ST. John Calvin

mont974x4 · Oct 25, 2007

Benedicta00 said:
Yep...

Mont, the bible says that our salvation is conditional, based on our faith and if we endure to the end or if we squander it and let it be trampled under the feet of men.

I think maybe if you truly read the whole book of Matthew you may gain some much needed insight. We were never guaranteed salvation upfront, in the past tense. How is it even possible to have something in the past tense?

There's enough threads on eternal security as well. I pray your eyes and your ears will be opened to His Truth and that you don't simply restate the RCC dogma....study for yourself.

mont974x4 · Oct 25, 2007

NASB
Mat 5:1 When Jesus saw the crowds, He went up on the mountain; and after He sat down, His disciples came to Him.
Mat 5:2 He opened His mouth and began to teach them, saying,
Mat 5:3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:4 "Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
Mat 5:5 "Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.
Mat 5:6 "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.
Mat 5:7 "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.
Mat 5:8 "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
Mat 5:9 "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
Mat 5:10 "Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:11 "Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me.

This is the beginning of the sermon on the mount. It is said to living people. We can be, and are, blessed on this earth, in this life. It is not depended on how the RCC sees us but on our relationship with Christ.

Benedicta00 · Oct 25, 2007

mont974x4 said:
NASB
Mat 5:1 When Jesus saw the crowds, He went up on the mountain; and after He sat down, His disciples came to Him.
Mat 5:2 He opened His mouth and began to teach them, saying,
Mat 5:3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:4 "Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
Mat 5:5 "Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.
Mat 5:6 "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.
Mat 5:7 "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.
Mat 5:8 "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
Mat 5:9 "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
Mat 5:10 "Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:11 "Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me.

This is the beginning of the sermon on the mount. It is said to living people. We can be, and are, blessed on this earth, in this life. It is not depended on how the RCC sees us but on our relationship with Christ.

Have I said otherwise? You have done nothing but make a satrwman's argument.

We can be blessed NOW, that is my point, NOW is all that we have. The past is dead, we can not go back and change our past and the future is unborn still, all we have is this moment right now. We can't judge the future... it does not exist yet!

But it is never over until it's over... our growing in blessedness does not end until we are in heaven...and when we are, THEN we can be called Bless-ed. But now, what we are has not yet appeared... does not mean it's not there, but it is not declared until it's over and then we can be judged.

You can not judge someone until their lives on this earth have completely ended. You can not make a judgement on the future. This is illogical to think you can.

You can not turn to the person next to you in a church pew and judge the fruits of their whole life while they are still alive Mont... it is illogical yo think you can.

What does the bible say? The bible says, He who endures to the end will be saved...

Honestly Mont, how can you still argue against that? you are arguing against scripture, not the Church.

mont974x4 · Oct 25, 2007

Why should we judge the dead? We are never told to do so. In fact, when we are told to judge each other in Scritpture it is always the living brothers and sisters, fellow saints.

You say I'm being illogical?

I am not arguing Scripture against Scripture, I am applying all applicable verses and arguning against unscriptural teachings.

Benedicta00 · Oct 25, 2007

mont974x4 said:
There's enough threads on eternal security as well. I pray your eyes and your ears will be opened to His Truth and that you don't simply restate the RCC dogma....study for yourself.

No, I pray your eyes will open up and you will someday actually READ the scripture in context and not skip over the verses you have been arguing against.

You dilemma is not with the Catholic Church... she is biblical. Your dilemma is with scripture... I hope you are able to someday reconcile these verses that blatantly contradict your premises.

mont974x4 · Oct 25, 2007

Benedicta00 · Oct 25, 2007

You aren't making any sense... the soul lives forever, it's where we need to be concern with.

God alone judges a person's soul, what is in his heart, what they knew and what they were incapable of knowing based on the light and grace He gave to each.

We don't go there, Mont.

What the Church does, is judge the FRUIT (like Christ told us to do) of a person's life... not their soul at death. All judgement belongs to God, not us.

I am asking you flat out, how can we successfully judge the fruits of a person's life if they still alive. What if we judge their fruit good and they fall away? What if we judge them as bad and they convert?

mont974x4 · Oct 25, 2007

Look at the person, see how they live their life and you will see their fruit. They don't need to be dead for us to do that, in fact, in light of our duty as brothers and sisters by the time they are dead it is too late. They may have died in their sin because no one ehdl them accountable and false prophets would be left unechecked. Your, or the RCC, position makes no sense.

Our judgment of them has no impact on whether or not they are saved/saints. It has to do with holding brothers and sisters accountable so that they live lives that honor and glorify God. Notice when Paul tells us to hold people accountable in his letter (1 Cor) he is talking about living people who profess Christ, and tells us not to judge those outside the church.

It is really quite simple when you leave behind the RCC teachings and focus on what the Bible actually says.

jckstraw72 · Oct 25, 2007

Romans 6:17
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Romans 16:17
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

Ephesians 4:14
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

1 Timothy 1:3
As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,

1 Timothy 1:10
For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

1 Timothy 4:6
If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

1 Timothy 4:13
Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.

1 Timothy 4:16
Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

1 Timothy 5:17
Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

1 Timothy 6:1
Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.

1 Timothy 6:3
If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2 Timothy 4:2
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

Titus 1:9
Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

Titus 2:1
But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

Titus 2:7
In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,

Hebrews 13:9
Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.

2 John 1:9
Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

2 John 1:10
If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

Galatians 1:8
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Galatians 1:9
As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

..... id say the NT is pretty big on doctrine ....

Rick Otto · Oct 25, 2007

...and the epitaph read:
"Death By Concordance"
P )

Benedicta00 · Oct 26, 2007

mont974x4 said:
Look at the person, see how they live their life and you will see their fruit. They don't need to be dead for us to do that, in fact, in light of our duty as brothers and sisters by the time they are dead it is too late. They may have died in their sin because no one ehdl them accountable and false prophets would be left unechecked. Your, or the RCC, position makes no sense.

Our judgment of them has no impact on whether or not they are saved/saints. It has to do with holding brothers and sisters accountable so that they live lives that honor and glorify God. Notice when Paul tells us to hold people accountable in his letter (1 Cor) he is talking about living people who profess Christ, and tells us not to judge those outside the church.

It is really quite simple when you leave behind the RCC teachings and focus on what the Bible actually says.

I never said we aren't to judge the fruits of a person... We are to judge fruits but to declare someone a saint in the past tense when they are still alive? That's illogical. We cant declare future saints, the future is unborn.

We, (all the baptized) were saved, and now with every passing day we are being saved and we will be (future event) if we endure to the end. The bible says so Mont, you are ignoring those three words, those who persevere to the end will be saved.

What we can not do is judge the whole life of a person when they are still alive and call them a saint becuase the bible says, those who go to the end will be called that.

When they die, what we have is hope (it is a virture like faith is, you know...) that based the fruits their life revealed, past tense, that they went on to be with the Lord.

Benedicta00 · Oct 26, 2007

jckstraw72 said:
Romans 6:17
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Romans 16:17
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

Ephesians 4:14
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

1 Timothy 1:3
As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,

1 Timothy 1:10
For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

1 Timothy 4:6
If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

1 Timothy 4:13
Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.

1 Timothy 4:16
Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

1 Timothy 5:17
Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

1 Timothy 6:1
Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.

1 Timothy 6:3
If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2 Timothy 4:2
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

Titus 1:9
Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

Titus 2:1
But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

Titus 2:7
In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,

Hebrews 13:9
Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.

2 John 1:9
Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

2 John 1:10
If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

Galatians 1:8
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Galatians 1:9
As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

..... id say the NT is pretty big on doctrine ....

Now you know they're going to come back with 50 other verses that trump yours.

God bless that sola scripture.

simonthezealot · Oct 26, 2007

Benedicta00 said:
God bless that sola scripture.

I think you mean God blessED that sola scriptura!

Rick Otto · Oct 26, 2007

...or as GWBush would say, "Solar Scripture".

mont974x4 · Oct 26, 2007

I have noticed that you orthodox and rc's are big on reading more into posts than what is actually written. Not once did I say doctrine wasn't important.

Benedicta00 · Oct 26, 2007

mont974x4 said:
I have noticed that you orthodox and rc's are big on reading more into posts than what is actually written. Not once did I say doctrine wasn't important.

you said:
Our unity isn't in doctrines but in Christ

...

mont974x4 · Oct 26, 2007

Those quotes don't prove your point.

Benedicta00 · Oct 26, 2007

mont974x4 said:
Those quotes don't prove your point.

well it's your false dichotomy... unity in doctrine or unity in Christ.

Jack was just showing you that you were stating a logical fallacy.

Reformationist · Oct 26, 2007

I've been away for a few days so I apologize for getting back to the discussion. I can see I'm far behind so I'll try to address any posts I can as expediently as possible.

thereselittleflower said:
Well, since you want to accuse the Catholic Church of operating on an unbiblical basis, it is now up to you to PROVE it.

Prove it to whom? You? Doubt that I could do such a thing. It's similar to "proving" to the non-believer that their lack of faith is unjustifiable. Without God enlightening someone to the truth, they remain blind. The fact that you remain blind to the truth proves, at least to me, associating with arguably the largest and richest Christian denomination and being involved in endless man made traditions are not sufficient to see the light. God, and God alone, convicts. I can share the truth with you but, unfortunately, have no power to ensure that you embrace it.

Otherwise, stop slamming our Church and faith.

As soon as your denomination ceases preaching falsehoods and your faith represents an utter reliance on the grace of God for your justification and the means by which He imputes that justification to you I'll be happy to stop "slamming" your denomination and your faith.

If we want to get into what is unbiblical, well, let's look:

Your words do not show a proper understanding of God's mercy at all.

Your words show that you believe that once your sins are forgiven, they are forgiven forever, right? No chance they can be recalled and you made accountable for them, right?

For all of your bluster, I would think you had a clue what an atonement is. I guess not. Okay, so, the Gospel reveals to us that Christ, who was without sin, became sin, that we could be justified. His obedience unto death is the merit by which we attain eternal life, for when we are as He is before the judgment seat of the Almighty, it is only the righteousness of Christ that will vindicate us. Christ has actually suffered the penalty for the sins of His people and it is His work of obedience that warrants the dispensation of God's mercy to we, the undeserving. So, if you mean to ask me, will God ever hold me accountable for the sins for which Christ has atoned, I answer, not in the eternal sense. All will give reckoning to the Judge and it is our Advocate that will serve as our justification.

mont974x4 · Oct 26, 2007

Benedicta00 said:
well it's your false dichotomy... unity in doctrine or unity in Christ.

Jack was just showing you that you were stating a logical fallacy.

Nope, ya'll are just showing a basic lack in understanding what I am really saying and I really don't know how I can be more clear, especially with you habitually claiming that I say things that I don't.

That's OK, tho, as it is part of posting on message boards.

ST. John Calvin

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Doin' that whole Orthodox thing

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have you not read,what God has spoken unto you?

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Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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