deeds, and set me on the path of salvation. Amen."

That prayer is not asking someone to petition God on your behalf, it is asking for their direct assistance.

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[DrBubbaLove]

The prayer that Rhamiel has as their tag line is not "a prayer to God"...

"O angel of God, my holy guardian, given to me from heaven, enlighten me this day, and save me from all evil. Instruct me in doing good deeds, and set me on the path of salvation. Amen."

That prayer is not asking someone to petition God on your behalf, it is asking for their direct assistance.

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Actually no it is not. It is encouraging and acknowledging a being who has been assigned by God to help enlighten, fend off evil, and generally attempt to help us on our journey. There is a difference.

 

[Presentist]

Actually no it is not. It is encouraging and acknowledging a being who has been assigned by God to help enlighten, fend off evil, and generally attempt to help us on our journey. There is a difference.

That petition is directed to an angel and not to God. In addition, it does not ask the angel to petition God.

"O angel of God, my holy guardian, given to me from heaven, enlighten me this day, and save me from all evil. Instruct me in doing good deeds, and set me on the path of salvation. Amen."

I would be okay with praying to God all the time and getting to Heaven and have God say "why didn't you pray to the other saints more often" because I would say "I am sorry, I thought you could handle all of my problems."

I would not want to get to Heaven after spending much time in prayer to other saints and have God say "why didn't you pray to me more often?"

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[judechild]

That petition is directed to an angel and not to God. In addition, it does not ask the angel to petition God.

"O angel of God, my holy guardian, given to me from heaven, enlighten me this day, and save me from all evil. Instruct me in doing good deeds, and set me on the path of salvation. Amen."

The angel is a being too, and the angel is not being prayed to in order to do something that God can't or won't do. God gave the angel to the person in order to do the things the pray-er is asking. The telos, or end, is God. When you ask another person to pray for you (or in other matters, to instruct you or protect you), you are not saying "because God will not help, you must." If you are very ill, you don't just pray. You go to a doctor, but that is not itself a distrust in God's power. The prayer, protection, and instruction from the angel ultimately come from and are ordered to God; the angel is the personal instrument of those graces.

I would be okay with praying to God all the time and getting to Heaven and have God say "why didn't you pray to the other saints more often" because I would say "I am sorry, I thought you could handle all of my problems."

If I ever read a post where you ask for someone to pray for you, or you ask people to pray for a cause, I will remind you that you apparently think that God can't handle the problem being prayed for.

I would not want to get to Heaven after spending much time in prayer to other saints and have God say "why didn't you pray to me more often?"

You are a fine one to judge how much a person prays to God; do you know each of us as well as you think you know Catholicism? I think I'm dying for another of your lectures on the Catechism.

The Catholic Church, at every hour, is praying through the Mass and the Liturgy of the Hours, in union with the angels and saints. Becuase the Mass is a representation of the Sacrifice of Calvary, we fulfill the prophecy "From the rising of the sun to its setting, my name is great among the nations; Incense offerings are made to my name everywhere, and a pure offering; For my name is great among the nations, says the LORD of hosts" (Malichi 1:11). Prayer is not a solitary thing for us - as it is for you. We pray from the perspective of being members of the Church.

That's why I predict one day many Evangelical churches will abandon large rooms and become more like hindu temples in that regard. If salvation and prayer are solitary things, why pray together at all?

I realize I'm inconveniencing you when I ask you questions, but it was you that said honoring another person is okay, as long as it is "the exception, not the norm" so, for the third time: what do you mean?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

That petition is directed to an angel and not to God. In addition, it does not ask the angel to petition God.

"O angel of God, my holy guardian, given to me from heaven, enlighten me this day, and save me from all evil. Instruct me in doing good deeds, and set me on the path of salvation. Amen."

I would be okay with praying to God all the time and getting to Heaven and have God say "why didn't you pray to the other saints more often" because I would say "I am sorry, I thought you could handle all of my problems."

I would not want to get to Heaven after spending much time in prayer to other saints and have God say "why didn't you pray to me more often?"

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Again, look at the communication. The angel is being encouraged/acknowledged/crediting to do/doing what God has directed that being to do. Have we ever encouraged a pastor, a social worker, a "praise team" leader,....etc. Do we conclude such actions are wrong also?

To conlude that communication to the angel is somehow wrong, even sinful would make any vocal communication to another encouraging them to do what God has directed wrong and sinful. Am not sure how to logically make that conclusion. If God has directed someone to do something and we know it, why would it be wrong for us to acknowledge and encourage them?

 

[Presentist]

To conlude that communication to the angel is somehow wrong, even sinful would make any vocal communication to another encouraging them to do what God has directed wrong and sinful.

If you think that prayer (communication) to an angel is the same as communication to a fellow living christian, does that mean you would say to your friend Bob...

"O Bob, my friend, given to me from heaven, enlighten me this day, and save me from all evil. Instruct me in doing good deeds, and set me on the path of salvation."

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[DrBubbaLove]

If you think that prayer (communication) to an angel is the same as communication to a fellow living christian, does that mean you would say to your friend Bob...

"O Bob, my friend, given to me from heaven, enlighten me this day, and save me from all evil. Instruct me in doing good deeds, and set me on the path of salvation."

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How does one communicate with an angel except by asking/prayer?

Turn the Bob question around. If I truly believed Bob is assigned by God as my personal guardian in this life then what possible reason would I have for NOT encouraging him to help me?

A prayer to a Saint or angel is a request, just like our prayers to God can be.

 

[Aeneas]

If you think that prayer (communication) to an angel is the same as communication to a fellow living christian, does that mean you would say to your friend Bob...

"O Bob, my friend, given to me from heaven, enlighten me this day, and save me from all evil. Instruct me in doing good deeds, and set me on the path of salvation."

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A bit flowery, but I don't see why not.

 

[Presentist]

A bit flowery, but I don't see why not.

What church do you attend, and would anyone else on this thread be willing to pray something like...

"O Bob, my friend, given to me from heaven, enlighten me this day, and save me from all evil. Instruct me in doing good deeds, and set me on the path of salvation."

Where you are asking someone other than God to "save you from all evil" and to "set you on the path of salvation?"

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[judechild]

Every priest and religious prays the Canticle of Zechariah every morning which syas "Blessed be the Lord, the God of Israel; He has come to His people and set them free." No matter how many times you say it, Catholics do not say or believe that anyone other than Christ is Savior. The fact that we are more relational than your legalist understanding of salvation is a different matter.

The guardian angel is being asked to protect the person from evil because there is the opposite being is at work too.

 

[Presentist]

The guardian angel is being asked to protect the person from evil because there is the opposite being is at work too.

So you are not just asking them to ask God to protect you?

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[judechild]

If you mean in the final sense, yes; God is the one from whom any grace comes from. If you mean in the intermediate sense, no. Was Paul asking for food from the Corinthians because God couldn't provide it?

A prayer to a Saint is a prayer to God as well, because nothing the saint does is outside of God's will. In the case of another angel: In the Book of Tobit, the Angel Raphael claims the names of Azariah, Hananiah, Nathaniah, and Shemaiah which mean respectively: Yahweh helps, Yahweh is merciful, Yahweh gives, and Yahweh hears. By looking at this Saint, then, we are reminded of all these things.

Do you ever get tired of not engaging the topic-at-hand?